Hi,
I am not seeking legal advice. I am asking the pursuit of the issue. I am not a US citizen so I do not have a congress person to contact. The laws governing copyright can be amended to address the issue of deep space objects (DSO). I do not expect a result next week, I merely want the issue to enter into an agenda of some sort. If the Foundation is going to take the lead, this probably would only be possible through a board decision. In such a case I want to work with people to come up with such a draft proposal to the board.
I realize this is an unusual request but there seems to be a lack of clarity on this issue[1]. Argument is that copyright can be an issue since not every organization observing or assisting NASA's observations are PD-USgov compatible. We may be forced to permanently delete all deep space objects as a result.
I'd like to provide a short technical explanation why copyright of deep space objects or DSOs (objects outside of the solar system) are meaningless. For ordinary photographs copyright is determined by factors such as lighting, perspective, exposure and other such settings that creates a different image of the same object. You can distinguish the difference between a daylight photo and an evening photo.
With deep space objects however, even the stellar parallax[2] has a very small value. The closest object outside of the solar system is 4.24 light years (268,136 AU's) away. The semi-major axis of earth is about 1AUs. The difference in perspective is like looking at a 2cm (width of a nickel) wide object 5.3km (3.29 miles) away and the perspective difference is switching left eye to the right eye. We lack scientific instruments to even detect a stellar parallax for objects much further. In other words our perspective of the nearest star and beyond is more or less constant and the objects themselves look the same for hundreds of years.
So any photo of a deep space object I or someone else takes from the solar system will look identical regardless of when and where on earth I take it within multiple lifetimes. I think this can bring legal precedent for us to either disregard any copyright claim or at least pursue lawmakers in congress to amend the copyright law to make an exception in the law. People who worked with congress such as Neil Degrasse Tyson could be consulted to this end. Also international treaties[3] can be consulted to this end as copyrighting photos of deep space objects could be interpreted as an unfair exploitation of resources.
I realize this reads like something out of Star Trek but this is growing to be quite a problem as we see more and more weird copyright claims even when dealing with NASA which traditionally had a PD-USgov mentality. NASA regularly contracts its more recent projects and to be fair we do not know how NASA contracts these projects which could potentially lead to legitimate copyright claims in the future.
[1]: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Potential_deletion_of...
[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_parallax
[3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_law#International_treaties
-- とある白い猫 (To Aru Shiroi Neko)
On 15 September 2012 07:24, とある白い猫 to.aru.shiroi.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I am not seeking legal advice. I am asking the pursuit of the issue. I am not a US citizen so I do not have a congress person to contact. The laws governing copyright can be amended to address the issue of deep space objects (DSO). I do not expect a result next week, I merely want the issue to enter into an agenda of some sort. If the Foundation is going to take the lead, this probably would only be possible through a board decision. In such a case I want to work with people to come up with such a draft proposal to the board.
I realize this is an unusual request but there seems to be a lack of clarity on this issue[1]. Argument is that copyright can be an issue since not every organization observing or assisting NASA's observations are PD-USgov compatible. We may be forced to permanently delete all deep space objects as a result.
I'd like to provide a short technical explanation why copyright of deep space objects or DSOs (objects outside of the solar system) are meaningless. For ordinary photographs copyright is determined by factors such as lighting, perspective, exposure and other such settings that creates a different image of the same object. You can distinguish the difference between a daylight photo and an evening photo.
With deep space objects however, even the stellar parallax[2] has a very small value. The closest object outside of the solar system is 4.24 light years (268,136 AU's) away. The semi-major axis of earth is about 1AUs. The difference in perspective is like looking at a 2cm (width of a nickel) wide object 5.3km (3.29 miles) away and the perspective difference is switching left eye to the right eye. We lack scientific instruments to even detect a stellar parallax for objects much further. In other words our perspective of the nearest star and beyond is more or less constant and the objects themselves look the same for hundreds of years.
So any photo of a deep space object I or someone else takes from the solar system will look identical regardless of when and where on earth I take it within multiple lifetimes.
