Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these AffCom's issues, I ask you to publicly respond to the questions below. (I have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
(I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier for low-involved folks to get the core part)
*Questions:*
1. *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented below to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles (especially Transparency and Accountability)?* 1. *If not, has Manavpreet done already something to rectify AffCom's activity to be in full alignment with them? What has Manavpreet done?* 2. *If yes, please briefly clarify how (in your opinion) they are showing Transparency and Accountability.* 2. *What is Manavpreet's role in the AffCom's happenings presented below?* (have Manavpreet supported / encouraged / decided them? or have Manavpreet tried to prevent them / discourage them? or have Manavpreet just fully neutraly executed decisions that leaded to them? have Manavpreet presented objections that the decisions are against Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles or similar rules / recommendations / ...? or something else? please be concrete) 3. As much of the presented cases show AffCom's issues about clear, proactive communication, *do you consider Manavpreet to be capable enough to clearly, proactively, helpfully communicate in the high responsibility role of Movement Charter Drafting Committee member?* 1. *If it is not Manavpreet who is the source of AffCom's communication issues, who is?* 4. *Do you believe that Manavpreet will not "import" AffCom-like issues to the Movement Charter Drafting Committee? If yes, on what basis?*
*Context:*
I am in contact with Manavpreet mostly because of her role of Staff Liaison of Affiliations Committee https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee (AffCom), which relates with my roles of (ex)Chair of some Wikimedia Affiliations. While AffCom have for years reputation of slowresponsedness, it was understanable because of its structure (which, in turn, is understanable because of its high responsibilities) and was rather only a little anoyance, not a big deal. But that have changed (for worse) at least several months ago and AffCom is still very reluctant to provide more information about it. Several specific cases for ilustration:
- AffCom put on hold the recognition of User Group Esperanto and Free Knowledge https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio as a Thematic Organisation and informed the UG only reactively (after my question), after unreasonably long time (after the expected deadline for recognition) and provided false information as the reason; even after several messages AffCom haven't revealed the requested information about the pausing - In February 2021, Meta admins deferred to AffCom the determination of some specific hard Requests for deletion https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion/Archives/2020#Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's_Annual_Report_2018 with intention to implement AffCom's determination; despite Manavpreet (in her official WMF role) have considered it as a priority concern https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644, Affcom have not provided its determination to Meta admins even after 7 months (as stated by 3 Meta admins - 2 of them confirming publicly: Xaosflux https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21998260 and Camouflaged Mirage https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22000846 (by their alternative account)) - AffCom was for several months totally unresponsive about proposed recommendations to make WUG Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia to obey its User Group Agreement - For quite long time AffCom have been requiring (that time not yet a WUG) Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia (WUG WMSVK) to change its legal name to be recognized as a WM User Group, what blocked the recognition for more than year, but suddenly after the recognition , AffCom agreed to accept Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's prefered official name which was for long time totaly unaccepted by AffCom - Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me even after my explicit requests) - AffCom is for months in silence about various questions and proposals about WUG WMSVK for whom is AffCom fully responsible since December 2020 - As AffCom in December 2020 took full responsibility for WUG WMSVK, AffCom is fully reponsible for: - WUG WMSVK falsely publicly presents the meeting on March 2019 as a valid Meeting of General Assembly http://wikimedia.sk//wp-content/uploads/2019/07/WMSK-VZ-20190309-ZAP.pdf despite it clearly violates WUG WMSVK's bylaw and several WUG WMSVK's board members have already stated it, also publicly - It is still not clear whether WUG WMSVK's meeting in March 2021 was a valid Meeting of General Assembly, as evidence suggest it was not, despite AffCom being repeatedly warned in advance about this possibility - WMF is publicly hosting documents produced by WUG WMSVK that contain false, defamatory information about myself (en https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/en , sk https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/sk) despite Manavpreet assurance that WUG WMSVK will rectify them https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644 - WUG WMSVK is no longer publicly presenting its *Annual plans* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Annual_agendas despite its tradition of presenting them publicly, and is not presenting publicly its *Financial reports* and *Annual Budgets* despite the tradition of publicly presenting such documents and having the capacity to create at least *Annual budget* since at least 2018. All of these 3 documents are required to be prepared every year by WMSVK's Board.
