This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
I understand that this isn't intentional. Presumably there is a phabricator ticket about this. But how can we fix this - does this need more developer time, is this an external problem that we need someone else to fix, or is this a WONTFIX?
Thanks, Mike
I just put forwards a proposal to fix part of this issue Mike :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#Button_load_issues
The TW button is easy to fix at least I am told, once I get consensus. Amir fixed one of the buttons earlier today.
James
On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
I understand that this isn't intentional. Presumably there is a phabricator ticket about this. But how can we fix this - does this need more developer time, is this an external problem that we need someone else to fix, or is this a WONTFIX?
Thanks, Mike
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
- d.
On Sep 3, 2017 13:02, "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at
the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
One possible solution would be to exempt anyone who edits an article from being shown a banner by means of a cookie with a suitable expiry. Since only a tiny fraction of visitors edit, I would expect the impact on the WMF's bottom line to be negligible.
Hey Ori,
I like the creative thinking :) For the fundraising that could indeed work well (although I have no numbers on what percentage of domations comes from logged in users etc), but there are also campaigns tht are quite relevant for logged in users.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Ori Livneh ori.livneh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 3, 2017 13:02, "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at
the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
One possible solution would be to exempt anyone who edits an article from being shown a banner by means of a cookie with a suitable expiry. Since only a tiny fraction of visitors edit, I would expect the impact on the WMF's bottom line to be negligible. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
yeah, there's lots of relevant banners for editors I don't mind seeing.
On 5 September 2017 at 08:32, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hey Ori,
I like the creative thinking :) For the fundraising that could indeed work well (although I have no numbers on what percentage of domations comes from logged in users etc), but there are also campaigns tht are quite relevant for logged in users.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Ori Livneh ori.livneh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 3, 2017 13:02, "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at
the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
One possible solution would be to exempt anyone who edits an article from being shown a banner by means of a cookie with a suitable expiry. Since only a tiny fraction of visitors edit, I would expect the impact on the WMF's bottom line to be negligible. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
WMF hasn't shown fundraising banners to logged in users for several years.
Regards Seddon
On 5 Sep 2017 08:33, "Lodewijk" lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hey Ori,
I like the creative thinking :) For the fundraising that could indeed work well (although I have no numbers on what percentage of domations comes from logged in users etc), but there are also campaigns tht are quite relevant for logged in users.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Ori Livneh ori.livneh@gmail.com wrote:
On Sep 3, 2017 13:02, "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at
the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
One possible solution would be to exempt anyone who edits an article from being shown a banner by means of a cookie with a suitable expiry. Since only a tiny fraction of visitors edit, I would expect the impact on the WMF's bottom line to be negligible. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
a) This is incorrect b) how many years would "for several years" encompass?
David
On 9/5/17, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
WMF hasn't shown fundraising banners to logged in users for several years.
Regards Seddon
Hi David,
Would you mind elaborating on the first point? I vaguely recall test banners being shown to logged in users, but don't recall seeing one myself while logged in for a while.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:16 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com wrote:
a) This is incorrect b) how many years would "for several years" encompass?
David
On 9/5/17, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
WMF hasn't shown fundraising banners to logged in users for several
years.
Regards Seddon
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Sure Lodewijk,
Banners from December 2016: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inline_donor_bannerbass.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Inline_donor_bannerbass....
Comments from Seddon https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-December/085612.html
Perhaps these banners were muted for logged-in users in USA, but I was in S-E Asia last December and it was a very unpleasant experience for me, especially while on mobile and logged in, to get a begging banner/pop-up about after every 4 pages I loaded.
David
On 9/6/17, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi David,
Would you mind elaborating on the first point? I vaguely recall test banners being shown to logged in users, but don't recall seeing one myself while logged in for a while.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:16 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com wrote:
a) This is incorrect b) how many years would "for several years" encompass?
David
On 9/5/17, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
WMF hasn't shown fundraising banners to logged in users for several
years.
Regards Seddon
Hi David,
I would refer to my answer I gave on the forked thread relating to this topic.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-September/088570.html
Regards Seddon
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 3:46 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com wrote:
Sure Lodewijk,
Banners from December 2016: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inline_donor_bannerbass.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Inline_ donor_bannerbass.png
Comments from Seddon https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016- December/085612.html
Perhaps these banners were muted for logged-in users in USA, but I was in S-E Asia last December and it was a very unpleasant experience for me, especially while on mobile and logged in, to get a begging banner/pop-up about after every 4 pages I loaded.
David
On 9/6/17, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi David,
Would you mind elaborating on the first point? I vaguely recall test banners being shown to logged in users, but don't recall seeing one
myself
while logged in for a while.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:16 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com
wrote:
a) This is incorrect b) how many years would "for several years" encompass?