Not so. The results from the Atacama Desert are going to be far clearer than the results from say Snowdonia. That is before we consider the issues of different filters, exposure times and instruments.
If you claim was true we could just team up with a couple of amateur observetories (one in each hemisphere) and retake all the deep sky images (which might not be an entirely bad thing anyway).
I am not arguing that we should declare all deep space objects to be in PD. I am proposing that we pursue congress pass a law to grant the needed legal basis as I feel this should be public property. I am open to alternative suggestions mind you.
Point is place and time does not matter as the object would look the same. You cannot take the photo of a DSO (Deep Space Object) from a different angle as long as you remain inside the solar system - even then the perspective for objects beyond our own galaxy would require a trip to another galaxy.
A couple of amateur observatories would not be able to produce images that can rival Hubble which is in orbit. Atmosphere causes problems even with AI based adaptive telescopes. It is like taking a photograph underwater. Anyone using Hubble or another telescope in orbit would snap an identical shot of the object since perspective will always be the same (since the atmosphere effect is not present).
It takes light time to get to earth. For objects beyond our galaxy, Andromeda is the closest and is 2.5 million light years away. In other words by the time we snap a picture, our picture of Andromeda is already 2.5 million years old (not considering relativistic effects).
-- とある白い猫 (To Aru Shiroi Neko)
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:44 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 15 September 2012 07:24, とある白い猫 to.aru.shiroi.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I am not seeking legal advice. I am asking the pursuit of the issue. I
am
not a US citizen so I do not have a congress person to contact. The laws governing copyright can be amended to address the issue of deep space objects (DSO). I do not expect a result next week, I merely want the
issue
to enter into an agenda of some sort. If the Foundation is going to take the lead, this probably would only be possible through a board decision.
In
such a case I want to work with people to come up with such a draft proposal to the board.
I realize this is an unusual request but there seems to be a lack of clarity on this issue[1]. Argument is that copyright can be an issue
since
not every organization observing or assisting NASA's observations are PD-USgov compatible. We may be forced to permanently delete all deep
space
objects as a result.
I'd like to provide a short technical explanation why copyright of deep space objects or DSOs (objects outside of the solar system) are meaningless. For ordinary photographs copyright is determined by factors such as lighting, perspective, exposure and other such settings that creates a different image of the same object. You can distinguish the difference between a daylight photo and an evening photo.
With deep space objects however, even the stellar parallax[2] has a
very
small value. The closest object outside of the solar system is 4.24 light years (268,136 AU's) away. The semi-major axis of earth is about 1AUs.
The
difference in perspective is like looking at a 2cm (width of a nickel)
wide
object 5.3km (3.29 miles) away and the perspective difference is
switching
left eye to the right eye. We lack scientific instruments to even detect
a
stellar parallax for objects much further. In other words our perspective of the nearest star and beyond is more or less constant and the objects themselves look the same for hundreds of years.
So any photo of a deep space object I or someone else takes from the solar system will look identical regardless of when and where on earth I take it within multiple lifetimes.
Not so. The results from the Atacama Desert are going to be far clearer than the results from say Snowdonia. That is before we consider the issues of different filters, exposure times and instruments.
If you claim was true we could just team up with a couple of amateur observetories (one in each hemisphere) and retake all the deep sky images (which might not be an entirely bad thing anyway).
-- geni
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On 17 September 2012 04:07, とある白い猫 to.aru.shiroi.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Point is place and time does not matter as the object would look the same.
A couple of amateur observatories would not be able to produce images that can rival Hubble which is in orbit.
Do you see the problem?
Where is the onwiki discussion about this? I could find '[1]'
Or a wikipedia page that describes the copyright status of imagery of DSOs?