I understand that Manavpreet personally is not an AffCom and not a voting member. At the same time, I understand that Manavpreet is a paid staff member whose job is liaisoning for AffCom and is often in contact with at least some affiliations and proposed affiliations. So Manavpreet's responsibility to AffCom is still present, although I do not know what is its span.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Manavpreet_Kaur#Your_role_in_AffCo... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22236019
Looking for your answers! KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
Michal,
Don't be absurd. *Do not use this list for personal attacks*.
You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/en with others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has interacted with you about it.
Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her* character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe her an apology.
We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times. Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.
SJ
(PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone wants to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, "*Investigation of possible AffCom*...")
I echo SJ's words. This is ad hominem, especially against someone who has been a part of the Wikimedia community much before being a part of WMF, continues to remain a part of her home community in volunteer capacity, and has expanded her volunteerism to contribute to global roles. That, IMO, is a full-time contribution to the Wikimedia movement in both personal and professional capacity. It's shameful that the title of this email includes Manavpreet's name and goes into with character assassination. Won't it be better to frame, if you doubt the process, the process as faulty and cite reasons rather than attacking an individual Wikimedian? It would be useful to fix a faulty process rather than attacking an individual based on circumstances which might dissuade them? Not to mention, this movement is already struggling with low participation of women, LGBTQ+ individuals, people with disabilities and indigenous members/groups. Such a behaviour would only help grow that gap further.
Subhashish
On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com wrote:
Michal,
Don't be absurd. *Do not use this list for personal attacks*.
You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/en with others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has interacted with you about it.
Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her* character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe her an apology.
We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times. Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.
SJ
(PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone wants to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, "*Investigation of possible AffCom*...") _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi Michal,
We would like to clarify if this communication blast received clearance through an en banc resolution of your committee or entirely your personal decision? If the entire affcom was bypassed or did not explicitly authorise your action, your position will also be at risk.
Thanks.
Kind regards,
Butch
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 9:13 PM Subhashish psubhashish@gmail.com wrote:
I echo SJ's words. This is ad hominem, especially against someone who has been a part of the Wikimedia community much before being a part of WMF, continues to remain a part of her home community in volunteer capacity, and has expanded her volunteerism to contribute to global roles. That, IMO, is a full-time contribution to the Wikimedia movement in both personal and professional capacity. It's shameful that the title of this email includes Manavpreet's name and goes into with character assassination. Won't it be better to frame, if you doubt the process, the process as faulty and cite reasons rather than attacking an individual Wikimedian? It would be useful to fix a faulty process rather than attacking an individual based on circumstances which might dissuade them? Not to mention, this movement is already struggling with low participation of women, LGBTQ+ individuals, people with disabilities and indigenous members/groups. Such a behaviour would only help grow that gap further.
Subhashish
On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com wrote:
Michal,
Don't be absurd. *Do not use this list for personal attacks*.
You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/en with others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has interacted with you about it.
Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her* character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe her an apology.
We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times. Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.
SJ
(PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone wants to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, "*Investigation of possible AffCom*...") _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi.
Just a small factual update:
In the presented list of issues there is: "Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me even after my explicit requests)"
Thanks to Matej Grochal, the Chair of WUG WMSVK, who has shed light on this topic! He confirmed that AffCom did **not** make this untruthful communication to WUG WMSVK (as he had stated before). Rather, Grochal / WMSVK have connected some data points in a wrong way, came to wrong conclusion and presented it as a clear truth about someone else behaviour. Although, it would be definitely helpful if AffCom would clearly stated it when I have asked it. So we could move forward sooner and not waste time, effort and energy asking AffCom for answer and WUG WMSVK for proof.