David
On 9/5/17, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
WMF hasn't shown fundraising banners to logged in users for several
years.
Regards Seddon
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Dear Joseph
Thanks for that link.
*NB*: I hope that the list moderators shall not censor / block / unduly delay this important internal conversation we are having concerning WMF self-financing model.
Since this concerns the WMF fund-raising drives of Nov-Dec 2016, I'm linking to the following messages
1. *[Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Wikimedia Foundation Form 990 for FY 2014-2015 now on-wiki* https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-May/084254.html
*"WMF's sheer wastage of donated money (incl. lunch money from Scottish schoolkids) on unnecessary litigation, I cite that the single most prominent case they defended in the period was apparently a domain name dispute (said to billed at US$ 317,490) in which the opposite party (a Wikipedian of long standing) who had only booked the domain name to prevent it from being snaffled by "cyber squatters" had immediately offered to donate it WMF free of cost before the case began. Had WMF accepted that voluntary and good faith donation offer, they would have also got back 75% of the filing fees (a not insubstantial amount).
Dave"*
2. *Reply by Greg Varnum (WMF) on this mailing list* https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-May/084276.html
*"As for the question about why the Wikimedia Foundationspent $317,490 fighting "cybersquatters" that offeredto donate the domain in dispute: We’re not sure where this question comes from, as we haven’t dealt with a case that fits this description. We do not fight cybersquatters who offer to donate their domains (especially if they are community members),and, to date, we have not spent anything approachingthat much money on this type of case."*
3. *Your donation keeps Wikipedia and free knowledge thriving* https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/11/29/wikimedia-foundation-annual-fundraiser/
"Legal defense to preserve your right to access, share, and remix knowledge, including court battles won over Wikimedia content in Brazil https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/09/14/rosanah-fienngo/, Germany https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/08/09/victory-germany-appeal-dismissed/, France https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/06/20/france-legal-victory/, and India."
including unreplied comments on why the India court battles were not linked unlike the others So to sum up:
1. The WMF form 990 says US law firm "JonesDay" received US$ 1,742,916 for legal services in 2014-15
2. WMF is unprepared to specifically inform the community how much of that was spent on fighting a specific "cyber-squatter" from India (my own sources at the time said US$ 300,000 was paid by WMF to JonesDay for this case, mainly billable hours for JD partner Carrie Kiedrowski).
3. WMF is unprepared to specifically inform the community whether or not this cyber squatter (who claims to be a community member since 2003) had straightaway offered to donate the domain name free of cost to the WMF and close the case, however, WMF rejected the offer and instead ran up huge legal bills which were financed by donations, and probably continues to do so since that case is still ongoing in India's legal system .
4. I distinctly recall that when I was in India in mid-November 2016, attending the Opendaylight Linux forum in Bengaluru and incidentally discussing there the progress of this legal case with the other party who was an attendee, I was bombarded with WMF donation banner-ads, as a logged-in user, which carried through till mid-December 2016 when I was at Sri Lanka and Kathmandu but which curiously stopped when I reached Austraila.
5. So, as a community member and contributor, I would like to know how every dollar raised by WMF is collected, and also spent thereafter.
Warmly
David
On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Joseph Seddon josephseddon@gmail.com wrote:
Hi David,
I would refer to my answer I gave on the forked thread relating to this topic.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017- September/088570.html
Regards Seddon
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 3:46 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com wrote:
Sure Lodewijk,
Banners from December 2016: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inline_donor_bannerbass.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Inline_ donor_bannerbass.png
Comments from Seddon https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016- December/085612.html
Perhaps these banners were muted for logged-in users in USA, but I was in S-E Asia last December and it was a very unpleasant experience for me, especially while on mobile and logged in, to get a begging banner/pop-up about after every 4 pages I loaded.
David
On 9/6/17, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi David,
Would you mind elaborating on the first point? I vaguely recall test banners being shown to logged in users, but don't recall seeing one
myself
while logged in for a while.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:16 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com
wrote:
a) This is incorrect b) how many years would "for several years" encompass?
David
On 9/5/17, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
WMF hasn't shown fundraising banners to logged in users for several
years.
Regards Seddon
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
hi david,
as with your accusations regarding the spending, my question would be whether you have anything to substantiate it. Seddon was clear: it did not happen, unless perhaps a human error in a minimal number of campaigns. If you have that then please bring that up in a *separate* thead.
you're going more and more off topic. I suggest that we return to the question at hand: the two stage loading problem.
lodewijk
On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 8:41 AM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Joseph
Thanks for that link.
*NB*: I hope that the list moderators shall not censor / block / unduly delay this important internal conversation we are having concerning WMF self-financing model.
