Dear wikimedians, Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find that the largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to start with the 5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000 soʻm note, that was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in the street markets. So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes into soʻm we got around 800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite interesting to note that people in the street went with black plastic bags full of money in order to buy at the market or get a taxi ride. Some days later, I talked to a local taxi driver and he told me that when he bought his car, he needed a small truck to carry all the paper notes to the car selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. Then another man said that many houses have a room only for storing money, so you can buy a larger house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical joke, but that's how it was.
Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show my disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that the purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue offering volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay for a better API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.
We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes as planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house to have a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The room will soon look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to paint the house, arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the toilet, mow the lawn or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food there. Soon, the cow will start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But yes, the money room will be huge. We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete.
Sincerely,
Galder
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders
Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
* Simultaneous edition * Auto-save in sandbox * Publishing from sandbox * Upload MP4 files * Render correctly vectorial files * Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects * Have a modern look * Have cross-project templates and modules * Visual edit from mobile * Create visually interesting cartography * Hear the articles * Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever) * ... * ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very obsolete.
Galder
________________________________ From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms (which is made easier with no technical smarties)
Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it as a phenomenon obsolete
In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
Anders
Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
- Simultaneous edition
- Auto-save in sandbox
- Publishing from sandbox
- Upload MP4 files
- Render correctly vectorial files
- Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects
- Have a modern look
- Have cross-project templates and modules
- Visual edit from mobile
- Create visually interesting cartography
- Hear the articles
- Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever)
- ...
- ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very obsolete.
Galder
*From:* Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se *Sent:* Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM *To:* wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise "We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/A4BK4DGPH366HYGAV3DCKOH6MWWVWIX2/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Anders: we can't add a physics simulator. (https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, because we are... obsolete.
________________________________ From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms (which is made easier with no technical smarties)
Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it as a phenomenon obsolete
In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
Anders
Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga: Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
* Simultaneous edition * Auto-save in sandbox * Publishing from sandbox * Upload MP4 files * Render correctly vectorial files * Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects * Have a modern look * Have cross-project templates and modules * Visual edit from mobile * Create visually interesting cartography * Hear the articles * Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever) * ... * ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very obsolete.
Galder
________________________________ From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.semailto:mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> a scris:
Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical administrator, but it's possible.
Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
Strainu
(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, because we are... obsolete.
From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of
controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our
editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms
(which is made easier with no technical smarties)
Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it
as a phenomenon obsolete
In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few
or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
Anders
Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would
imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
Simultaneous edition Auto-save in sandbox Publishing from sandbox Upload MP4 files Render correctly vectorial files Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects Have a modern look Have cross-project templates and modules Visual edit from mobile Create visually interesting cartography Hear the articles Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever) ... ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey"
every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very
obsolete.
Galder
From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/...
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/...
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
"Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. "
I don't assume it, just we can't do it: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259
If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given wiki, we could go forward fast. ________________________________ From: Strainu strainu10@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> a scris:
Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical administrator, but it's possible.
Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
Strainu
(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, because we are... obsolete.
From: Anders Wennersten <mail@anderswennersten.semailto:mail@anderswennersten.se> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms (which is made easier with no technical smarties)
Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it as a phenomenon obsolete
In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
Anders
Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
Simultaneous edition Auto-save in sandbox Publishing from sandbox Upload MP4 files Render correctly vectorial files Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects Have a modern look Have cross-project templates and modules Visual edit from mobile Create visually interesting cartography Hear the articles Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever) ... ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very obsolete. Galder
From: Anders Wennersten <mail@anderswennersten.semailto:mail@anderswennersten.se> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
You put in a URL that links to one. And there, you're done.
Having a "howto" gadget like that is not the purpose of an article. The purpose of an article is to describe, not have a "simulator". A URL to one on some other site in the external links section might be quite in order, but that is out of scope for Wikipedia itself.
We should never try to be everything to everyone. We have a clear and defined scope, and we should stick to it.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:57 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. "
I don't assume it, just we can't do it: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259
If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given wiki, we could go forward fast.
*From:* Strainu strainu10@gmail.com *Sent:* Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> a scris:
Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical administrator, but it's possible.
Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
Strainu
(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, because we are... obsolete.
From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues
of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our
editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms
(which is made easier with no technical smarties)
Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it
as a phenomenon obsolete
In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with
few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
Anders
Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would
imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
Simultaneous edition Auto-save in sandbox Publishing from sandbox Upload MP4 files Render correctly vectorial files Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects Have a modern look Have cross-project templates and modules Visual edit from mobile Create visually interesting cartography Hear the articles Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever) ... ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey"
every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very
obsolete.
Galder
From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
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Mmm... let's read again our Strategic direction...
By 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge, and anyone who shares our vision will be able to join us.
We, the Wikimedia contributors, communities, and organizations, will advance our world by collecting knowledge that fully represents human diversity, and by building the services and structures that enable others to do the same.
We will carry on our mission of developing content as we have done in the past, and we will go further.
Yes, having a physics simulation, a calculator, showing how the satellites of Jupiter are arranged now... are, by definition, part or the "ecosystem of free knowledge" in the same way images are. We currently add images to Commons and we don't say: you have a link here if you want to see that image. We also add texts and we don't say "just read a book, lol". Having rich media is part of the ecosystem of free knowledge, and we should be "building the services and structures" to share it. We also should be developing content "further". Is not that I think we should do that: is that we have decided to do that.
Also, the Medium Term Plan, that is currently active, says about "Platform evolution" this https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Medium-term_plan_2019/P...
"support for the integration and discoverability of rich content including video, audio, and interactive media, as well as the infrastructure to serve it with high performance, high redundancy, and low latency to all parts of the world."
So yes, it should be part of the plan, and currently there's no way to achieve it.
Best,
Galder ________________________________ From: Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 10:14 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
You put in a URL that links to one. And there, you're done.
Having a "howto" gadget like that is not the purpose of an article. The purpose of an article is to describe, not have a "simulator". A URL to one on some other site in the external links section might be quite in order, but that is out of scope for Wikipedia itself.
We should never try to be everything to everyone. We have a clear and defined scope, and we should stick to it.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:57 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> wrote: "Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. "
I don't assume it, just we can't do it: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259
If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given wiki, we could go forward fast. ________________________________ From: Strainu <strainu10@gmail.commailto:strainu10@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.commailto:galder158@hotmail.com> a scris:
Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical administrator, but it's possible.
Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
Strainu
(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, because we are... obsolete.
From: Anders Wennersten <mail@anderswennersten.semailto:mail@anderswennersten.se> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms (which is made easier with no technical smarties)
Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it as a phenomenon obsolete
In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
Anders
Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
Simultaneous edition Auto-save in sandbox Publishing from sandbox Upload MP4 files Render correctly vectorial files Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects Have a modern look Have cross-project templates and modules Visual edit from mobile Create visually interesting cartography Hear the articles Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever) ... ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey" every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very obsolete. Galder
From: Anders Wennersten <mail@anderswennersten.semailto:mail@anderswennersten.se> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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That "strategy" crap is from WMF, not the communities, and matters not one bit.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 2:33 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mmm... let's read again our Strategic direction...
*By 2030, Wikimedia will become the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge, and anyone who shares our vision will be able to join us.*
We, the Wikimedia contributors, communities, and organizations, will advance our world by collecting knowledge that fully represents human diversity, and by building the services and structures that enable others to do the same.
We will carry on our mission of developing content as we have done in the past, and we will go further.
Yes, having a physics simulation, a calculator, showing how the satellites of Jupiter are arranged now... are, by definition, part or the "ecosystem of free knowledge" in the same way images are. We currently add images to Commons and we don't say: you have a link here if you want to see that image. We also add texts and we don't say "just read a book, lol". Having rich media is part of the ecosystem of free knowledge, and we should be "building the services and structures" to share it. We also should be developing content "further". Is not that I think we should do that: is that we have decided to do that.
Also, the Medium Term Plan, that is currently active, says about "Platform evolution" this https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Medium-term_plan_2019/P... 🙂
"support for the integration and discoverability of rich content including video, audio, and interactive media, as well as the infrastructure to serve it with high performance, high redundancy, and low latency to all parts of the world."