Regards KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
po 25. 10. 2021 o 12:32 Michal Matúšov kubof.hromoslav@gmail.com napísal(a):
Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these AffCom's issues, I ask you to publicly respond to the questions below. (I have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
(I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier for low-involved folks to get the core part)
*Questions:*
- *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented below
to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles (especially Transparency and Accountability)?* 1. *If not, has Manavpreet done already something to rectify AffCom's activity to be in full alignment with them? What has Manavpreet done?* 2. *If yes, please briefly clarify how (in your opinion) they are showing Transparency and Accountability.* 2. *What is Manavpreet's role in the AffCom's happenings presented below?* (have Manavpreet supported / encouraged / decided them? or have Manavpreet tried to prevent them / discourage them? or have Manavpreet just fully neutraly executed decisions that leaded to them? have Manavpreet presented objections that the decisions are against Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles or similar rules / recommendations / ...? or something else? please be concrete) 3. As much of the presented cases show AffCom's issues about clear, proactive communication, *do you consider Manavpreet to be capable enough to clearly, proactively, helpfully communicate in the high responsibility role of Movement Charter Drafting Committee member?* 1. *If it is not Manavpreet who is the source of AffCom's communication issues, who is?* 4. *Do you believe that Manavpreet will not "import" AffCom-like issues to the Movement Charter Drafting Committee? If yes, on what basis?*
*Context:*
I am in contact with Manavpreet mostly because of her role of Staff Liaison of Affiliations Committee https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee (AffCom), which relates with my roles of (ex)Chair of some Wikimedia Affiliations. While AffCom have for years reputation of slowresponsedness, it was understanable because of its structure (which, in turn, is understanable because of its high responsibilities) and was rather only a little anoyance, not a big deal. But that have changed (for worse) at least several months ago and AffCom is still very reluctant to provide more information about it. Several specific cases for ilustration:
- AffCom put on hold the recognition of User Group Esperanto and Free
Knowledge https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio as a Thematic Organisation and informed the UG only reactively (after my question), after unreasonably long time (after the expected deadline for recognition) and provided false information as the reason; even after several messages AffCom haven't revealed the requested information about the pausing
- In February 2021, Meta admins deferred to AffCom the determination
of some specific hard Requests for deletion https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion/Archives/2020#Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's_Annual_Report_2018 with intention to implement AffCom's determination; despite Manavpreet (in her official WMF role) have considered it as a priority concern https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644, Affcom have not provided its determination to Meta admins even after 7 months (as stated by 3 Meta admins - 2 of them confirming publicly: Xaosflux https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21998260 and Camouflaged Mirage https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22000846 (by their alternative account))
- AffCom was for several months totally unresponsive about proposed
recommendations to make WUG Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia to obey its User Group Agreement
- For quite long time AffCom have been requiring (that time not yet a
WUG) Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia (WUG WMSVK) to change its legal name to be recognized as a WM User Group, what blocked the recognition for more than year, but suddenly after the recognition , AffCom agreed to accept Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's prefered official name which was for long time totaly unaccepted by AffCom
- Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was
me who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me even after my explicit requests)
- AffCom is for months in silence about various questions and
proposals about WUG WMSVK for whom is AffCom fully responsible since December 2020
- As AffCom in December 2020 took full responsibility for WUG WMSVK,
AffCom is fully reponsible for: - WUG WMSVK falsely publicly presents the meeting on March 2019 as a valid Meeting of General Assembly http://wikimedia.sk//wp-content/uploads/2019/07/WMSK-VZ-20190309-ZAP.pdf despite it clearly violates WUG WMSVK's bylaw and several WUG WMSVK's board members have already stated it, also publicly - It is still not clear whether WUG WMSVK's meeting in March 2021 was a valid Meeting of General Assembly, as evidence suggest it was not, despite AffCom being repeatedly warned in advance about this possibility - WMF is publicly hosting documents produced by WUG WMSVK that contain false, defamatory information about myself (en https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/en , sk https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/sk) despite Manavpreet assurance that WUG WMSVK will rectify them https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644 - WUG WMSVK is no longer publicly presenting its *Annual plans* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Annual_agendas despite its tradition of presenting them publicly, and is not presenting publicly its *Financial reports* and *Annual Budgets* despite the tradition of publicly presenting such documents and having the capacity to create at least *Annual budget* since at least 2018. All of these 3 documents are required to be prepared every year by WMSVK's Board.