John Vandenberg. sent from Galaxy Note On Sep 15, 2012 1:25 PM, "とある白い猫" to.aru.shiroi.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I am not seeking legal advice. I am asking the pursuit of the issue. I am not a US citizen so I do not have a congress person to contact. The laws governing copyright can be amended to address the issue of deep space objects (DSO). I do not expect a result next week, I merely want the issue to enter into an agenda of some sort. If the Foundation is going to take the lead, this probably would only be possible through a board decision. In such a case I want to work with people to come up with such a draft proposal to the board.
I realize this is an unusual request but there seems to be a lack of clarity on this issue[1]. Argument is that copyright can be an issue since not every organization observing or assisting NASA's observations are PD-USgov compatible. We may be forced to permanently delete all deep space objects as a result.
I'd like to provide a short technical explanation why copyright of deep space objects or DSOs (objects outside of the solar system) are meaningless. For ordinary photographs copyright is determined by factors such as lighting, perspective, exposure and other such settings that creates a different image of the same object. You can distinguish the difference between a daylight photo and an evening photo.
With deep space objects however, even the stellar parallax[2] has a very small value. The closest object outside of the solar system is 4.24 light years (268,136 AU's) away. The semi-major axis of earth is about 1AUs. The difference in perspective is like looking at a 2cm (width of a nickel) wide object 5.3km (3.29 miles) away and the perspective difference is switching left eye to the right eye. We lack scientific instruments to even detect a stellar parallax for objects much further. In other words our perspective of the nearest star and beyond is more or less constant and the objects themselves look the same for hundreds of years.
So any photo of a deep space object I or someone else takes from the solar system will look identical regardless of when and where on earth I take it within multiple lifetimes. I think this can bring legal precedent for us to either disregard any copyright claim or at least pursue lawmakers in congress to amend the copyright law to make an exception in the law. People who worked with congress such as Neil Degrasse Tyson could be consulted to this end. Also international treaties[3] can be consulted to this end as copyrighting photos of deep space objects could be interpreted as an unfair exploitation of resources.
I realize this reads like something out of Star Trek but this is growing to be quite a problem as we see more and more weird copyright claims even when dealing with NASA which traditionally had a PD-USgov mentality. NASA regularly contracts its more recent projects and to be fair we do not know how NASA contracts these projects which could potentially lead to legitimate copyright claims in the future.
[1]:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Potential_deletion_of...
-- とある白い猫 (To Aru Shiroi Neko) _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Have you searched for it?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2012/09#Poten...
2012/9/17 John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com:
Where is the onwiki discussion about this? I could find '[1]'
Or a wikipedia page that describes the copyright status of imagery of DSOs?
John Vandenberg. sent from Galaxy Note On Sep 15, 2012 1:25 PM, "とある白い猫" to.aru.shiroi.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I am not seeking legal advice. I am asking the pursuit of the issue. I am not a US citizen so I do not have a congress person to contact. The laws governing copyright can be amended to address the issue of deep space objects (DSO). I do not expect a result next week, I merely want the issue to enter into an agenda of some sort. If the Foundation is going to take the lead, this probably would only be possible through a board decision. In such a case I want to work with people to come up with such a draft proposal to the board.
I realize this is an unusual request but there seems to be a lack of clarity on this issue[1]. Argument is that copyright can be an issue since not every organization observing or assisting NASA's observations are PD-USgov compatible. We may be forced to permanently delete all deep space objects as a result.
I'd like to provide a short technical explanation why copyright of deep space objects or DSOs (objects outside of the solar system) are meaningless. For ordinary photographs copyright is determined by factors such as lighting, perspective, exposure and other such settings that creates a different image of the same object. You can distinguish the difference between a daylight photo and an evening photo.
With deep space objects however, even the stellar parallax[2] has a very small value. The closest object outside of the solar system is 4.24 light years (268,136 AU's) away. The semi-major axis of earth is about 1AUs. The difference in perspective is like looking at a 2cm (width of a nickel) wide object 5.3km (3.29 miles) away and the perspective difference is switching left eye to the right eye. We lack scientific instruments to even detect a stellar parallax for objects much further. In other words our perspective of the nearest star and beyond is more or less constant and the objects themselves look the same for hundreds of years.