Since this concerns the WMF fund-raising drives of Nov-Dec 2016, I'm linking to the following messages
- *[Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Wikimedia Foundation Form 990
for FY 2014-2015 now on-wiki* https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-May/084254.html
*"WMF's sheer wastage of donated money (incl. lunch money from Scottish schoolkids) on unnecessary litigation, I cite that the single most prominent case they defended in the period was apparently a domain name dispute (said to billed at US$ 317,490) in which the opposite party (a Wikipedian of long standing) who had only booked the domain name to prevent it from being snaffled by "cyber squatters" had immediately offered to donate it WMF free of cost before the case began. Had WMF accepted that voluntary and good faith donation offer, they would have also got back 75% of the filing fees (a not insubstantial amount).
Dave"*
- *Reply by Greg Varnum (WMF) on this mailing list*
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-May/084276.html
*"As for the question about why the Wikimedia Foundationspent $317,490 fighting "cybersquatters" that offeredto donate the domain in dispute: We’re not sure where this question comes from, as we haven’t dealt with a case that fits this description. We do not fight cybersquatters who offer to donate their domains (especially if they are community members),and, to date, we have not spent anything approachingthat much money on this type of case."*
- *Your donation keeps Wikipedia and free knowledge thriving*
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/11/29/wikimedia-foundation-annual-fundraiser/
"Legal defense to preserve your right to access, share, and remix knowledge, including court battles won over Wikimedia content in Brazil https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/09/14/rosanah-fienngo/, Germany https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/08/09/victory-germany-appeal-dismissed/, France https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/06/20/france-legal-victory/, and India."
including unreplied comments on why the India court battles were not linked unlike the others So to sum up:
- The WMF form 990 says US law firm "JonesDay" received US$ 1,742,916 for
legal services in 2014-15
- WMF is unprepared to specifically inform the community how much of that
was spent on fighting a specific "cyber-squatter" from India (my own sources at the time said US$ 300,000 was paid by WMF to JonesDay for this case, mainly billable hours for JD partner Carrie Kiedrowski).
- WMF is unprepared to specifically inform the community whether or not
this cyber squatter (who claims to be a community member since 2003) had straightaway offered to donate the domain name free of cost to the WMF and close the case, however, WMF rejected the offer and instead ran up huge legal bills which were financed by donations, and probably continues to do so since that case is still ongoing in India's legal system .
- I distinctly recall that when I was in India in mid-November 2016,
attending the Opendaylight Linux forum in Bengaluru and incidentally discussing there the progress of this legal case with the other party who was an attendee, I was bombarded with WMF donation banner-ads, as a logged-in user, which carried through till mid-December 2016 when I was at Sri Lanka and Kathmandu but which curiously stopped when I reached Austraila.
- So, as a community member and contributor, I would like to know how
every dollar raised by WMF is collected, and also spent thereafter.
Warmly
David
On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Joseph Seddon josephseddon@gmail.com wrote:
Hi David,
I would refer to my answer I gave on the forked thread relating to this topic.
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-Septe mber/088570.html
Regards Seddon
On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 3:46 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com wrote:
Sure Lodewijk,
Banners from December 2016: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inline_donor_bannerbass.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Inline_ donor_bannerbass.png
Comments from Seddon https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016- December/085612.html
Perhaps these banners were muted for logged-in users in USA, but I was in S-E Asia last December and it was a very unpleasant experience for me, especially while on mobile and logged in, to get a begging banner/pop-up about after every 4 pages I loaded.
David
On 9/6/17, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:
Hi David,
Would you mind elaborating on the first point? I vaguely recall test banners being shown to logged in users, but don't recall seeing one
myself
while logged in for a while.
Best, Lodewijk
On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 2:16 PM, David Emrany david.emrany@gmail.com
wrote:
a) This is incorrect b) how many years would "for several years" encompass?
David
On 9/5/17, Joseph Seddon jseddon@wikimedia.org wrote:
WMF hasn't shown fundraising banners to logged in users for several
years.
Regards Seddon
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Can we get back on topic please? I isn't there another thread for beating the fundraising-disclosure-oversight dead horse?
These issues can be fixed. Have the banners load below the buttons we typically click on. Move the gadgets to the left of "read" rather than to the right of "view history". I have proposed this for TW as I mentioned here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#Button_load_issues
J
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 11:01 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at
the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
- d.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Just noting in passing that ascribing this to the gadgets that make up a personal profile...isn't always what is the problem. I don't think standard non-logged-in profile has any of these finicky bits, yet the same thing happens to users who are not logged in. All the time - half the time I find out about an overarching banner, it's from someone who knows I "do" Wikipedia, and they're complaining to me. I have to disabuse them of the idea that any editor is likely to be able to change this...