So yes, it should be part of the plan, and currently there's no way to achieve it.
Best,
Galder
*From:* Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com *Sent:* Tuesday, October 26, 2021 10:14 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
You put in a URL that links to one. And there, you're done.
Having a "howto" gadget like that is not the purpose of an article. The purpose of an article is to describe, not have a "simulator". A URL to one on some other site in the external links section might be quite in order, but that is out of scope for Wikipedia itself.
We should never try to be everything to everyone. We have a clear and defined scope, and we should stick to it.
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:57 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. "
I don't assume it, just we can't do it: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T169027 or https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238259
If you know a way to do this kind of interactive content in any given wiki, we could go forward fast.
*From:* Strainu strainu10@gmail.com *Sent:* Tuesday, October 26, 2021 7:45 PM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
Pe marți, 26 octombrie 2021, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> a scris:
Anders: we can't add a physics simulator.
We totally can. It takes programming knowledge and a technical administrator, but it's possible.
Don't assume that just because you can't do something it's impossible or even particularly hard. What's nearly impossible is to scale such initiatives in a meaningful manner (I.e. over 250+ languages).
Strainu
(https://www.physicsclassroom.com/Physics-Interactives/Newtons-Laws). This is not "info wars", this is being useful. And we can't do it because... well, because we are... obsolete.
From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:02 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
We have an army of volunteers to guarantee correctness and that issues
of controversies are dealt with in a way that hopefully all parties can accept
we have no cookies or technical things that make us follow up on our
editors, truly believing in the full integrity of our users
our financial and governing set up is fully independent of an third party
Our reading interface works well for our users and on most platforms
(which is made easier with no technical smarties)
Our interface can be made better for editors, but this does not make it
as a phenomenon obsolete
In the info war we are in, it is beer to be on the "boring" side with
few or none smart gadgets then being too smart and open for foul play by parties that want to undermine our system by clever hackers
Anders
Den 2021-10-26 kl. 17:37, skrev Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga:
Thanks Anders, "We are the opposite to obsolete" is a good sentence, because this would
imply that our platform is the bow of an icebreaker. But we still, in 2021, can't do this things (you can help by expanding this list):
Simultaneous edition Auto-save in sandbox Publishing from sandbox Upload MP4 files Render correctly vectorial files Embed our own Wikidata query results in our own projects Have a modern look Have cross-project templates and modules Visual edit from mobile Create visually interesting cartography Hear the articles Export multiple articles as a pdf/doc (whatever) ... ........
Someone will answer to this message talking about the "Wishlist survey"
every year we have. This scarcity generating system also gives funny outcomes. Let's take the 2019 survey. 10 projects were voted. Only 4 done: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2019/Results. Or the 2017 one: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2017/Results. Some projects where done, some not and there are some that are external tools that you have to use as a gadget.
Students are relying on YouTube to learn things. We are obsolete. Very
obsolete.
Galder
From: Anders Wennersten mail@anderswennersten.se Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:23 PM To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia
Enterprise
"We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete." Galder
What phenomenon do you see challenge Wikipedias role as a source for common knowledge, an encyklopedia for everyone?
I see that for the last 20 years no successful commercial encyclopedia has been launched.
I see how the social media have a hard time to be a platform for common knowledge and hard pressed to employ armies of moderators. And Google very happy to lean and steal from Wikipedia rather the do something similar themself (which would go down badly in the public)
But the war of information is a reality and heating up. We can be very glad that so far we have not been a target of all angriness of what is to be seen as the "correct" information. But that could change, what if a new administration in US want to control what is written in Wikipedia. Or China want to set up a parallel in English as the have now in Chinese. If these thing happen we need to have resources to fight off these type a of challenges, not only for our own sake but for he people in the world who is used to turn to Wikipedia for basic facts.
We are the opposite to obsolete, we are in the front seat and driving for correct facts in the emerging information war we now see
Anders _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Public archives at
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On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:56 PM Todd Allen toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
That "strategy" crap is from WMF, not the communities, and matters not one bit.