I understand that Manavpreet personally is not an AffCom and not a voting member. At the same time, I understand that Manavpreet is a paid staff member whose job is liaisoning for AffCom and is often in contact with at least some affiliations and proposed affiliations. So Manavpreet's responsibility to AffCom is still present, although I do not know what is its span.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Manavpreet_Kaur#Your_role_in_AffCo... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22236019
Looking for your answers! KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
Michal,
stop those personal attacks. No one lies to you, nor to anyone else. Matej is a good and fair chairman. I am exhausted from watching time and again your unfounded accusations on Matej, me, and whoever you mind. Please, stop it!
Radoslava Semanová Vice-chair of Wikimedians Slovakia User group
ut 26. 10. 2021 o 21:55 Michal Matúšov kubof.hromoslav@gmail.com napísal(a):
Hi.
Just a small factual update:
In the presented list of issues there is: "Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me even after my explicit requests)"
Thanks to Matej Grochal, the Chair of WUG WMSVK, who has shed light on this topic! He confirmed that AffCom did **not** make this untruthful communication to WUG WMSVK (as he had stated before). Rather, Grochal / WMSVK have connected some data points in a wrong way, came to wrong conclusion and presented it as a clear truth about someone else behaviour. Although, it would be definitely helpful if AffCom would clearly stated it when I have asked it. So we could move forward sooner and not waste time, effort and energy asking AffCom for answer and WUG WMSVK for proof.
Regards KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
po 25. 10. 2021 o 12:32 Michal Matúšov kubof.hromoslav@gmail.com napísal(a):
Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these AffCom's issues, I ask you to publicly respond to the questions below. (I have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
(I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier for low-involved folks to get the core part)
*Questions:*
- *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented
below to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles (especially Transparency and Accountability)?* 1. *If not, has Manavpreet done already something to rectify AffCom's activity to be in full alignment with them? What has Manavpreet done?* 2. *If yes, please briefly clarify how (in your opinion) they are showing Transparency and Accountability.* 2. *What is Manavpreet's role in the AffCom's happenings presented below?* (have Manavpreet supported / encouraged / decided them? or have Manavpreet tried to prevent them / discourage them? or have Manavpreet just fully neutraly executed decisions that leaded to them? have Manavpreet presented objections that the decisions are against Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles or similar rules / recommendations / ...? or something else? please be concrete) 3. As much of the presented cases show AffCom's issues about clear, proactive communication, *do you consider Manavpreet to be capable enough to clearly, proactively, helpfully communicate in the high responsibility role of Movement Charter Drafting Committee member?* 1. *If it is not Manavpreet who is the source of AffCom's communication issues, who is?* 4. *Do you believe that Manavpreet will not "import" AffCom-like issues to the Movement Charter Drafting Committee? If yes, on what basis?*
*Context:*
I am in contact with Manavpreet mostly because of her role of Staff Liaison of Affiliations Committee https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee (AffCom), which relates with my roles of (ex)Chair of some Wikimedia Affiliations. While AffCom have for years reputation of slowresponsedness, it was understanable because of its structure (which, in turn, is understanable because of its high responsibilities) and was rather only a little anoyance, not a big deal. But that have changed (for worse) at least several months ago and AffCom is still very reluctant to provide more information about it. Several specific cases for ilustration:
- AffCom put on hold the recognition of User Group Esperanto and Free
Knowledge https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio as a Thematic Organisation and informed the UG only reactively (after my question), after unreasonably long time (after the expected deadline for recognition) and provided false information as the reason; even after several messages AffCom haven't revealed the requested information about the pausing
- In February 2021, Meta admins deferred to AffCom the determination