Risker/Anne
On 3 September 2017 at 13:44, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
These issues can be fixed. Have the banners load below the buttons we typically click on. Move the gadgets to the left of "read" rather than to the right of "view history". I have proposed this for TW as I mentioned here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#Button_load_issues
J
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 11:01 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at
the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
- d.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
There are 4 or more different problems being discussed here, and it would be helpful to be precise about each of them, and keep them separate because they are technically distinct, despite being thematically linked. (Note: I'm not a dev, which both helps me simplify the explanation, but also means there might be errors or over-simplifications!)
---------
1. Basic page links, with Banner notices (Central/Site/Geo/Watchlist): Example: Everyone in Venezuela should be seeing this WLM banner currently: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&banner=wlm_2017_v... Problem: These push down the "page content", by the height of the banner. The desired page content is usually still visible, but it is still annoying whether reading or trying to click on page content links. Cause 1: The geo-targetting javascript takes time to complete. The only way we could prevent this, is to delay the visibility of the entire page, for everyone in the world, whilst the code checks whether or not the reader is in the defined geographic region. Cause 2: The other javascript takes time to complete. Same as 1, but for non-geo-targeted notices. (E.g. notices only shown to logged-in editors with more than 1000 edits.) This is faster, but still takes time, and per Krinkle's explanation above it is not done until the page contents are displayed.
---------
2. #subsection-links with page bump issues:
2a) Example - banners (as above): https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_News&banner=wlm_2... Problem: These push *down* the "page content", *in some browsers*
2b) Example - collapsed sections/tables above the link-target: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Relationship_with_humans Problem: These push *up* the "page content", *in some browsers*. Sometimes they push it up a *lot*. This means it is above the visible area, which is both annoying and confusing.
Details: In Chrome/Chromium these links work fine, even if you have fancy gadgets like "Improved appearance for mobile, narrow and wide screens" enabled, because Chrome/Chromium uses "scroll-anchoring". In Firefox, these links get the "page bump" problem. Firefox's upstream bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43114
-----------
3. Gadgets and features that are added to the site's User Interface (userlinks (personal bar), pagelinks (vector's tab bar), sitelinks (sidebar), etc): Example: In the Vector skin, the gadget Twinkle adds its "TW" dropdown-menu tab to the right (in LTR languages) of the "vector-more-actions" dropdown-menu tab, but it doesn't appear until a few seconds after the rest of the page loads. Cause: Per Krinkle's explanation, the JavaScript is done after the page content has finished loading. Solution 1: [layout-change] - We could simply move the "TW" dropdown-menu tab so that it appears in a slightly less-logical place, i.e. to the left (in LTR languages) of the "Read" tab. (per Doc James proposal) Solution 2: [code-change] - I think there might be further JavaScript/ResourceLoader tweaks that could be done here, but I'm not sure.
------------
4. Gadgets and features that change the wikitext editing textarea: Example: In the 2010 wikitext editor, if the "Advanced" or "Special characters" or "Help" sections were expanded in the previous editing session, then they will be expanded in your next editing session. However but they won't "open" until after everything else has loaded. Cause: ? (I haven't stumbled across the details on this one, yet.)
------------
TLDR: These are all old problems. Lumping them all together (as this thread is doing, and as quite a few phabricator tasks do, e.g. T138177) leads to confusing/frustrating discussions. Over the years, the possible solutions change for each of these issues, due to external browser evolution and internal code-infrastructure evolution - but solving it for older browsers makes everything complicated (i.e. Firefox could fix their bug today, but it would only help users who updated their browser), and IIUC supporting older gadgets/extensions also makes everything complicated (i.e. we try not to create "breaking changes"). These issues annoy everyone. If they were easy to fix, they would've been fixed. The developers regularly discuss the issues, and improve what they can.
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 10:44 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
These issues can be fixed. Have the banners load below the buttons we typically click on. Move the gadgets to the left of "read" rather than to the right of "view history". I have proposed this for TW as I mentioned here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#Button_load_issues
J
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 11:01 AM, David Gerard dgerard@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at
the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads. So you have to start reading the page again, or you have to find where you were editing again, or you have to undo the change you just made since you made it in the wrong part of the page.
Or you click "edit" and it hits the banner that suddenly popped up under your click. AAAAAAAAAAAA
- d.
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On 2 September 2017 at 02:09, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
This is possibly the most annoying feature of the Wikimedia projects at the moment. You access a page. Then you start reading or editing it. And then suddenly the page jumps when a fundraising banner / central notice / gadget / beta feature loads.
Yes, very annoying.
The new syntax highlighter, in Beta, (the last time I looked) badly compounds this.
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org