You will not refer to hundreds of other people's hard work as "crap" on this list, Todd. You have been placed on moderation. You are welcome to continue contributing to the list, including -- I stress this -- expressing criticism of the Strategy and of the Wikimedia Foundation -- but only if you manage to do it in a civil and respectful tone.
On behalf of the list admins,
Asaf (volunteer capacity)
On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 16:38, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com wrote:
Upload MP4 files
Try Handbrake.
Have a modern look
That would be the mobile site.
Create visually interesting cartography
I think open street map got there first.
Hear the articles
Not sure that duplicating the work of a range of screen readers is the best use of our resources.
On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 14:39, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Have a modern look
That would be the mobile site.
Well, yes. Now look at Wikisource in your mobile or to Wikipedia in your desktip
Hopefully this will end soon for Wikisource to some extent. There is an ongoing initiative by a few Indian Wikimedians to develop a Wikisource mobile app for Android users. Here is the announcement https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/CCCKM2UQHPXXTC4EBAK4E2GX7WMH5HE5/ few days back.
Coming from the Wikisource project, which is built almost entirely by volunteers and which still doesn't have a dedicated staff structure in WMF for its development and progress, I agree with what Galder said. There are few developments by Community Tech in recent years in some aspects of the project, but it is also true that many of our bugs or feature requests are there on Phabricator for five or six or more years for now. We still use complex templates to proofread which drives new users away; Visual editor still isn't equipped enough to support proofreading easily. For book readers, the Wikisource interface is totally outdated and unattractive compared to contemporary technologies. We still couldn't build an ecosystem with other platforms to train and improve our OCR or to recognize hand-written texts and old prints for many languages. Some languages still don't have OCR support even now and depend on manual proofreading by typing page by page, imagine how that can be for a book with hundreds or thousands of pages. We still can't transcribe non-Western musical notation. The list can go on. Like other sister projects which were historically neglected, our community also tried to build from scratch and adapt and evolve as best as they could but it would be totally unfair to expect them to find free time to solve all problems themselves. Systemic and sustained support is badly needed to advance our technology and that is true.
Regards, Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 09:57, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 16:38, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga galder158@hotmail.com wrote:
Create visually interesting cartography
I think open street map got there first.
No; OSM supply data, in order that reusers such as WMF projects can create their own "visually interesting" map tiles. See, for example:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T289101
Hear the articles
Not sure that duplicating the work of a range of screen readers is the best use of our resources.
I agree; such functionality belongs in the user client (screen reader, browser, whatever), not in the subject website.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 12:19 PM Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote:
Hear the articles
Not sure that duplicating the work of a range of screen readers is the best use of our resources.
I agree; such functionality belongs in the user client (screen reader, browser, whatever), not in the subject website.
Then again, even some newspapers, like Haaretz and the New York Times, nowadays give you a "Listen to this article" option on their sites, and it is, frankly, nice to have sometimes.
Haaretz uses Trinity Audio. This is an excerpt from the marketing text on Trinity Audio's website:
*A publisher that isn’t excited or scared, is asleep at the wheel.*
*We’re living in exciting times of an exponential audio technology revolution. Remember how not long ago people didn’t have mobile phones? Or internet? In the blink of an eye it’s become impossible to imagine life before the eruption of such technologies. The rate of change is growing so fast that in a matter of months it’ll be inconceivable for publishers to offer an experience of reading alone. Just as offering print only solutions is a thing of the past.*
Obviously, this is a self-serving marketing effort, but there's no question that perceptions of what is the "normal" way of delivering or consuming text is rapidly changing. YouTube now offers automatic subtitling/transcript generation, for example. Machine translation is becoming better and better and ever more commonplace. And we all know that many times when a user comes across Wikipedia content, it is delivered by a voice assistant in audio format.
The New York Times, meanwhile, has "a new app for audio journalism and storytelling" in beta ...
https://www.nytimes.com/marketing/audio/beta?channel=oaudio
Andreas
On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 13:59, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure that duplicating the work of a range of screen readers is the best use of our resources.
I agree; such functionality belongs in the user client (screen reader, browser, whatever), not in the subject website.
an excerpt from the marketing text
As a professional web manager (1994-2011), I had companies trying to sell me such services regularly. And why wouldn't they, given the number of websites they could sell it to, over, and over, and over, again?