So any photo of a deep space object I or someone else takes from the solar system will look identical regardless of when and where on earth I take it within multiple lifetimes. I think this can bring legal precedent for us to either disregard any copyright claim or at least pursue lawmakers in congress to amend the copyright law to make an exception in the law. People who worked with congress such as Neil Degrasse Tyson could be consulted to this end. Also international treaties[3] can be consulted to this end as copyrighting photos of deep space objects could be interpreted as an unfair exploitation of resources.
I realize this reads like something out of Star Trek but this is growing to be quite a problem as we see more and more weird copyright claims even when dealing with NASA which traditionally had a PD-USgov mentality. NASA regularly contracts its more recent projects and to be fair we do not know how NASA contracts these projects which could potentially lead to legitimate copyright claims in the future.
[1]:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Potential_deletion_of...
-- とある白い猫 (To Aru Shiroi Neko) _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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Thanks. I didnt search. I looked in the last 250 revisions of the page. I didnt look back far enough.
John Vandenberg. sent from Galaxy Note On Sep 17, 2012 8:42 PM, "Strainu" strainu10@gmail.com wrote:
Have you searched for it?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2012/09#Poten...
2012/9/17 John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com:
Where is the onwiki discussion about this? I could find '[1]'
Or a wikipedia page that describes the copyright status of imagery of
DSOs?
John Vandenberg. sent from Galaxy Note On Sep 15, 2012 1:25 PM, "とある白い猫" to.aru.shiroi.neko@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I am not seeking legal advice. I am asking the pursuit of the issue.
I am
not a US citizen so I do not have a congress person to contact. The laws governing copyright can be amended to address the issue of deep space objects (DSO). I do not expect a result next week, I merely want the
issue
to enter into an agenda of some sort. If the Foundation is going to take the lead, this probably would only be possible through a board
decision. In
such a case I want to work with people to come up with such a draft proposal to the board.
I realize this is an unusual request but there seems to be a lack of clarity on this issue[1]. Argument is that copyright can be an issue
since
not every organization observing or assisting NASA's observations are PD-USgov compatible. We may be forced to permanently delete all deep
space
objects as a result.
I'd like to provide a short technical explanation why copyright of
deep
space objects or DSOs (objects outside of the solar system) are meaningless. For ordinary photographs copyright is determined by factors such as lighting, perspective, exposure and other such settings that creates a different image of the same object. You can distinguish the difference between a daylight photo and an evening photo.
With deep space objects however, even the stellar parallax[2] has a
very
small value. The closest object outside of the solar system is 4.24
light
years (268,136 AU's) away. The semi-major axis of earth is about 1AUs.
The
difference in perspective is like looking at a 2cm (width of a nickel)
wide
object 5.3km (3.29 miles) away and the perspective difference is
switching
left eye to the right eye. We lack scientific instruments to even
detect a
stellar parallax for objects much further. In other words our
perspective
of the nearest star and beyond is more or less constant and the objects themselves look the same for hundreds of years.
So any photo of a deep space object I or someone else takes from the solar system will look identical regardless of when and where on earth I take it within multiple lifetimes. I think this can bring legal
precedent
for us to either disregard any copyright claim or at least pursue
lawmakers
in congress to amend the copyright law to make an exception in the law. People who worked with congress such as Neil Degrasse Tyson could be consulted to this end. Also international treaties[3] can be consulted
to
this end as copyrighting photos of deep space objects could be
interpreted
as an unfair exploitation of resources.
I realize this reads like something out of Star Trek but this is
growing
to be quite a problem as we see more and more weird copyright claims
even
when dealing with NASA which traditionally had a PD-USgov mentality.
NASA
regularly contracts its more recent projects and to be fair we do not
know
how NASA contracts these projects which could potentially lead to legitimate copyright claims in the future.
[1]:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Potential_deletion_of...
-- とある白い猫 (To Aru Shiroi Neko) _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org