Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German .... While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German .... While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German .... While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
Well, in the 21st century a good deal more Indonesians speak English than Dutch, and if translation to English is relatively easy, this will probably facilitate translation to Indonesian also.
Thanks, Pharos
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German .... While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German .... While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it.
-Chad
Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English.
When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia
should
be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into
English
does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about
making
their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about
100.000
images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it
will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it
the
equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more
museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German ....
While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not
provide
language support. Language support will help people find pictures in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other
languages.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English.
When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia
should
be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into
English
does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about
making
their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about
100.000
images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it
will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it
the
equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more
museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German ....
While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not
provide
language support. Language support will help people find pictures in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other
languages.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
And when something is uploaded in Dutch, how do you expect this to help Spanish speakers? Or Japanese speakers? When you translate to English, you facilitate translation into other languages too. I'm not saying translate to English and let it be, I'm saying translate it to English to aid in retranslation.
-Chad
Hoi, The current practice is to upload large collections with a category that is specific to the material it came from. New categories are matched to existing categories and they are merged. So uploading them as they are IS nothing new. The problem is that when material is included that is not English, it means that it originates from outside of the Anglo Saxon world and thereby helps address the existing bias towards the anglo saxon world.
While material in Dutch does not help the English, the Spanish, the Japanese, it only means that people that only speak Spanish or Japanse will find that to them Commons does not provide any service, add any value. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English
??
Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload
facility
of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the
people
who do not speak English.
When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there
for..
Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to
be
gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia
should
be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up
of
material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into
English
does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about
making
their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an
important
collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a
rich
collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about
100.000
images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it
will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand
it
the
equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums
in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more
museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German ....
While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not
provide
language support. Language support will help people find pictures
in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other
languages.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids
translation
into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find
people
who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them
to
translate it.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
And when something is uploaded in Dutch, how do you expect this to help Spanish speakers? Or Japanese speakers? When you translate to English, you facilitate translation into other languages too. I'm not saying translate to English and let it be, I'm saying translate it to English to aid in retranslation.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
This is pictures right? I fail to see how pictures aren't useable to everyone, as they are universal.
________________________________ From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:23:36 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
Hoi, The current practice is to upload large collections with a category that is specific to the material it came from. New categories are matched to existing categories and they are merged. So uploading them as they are IS nothing new. The problem is that when material is included that is not English, it means that it originates from outside of the Anglo Saxon world and thereby helps address the existing bias towards the anglo saxon world.
While material in Dutch does not help the English, the Spanish, the Japanese, it only means that people that only speak Spanish or Japanse will find that to them Commons does not provide any service, add any value. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English
??
Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload
facility
of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the
people
who do not speak English.
When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there
for..
Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to
be
gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia
should
be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up
of
material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into
English
does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about
making
their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an
important
collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a
rich
collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about
100.000
images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it
will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand
it
the
equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums
in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more
museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German ....
While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not
provide
language support. Language support will help people find pictures
in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other
languages.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids
translation
into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find
people
who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them
to
translate it.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
And when something is uploaded in Dutch, how do you expect this to help Spanish speakers? Or Japanese speakers? When you translate to English, you facilitate translation into other languages too. I'm not saying translate to English and let it be, I'm saying translate it to English to aid in retranslation.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, OK, there are *many* pictures of a marc'h on Commons... Now pretend that you cannot find what this is in English. Try to find it on Commons. Alternatively, you might want to look for a picture of a ლომი. There are only 4,742,435 files at Commons, so just looking at the next random file will help you at some stage. Thanks, Gerard
2009/7/15 Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com
This is pictures right? I fail to see how pictures aren't useable to everyone, as they are universal.
From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:23:36 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
Hoi, The current practice is to upload large collections with a category that is specific to the material it came from. New categories are matched to existing categories and they are merged. So uploading them as they are IS nothing new. The problem is that when material is included that is not English, it means that it originates from outside of the Anglo Saxon world and thereby helps address the existing bias towards the anglo saxon world.