Equally consistently, people who /needed/ such assistance told us they wanted it in the client, not the website; and that all they required of the websites was to be web-standards-complaint (by which they meant WCAG[1]).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines
Still, consider that if the spoken feature is exposed to all users, it would raise awareness to more people when articles are not well formated for screen readers… And screen readers are not available in all languages, so the effort put into the speech synthesizer in new languages could benefit a wider userbase.
Best regards, Bence
Le mer. 27 oct. 2021 à 16:18, Andy Mabbett andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk a écrit :
On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 13:59, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure that duplicating the work of a range of screen readers is the best use of our resources.
I agree; such functionality belongs in the user client (screen reader, browser, whatever), not in the subject website.
an excerpt from the marketing text
As a professional web manager (1994-2011), I had companies trying to sell me such services regularly. And why wouldn't they, given the number of websites they could sell it to, over, and over, and over, again?
Equally consistently, people who /needed/ such assistance told us they wanted it in the client, not the website; and that all they required of the websites was to be web-standards-complaint (by which they meant WCAG[1]).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines
-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
All these discussions are interesting, but worthless. Because... we are obsolete, our money room will be larger soon, but there's no plan to go beyond 3-4 wishlist ideas every year.
And that's the drama. ________________________________ From: Bence Damokos bdamokos@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2021 6:53 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: An Uzbek praktical joke and Wikimedia Enterprise
Still, consider that if the spoken feature is exposed to all users, it would raise awareness to more people when articles are not well formated for screen readers… And screen readers are not available in all languages, so the effort put into the speech synthesizer in new languages could benefit a wider userbase.
Best regards, Bence
Le mer. 27 oct. 2021 à 16:18, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.ukmailto:andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> a écrit : On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 at 13:59, Andreas Kolbe <jayen466@gmail.commailto:jayen466@gmail.com> wrote:
Not sure that duplicating the work of a range of screen readers is the best use of our resources.
I agree; such functionality belongs in the user client (screen reader, browser, whatever), not in the subject website.
an excerpt from the marketing text
As a professional web manager (1994-2011), I had companies trying to sell me such services regularly. And why wouldn't they, given the number of websites they could sell it to, over, and over, and over, again?
Equally consistently, people who /needed/ such assistance told us they wanted it in the client, not the website; and that all they required of the websites was to be web-standards-complaint (by which they meant WCAG[1]).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines
-- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org -- -- Bence Damokos Sent from Gmail Mobile
The Wikimedia Enterprise site surely is up: https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/pricing/
Did I miss an announcement here on this mailing list?
At least there was a WMF blog post: https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launche...
Anders: The best thing that could happen to Wikipedia would be to have a competitor. Think about it for a moment, for God's sake.
Andreas
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:55 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear wikimedians, Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find that the largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to start with the 5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000 soʻm note, that was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in the street markets. So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes into soʻm we got around 800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite interesting to note that people in the street went with black plastic bags full of money in order to buy at the market or get a taxi ride. Some days later, I talked to a local taxi driver and he told me that when he bought his car, he needed a small truck to carry all the paper notes to the car selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. Then another man said that many houses have a room only for storing money, so you can buy a larger house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical joke, but that's how it was.
Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show my disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that the purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue offering volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay for a better API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.
We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes as planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house to have a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The room will soon look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to paint the house, arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the toilet, mow the lawn or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food there. Soon, the cow will start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But yes, the money room will be huge. We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete.
Sincerely,
Galder _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
Yes the website https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/, and press release https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launches-wikimedia-enterprise-the-new-opt-in-product-for-companies-and-organizations-to-easily-reuse-content-from-wikipedia-and-wikimedia-projects/, were "launched" yesterday. Yes, notification was given on this mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/SLJURHLDJMHY5XM7KOJAP7XKPAEU4K5U/ two weeks ago, as well as several others - including wikitech-l, affiliates-l. That message included various new pieces of documentation (including Board statement relating to revenue principles, methods of free-access to the service for community, forthcoming public 'office hours' meetings). Moreover, it also included notification of this impending launch.