of some specific hard Requests for deletion https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion/Archives/2020#Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's_Annual_Report_2018 with intention to implement AffCom's determination; despite Manavpreet (in her official WMF role) have considered it as a priority concern https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644, Affcom have not provided its determination to Meta admins even after 7 months (as stated by 3 Meta admins - 2 of them confirming publicly: Xaosflux https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21998260 and Camouflaged Mirage https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22000846 (by their alternative account))
- AffCom was for several months totally unresponsive about proposed
recommendations to make WUG Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia to obey its User Group Agreement
- For quite long time AffCom have been requiring (that time not yet a
WUG) Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia (WUG WMSVK) to change its legal name to be recognized as a WM User Group, what blocked the recognition for more than year, but suddenly after the recognition , AffCom agreed to accept Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's prefered official name which was for long time totaly unaccepted by AffCom
- Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was
me who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me even after my explicit requests)
- AffCom is for months in silence about various questions and
proposals about WUG WMSVK for whom is AffCom fully responsible since December 2020
- As AffCom in December 2020 took full responsibility for WUG WMSVK,
AffCom is fully reponsible for: - WUG WMSVK falsely publicly presents the meeting on March 2019 as a valid Meeting of General Assembly http://wikimedia.sk//wp-content/uploads/2019/07/WMSK-VZ-20190309-ZAP.pdf despite it clearly violates WUG WMSVK's bylaw and several WUG WMSVK's board members have already stated it, also publicly - It is still not clear whether WUG WMSVK's meeting in March 2021 was a valid Meeting of General Assembly, as evidence suggest it was not, despite AffCom being repeatedly warned in advance about this possibility - WMF is publicly hosting documents produced by WUG WMSVK that contain false, defamatory information about myself (en https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/en , sk https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/sk) despite Manavpreet assurance that WUG WMSVK will rectify them https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644 - WUG WMSVK is no longer publicly presenting its *Annual plans* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Annual_agendas despite its tradition of presenting them publicly, and is not presenting publicly its *Financial reports* and *Annual Budgets* despite the tradition of publicly presenting such documents and having the capacity to create at least *Annual budget* since at least 2018. All of these 3 documents are required to be prepared every year by WMSVK's Board.
I understand that Manavpreet personally is not an AffCom and not a voting member. At the same time, I understand that Manavpreet is a paid staff member whose job is liaisoning for AffCom and is often in contact with at least some affiliations and proposed affiliations. So Manavpreet's responsibility to AffCom is still present, although I do not know what is its span.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Manavpreet_Kaur#Your_role_in_AffCo... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22236019
Looking for your answers! KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
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Radoslava,
I hoped that the next time for me to contribute here I would only slightly correct some small misunderstandings... But with you it is going to be more than slightly... Nevertheless, you have personally addressed me, so...
Also, please the next time respect the topic of this thread and do not mix it with others (it is about AffCom / Manavpreet, not about Matej / WUG WMSVK).
First of all, I am *not* doing personal attacks. It may seem like that because in order to interact about human happenings it is quite necessary to talk about persons. (violations are not happening by themselves, they are persons who do them - for someone these can be hard to distinct...) But if you would look at my messages with effort to understand, you would (hopefully) get that I am pursuing truth and agreements and want people to honor their agreements (as AffCom is required by the Board of Trustees to follow the WMF Guiding Principles).