While material in Dutch does not help the English, the Spanish, the Japanese, it only means that people that only speak Spanish or Japanse will find that to them Commons does not provide any service, add any value. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know
English
??
Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload
facility
of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find
the
images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the
people
who do not speak English.
When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there
for..
Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to
be
gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about
Indonesia
should
be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up
of
material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into
English
does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam
about
making
> their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an
important
> collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a
rich
> collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about
100.000
> images. > > The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come
with
unique > identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and
it
will
come > with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I
understand
it
the
> equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation > in English and, this can be provided to us as well. > > The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of
museums
in
the > Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more
museums
in > Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German ....
While
we > aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not
provide
> language support. Language support will help people find pictures
in
their > language and will help the matching of categories into other
languages.
> Thanks, > GerardM > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids
translation
into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find
people
who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows
them
to
translate it.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
And when something is uploaded in Dutch, how do you expect this to help Spanish speakers? Or Japanese speakers? When you translate to English, you facilitate translation into other languages too. I'm not saying translate to English and let it be, I'm saying translate it to English to aid in retranslation.
-Chad
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, OK, there are *many* pictures of a marc'h on Commons... Now pretend that you cannot find what this is in English. Try to find it on Commons.
Noone disputes that this is a problem. And if we had an unlimited number of volunteers fluent in all languages adding descriptions to images, it would easily be fixed. But if that were the case, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.
Image descriptions are, first and foremost, limited by the languages a user (who is willing to write these descriptions) speaks. Of all these languages, the user will (if he has time and ability to write one or two descriptions) chose maybe his native one, and the one that will be useful for most people - English. (And yes, more people speak Chinese, but few Commons editors do).
Once again, ugly reality triumphs over wishful thinking. At least until we can get some 10K Indonesian-speaking editors.
Magnus
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Magnus Manskemagnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, OK, there are *many* pictures of a marc'h on Commons... Now pretend that you cannot find what this is in English. Try to find it on Commons.
Noone disputes that this is a problem. And if we had an unlimited number of volunteers fluent in all languages adding descriptions to images, it would easily be fixed. But if that were the case, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.
Image descriptions are, first and foremost, limited by the languages a user (who is willing to write these descriptions) speaks. Of all these languages, the user will (if he has time and ability to write one or two descriptions) chose maybe his native one, and the one that will be useful for most people - English. (And yes, more people speak Chinese, but few Commons editors do).
[snip]
I have tried to advance the idea that some amount of description translations should be a requirement for featured/quality images on commons (also geocoding, as applicable and possible), with the notion that providing great metadata is part of what commons offers at it's best and that we'll get more translations if we make sure our high profile images have them (ModelBehavior).
Sadly, no one else has seemed to like the idea.
I've made sure that descriptions are provided in multiple languages on my own featured images, for example http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ferrofluid_large_spikes.jpg
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 6:15 AM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Magnus Manskemagnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, OK, there are *many* pictures of a marc'h on Commons... Now pretend that you cannot find what this is in English. Try to find it on Commons.
Noone disputes that this is a problem. And if we had an unlimited number of volunteers fluent in all languages adding descriptions to images, it would easily be fixed. But if that were the case, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.
Image descriptions are, first and foremost, limited by the languages a user (who is willing to write these descriptions) speaks. Of all these languages, the user will (if he has time and ability to write one or two descriptions) chose maybe his native one, and the one that will be useful for most people - English. (And yes, more people speak Chinese, but few Commons editors do).
[snip]
I have tried to advance the idea that some amount of description translations should be a requirement for featured/quality images on commons (also geocoding, as applicable and possible), with the notion that providing great metadata is part of what commons offers at it's best and that we'll get more translations if we make sure our high profile images have them (ModelBehavior).
Sadly, no one else has seemed to like the idea.