- Liam
On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 17:35, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
The Wikimedia Enterprise site surely is up: https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/pricing/
Did I miss an announcement here on this mailing list?
At least there was a WMF blog post: https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launche...
Anders: The best thing that could happen to Wikipedia would be to have a competitor. Think about it for a moment, for God's sake.
Andreas
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:55 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear wikimedians, Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find that the largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to start with the 5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000 soʻm note, that was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in the street markets. So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes into soʻm we got around 800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite interesting to note that people in the street went with black plastic bags full of money in order to buy at the market or get a taxi ride. Some days later, I talked to a local taxi driver and he told me that when he bought his car, he needed a small truck to carry all the paper notes to the car selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. Then another man said that many houses have a room only for storing money, so you can buy a larger house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical joke, but that's how it was.
Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show my disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that the purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue offering volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay for a better API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.
We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes as planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house to have a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The room will soon look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to paint the house, arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the toilet, mow the lawn or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food there. Soon, the cow will start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But yes, the money room will be huge. We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete.
Sincerely,
Galder _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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I find interesting what Anders and Galder said. I believe that Galder's complaint (which I agree with) is not incompatible with Anders observation.
We can be both obsolete (technology) but yet relevant to society.
F.
Missatge de Liam Wyatt lwyatt@wikimedia.org del dia dt., 26 d’oct. 2021 a les 17:44:
Yes the website https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/, and press release https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launches-wikimedia-enterprise-the-new-opt-in-product-for-companies-and-organizations-to-easily-reuse-content-from-wikipedia-and-wikimedia-projects/, were "launched" yesterday. Yes, notification was given on this mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/SLJURHLDJMHY5XM7KOJAP7XKPAEU4K5U/ two weeks ago, as well as several others - including wikitech-l, affiliates-l. That message included various new pieces of documentation (including Board statement relating to revenue principles, methods of free-access to the service for community, forthcoming public 'office hours' meetings). Moreover, it also included notification of this impending launch.
- Liam
On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 at 17:35, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
The Wikimedia Enterprise site surely is up: https://enterprise.wikimedia.com/pricing/
Did I miss an announcement here on this mailing list?
At least there was a WMF blog post: https://wikimediafoundation.org/news/2021/10/25/wikimedia-foundation-launche...
Anders: The best thing that could happen to Wikipedia would be to have a competitor. Think about it for a moment, for God's sake.
Andreas
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:55 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear wikimedians, Some years ago, I visited Uzbekistan. I was shocked and amused to find that the largest paper note was 2.000 soʻm at that time, with a plan to start with the 5.000 paper note soon. The most used one still was the 1.000 soʻm note, that was about 35 US cents in the bank and about 20 US cents in the street markets. So, the first time we changed two 100 USD$ paper notes into soʻm we got around 800 paper notes in bunches of 100. It was quite interesting to note that people in the street went with black plastic bags full of money in order to buy at the market or get a taxi ride. Some days later, I talked to a local taxi driver and he told me that when he bought his car, he needed a small truck to carry all the paper notes to the car selling store. Of course, I took that as a joke. Then another man said that many houses have a room only for storing money, so you can buy a larger house in the future. I don't know if this was a practical joke, but that's how it was.
Yesterday we launched Wikimedia Enterprise. This e-mail is not to show my disagreement with the idea itself, but with the outcome. It seems that the purpose of Wikimedia Entrerprise is to have a large money revenue offering volunteer's time and content to the rich who are willing to pay for a better API. Believe it or not, I like to tax the rich.
We have millions of dollars in our money room, and, if everything goes as planned with Wikimedia Enterprise, we will soon need to buy a new house to have a larger room to store all those cheques, notes and assets. The room will soon look huge and plenty of money. Still, there's no plan to paint the house, arrange the sofa, solve the water leakage we have in the toilet, mow the lawn or buy a new set of pans so we can cook healthy food there. Soon, the cow will start aging and won't have more milk to sell. But yes, the money room will be huge. We will have more and more and more millions, but we will still... yes... obsolete.
Sincerely,
Galder _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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