My informations (not accusations, as you have presented!) stays on solid ground. This list is not an appropriate place to present them (especially as there is going to be a dedicated investigation of AffCom in about 2 weeks, and AffCom is already working to help WUG WMSVK), but in private I have already provided much, much, much more than reasonable evidence to you, to WMSVK and to AffCom and personally helped you to understand it. Some of this evidence is publicly available, so if someone want to find it, it is possible. The evidence also put a big asterisk on your statement that "Matej is a good and fair chairman", or maybe we have very different understanding of these terms.
Also, you are a Board member of WUG WMSVK and you are highly responsible for some situations that are exhausting you now. If you really want them to stop, you are in a great position to do meaningful actions - I have already provided some recommendations what specifically WUG WMSVK can do to get on track on honoring its User Group Agreement ;-)
Best regards KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
st 27. 10. 2021 o 0:20 Radoslava F. Semanova radoslava22@gmail.com napísal(a):
Michal,
stop those personal attacks. No one lies to you, nor to anyone else. Matej is a good and fair chairman. I am exhausted from watching time and again your unfounded accusations on Matej, me, and whoever you mind. Please, stop it!
Radoslava Semanová Vice-chair of Wikimedians Slovakia User group
ut 26. 10. 2021 o 21:55 Michal Matúšov kubof.hromoslav@gmail.com napísal(a):
Hi.
Just a small factual update:
In the presented list of issues there is: "Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me even after my explicit requests)"
Thanks to Matej Grochal, the Chair of WUG WMSVK, who has shed light on this topic! He confirmed that AffCom did **not** make this untruthful communication to WUG WMSVK (as he had stated before). Rather, Grochal / WMSVK have connected some data points in a wrong way, came to wrong conclusion and presented it as a clear truth about someone else behaviour. Although, it would be definitely helpful if AffCom would clearly stated it when I have asked it. So we could move forward sooner and not waste time, effort and energy asking AffCom for answer and WUG WMSVK for proof.
Regards KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
po 25. 10. 2021 o 12:32 Michal Matúšov kubof.hromoslav@gmail.com napísal(a):
Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these AffCom's issues, I ask you to publicly respond to the questions below. (I have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
(I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier for low-involved folks to get the core part)
*Questions:*
- *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented
below to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Guiding_Principles (especially Transparency and Accountability)?* 1. *If not, has Manavpreet done already something to rectify AffCom's activity to be in full alignment with them? What has Manavpreet done?* 2. *If yes, please briefly clarify how (in your opinion) they are showing Transparency and Accountability.* 2. *What is Manavpreet's role in the AffCom's happenings presented below?* (have Manavpreet supported / encouraged / decided them? or have Manavpreet tried to prevent them / discourage them? or have Manavpreet just fully neutraly executed decisions that leaded to them? have Manavpreet presented objections that the decisions are against Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles or similar rules / recommendations / ...? or something else? please be concrete) 3. As much of the presented cases show AffCom's issues about clear, proactive communication, *do you consider Manavpreet to be capable enough to clearly, proactively, helpfully communicate in the high responsibility role of Movement Charter Drafting Committee member?* 1. *If it is not Manavpreet who is the source of AffCom's communication issues, who is?* 4. *Do you believe that Manavpreet will not "import" AffCom-like issues to the Movement Charter Drafting Committee? If yes, on what basis?*
*Context:*
I am in contact with Manavpreet mostly because of her role of Staff Liaison of Affiliations Committee https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee (AffCom), which relates with my roles of (ex)Chair of some Wikimedia Affiliations. While AffCom have for years reputation of slowresponsedness, it was understanable because of its structure (which, in turn, is understanable because of its high responsibilities) and was rather only a little anoyance, not a big deal. But that have changed (for worse) at least several months ago and AffCom is still very reluctant to provide more information about it. Several specific cases for ilustration:
- AffCom put on hold the recognition of User Group Esperanto and
Free Knowledge https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio as a Thematic Organisation and informed the UG only reactively (after my question), after unreasonably long time (after the expected deadline for recognition) and provided false information as the reason; even after several messages AffCom haven't revealed the requested information about the pausing
- In February 2021, Meta admins deferred to AffCom the determination
of some specific hard Requests for deletion https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_deletion/Archives/2020#Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's_Annual_Report_2018 with intention to implement AffCom's determination; despite Manavpreet (in her official WMF role) have considered it as a priority concern https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644, Affcom have not provided its determination to Meta admins even after 7 months (as stated by 3 Meta admins - 2 of them confirming publicly: Xaosflux https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21998260 and Camouflaged Mirage https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22000846 (by their alternative account))
- AffCom was for several months totally unresponsive about proposed
recommendations to make WUG Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia to obey its User Group Agreement
- For quite long time AffCom have been requiring (that time not yet
a WUG) Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia (WUG WMSVK) to change its legal name to be recognized as a WM User Group, what blocked the recognition for more than year, but suddenly after the recognition , AffCom agreed to accept Wikimedians of Slovakia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia's prefered official name which was for long time totaly unaccepted by AffCom
- Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was
me who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me even after my explicit requests)
- AffCom is for months in silence about various questions and
proposals about WUG WMSVK for whom is AffCom fully responsible since December 2020
- As AffCom in December 2020 took full responsibility for WUG WMSVK,
AffCom is fully reponsible for: - WUG WMSVK falsely publicly presents the meeting on March 2019 as a valid Meeting of General Assembly http://wikimedia.sk//wp-content/uploads/2019/07/WMSK-VZ-20190309-ZAP.pdf despite it clearly violates WUG WMSVK's bylaw and several WUG WMSVK's board members have already stated it, also publicly - It is still not clear whether WUG WMSVK's meeting in March 2021 was a valid Meeting of General Assembly, as evidence suggest it was not, despite AffCom being repeatedly warned in advance about this possibility - WMF is publicly hosting documents produced by WUG WMSVK that contain false, defamatory information about myself (en https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/en , sk https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Reports/2018/sk) despite Manavpreet assurance that WUG WMSVK will rectify them https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/21238644 - WUG WMSVK is no longer publicly presenting its *Annual plans* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedians_of_Slovakia/Annual_agendas despite its tradition of presenting them publicly, and is not presenting publicly its *Financial reports* and *Annual Budgets* despite the tradition of publicly presenting such documents and having the capacity to create at least *Annual budget* since at least 2018. All of these 3 documents are required to be prepared every year by WMSVK's Board.
I understand that Manavpreet personally is not an AffCom and not a voting member. At the same time, I understand that Manavpreet is a paid staff member whose job is liaisoning for AffCom and is often in contact with at least some affiliations and proposed affiliations. So Manavpreet's responsibility to AffCom is still present, although I do not know what is its span.
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Manavpreet_Kaur#Your_role_in_AffCo... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/22236019
Looking for your answers! KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing list. I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.
It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
Risker/Anne
It doesn't? Killing threads used to be a regular event.
Wild that all of this appears to be over a disputed 100 euro payment.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:41 PM Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing list. I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.
It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
Risker/Anne _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Perhaps the list admins should consider moderating the OP? Since this thread couldn't be locked?
Regards
Isaac
On Wed, 27 Oct 2021, 00:58 Nathan, nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
It doesn't? Killing threads used to be a regular event.
Wild that all of this appears to be over a disputed 100 euro payment.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:41 PM Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing list. I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.
It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
Risker/Anne _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Hi,
On 10/26/21 4:41 PM, Risker wrote:
It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
It does :) A list admin can set a header filter of "Subject" matching whatever thread's subject, and choose either to hold for moderation, discard (no notification), or reject (with notification) all emails that match.
HTH, -- Kunal
Good to know, thank you!
A.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 9:01 AM Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
Hi,
On 10/26/21 4:41 PM, Risker wrote:
It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
It does :) A list admin can set a header filter of "Subject" matching whatever thread's subject, and choose either to hold for moderation, discard (no notification), or reject (with notification) all emails that match.
HTH, -- Kunal _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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