I've made sure that descriptions are provided in multiple languages on my own featured images, for example http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ferrofluid_large_spikes.jpg
It's not common, but I've occasionally encountered images that had such a large number of long translations that it was a usability problem. As currently constructed, image description translations are often presented as a wall of text that can be difficult if more than a few translations are present. I'd give Anime_Girl.svg [1] as a convenient recent example, though it is far from the worst of such images.
Personally, I'd like to see Commons make more use of language filtering so that image descriptions in languages other than a user's interface preference were subordinated in some way (such as by being collapsed, or moved lower in the page). Beyond Commons itself, I'd think this could be particularly valuable to local wikis using Commons as a shared repository since even IP visitors can usually be assumed to have a language preference based on the wiki they are reading. Obviously one would need a strategy for graceful language fallbacks when a user's preference was unavailable, but we have to do that in many other scenarios anyway.
Making many languages available is a good thing, but formatting the page to highlight a user declared preference would usually also be a good thing.
-Robert Rohde
2009/7/16 Robert Rohde rarohde@gmail.com:
Making many languages available is a good thing, but formatting the page to highlight a user declared preference would usually also be a good thing.
Agreed. I have recently prepared a simple JS script to hide other languages in the {{Picture of the day}} template. (You can test it at e.g. http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Neutrophil_with_anthrax_... – I plan to move it to Common.js soon, if no problems are reported.) I believe similar behavior should be introduced to many other templates. Obviously, in a perfect world, this would be a built-in behaviour of MediaWiki, but unfortunately, I don’t think it is really feasible in a foreseeable future…
-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]
Hoi, Annotating material is important at the same level as providing citations in our text. Annotation provides provenance and why should we believe the "truth" in a picture on Commons. Even the Commons picture of the year has been heavily photoshopped. It is only a credible picture because of the annotation.
Adding annotations like GIS info is great, even important, we should aim to get this information but we should not make it compulsory. Anyway, dealing with language and searching is a much more pressing issue but it does not need to be solved in a serial way.
NB there is no multi lingual solution when it does not involve searching pictures in that language. Because the problem with language is first and foremost finding the pictures in Commons. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/16 Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Magnus Manskemagnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, OK, there are *many* pictures of a marc'h on Commons... Now pretend that
you
cannot find what this is in English. Try to find it on Commons.
Noone disputes that this is a problem. And if we had an unlimited number of volunteers fluent in all languages adding descriptions to images, it would easily be fixed. But if that were the case, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.
Image descriptions are, first and foremost, limited by the languages a user (who is willing to write these descriptions) speaks. Of all these languages, the user will (if he has time and ability to write one or two descriptions) chose maybe his native one, and the one that will be useful for most people - English. (And yes, more people speak Chinese, but few Commons editors do).
[snip]
I have tried to advance the idea that some amount of description translations should be a requirement for featured/quality images on commons (also geocoding, as applicable and possible), with the notion that providing great metadata is part of what commons offers at it's best and that we'll get more translations if we make sure our high profile images have them (ModelBehavior).
Sadly, no one else has seemed to like the idea.
I've made sure that descriptions are provided in multiple languages on my own featured images, for example http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ferrofluid_large_spikes.jpg
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Hoi, The most important part of the multi lingual problem is not in the description but is in finding a picture of a subject. It means that we have to have a functional and searchable termbase. The key to enabling the use of Commons is help in finding pictures on a subject. This does not need much translation effort because you need to add the word Pferd only once. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/16 Magnus Manske magnusmanske@googlemail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, OK, there are *many* pictures of a marc'h on Commons... Now pretend that
you
cannot find what this is in English. Try to find it on Commons.
Noone disputes that this is a problem. And if we had an unlimited number of volunteers fluent in all languages adding descriptions to images, it would easily be fixed. But if that were the case, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.
Image descriptions are, first and foremost, limited by the languages a user (who is willing to write these descriptions) speaks. Of all these languages, the user will (if he has time and ability to write one or two descriptions) chose maybe his native one, and the one that will be useful for most people - English. (And yes, more people speak Chinese, but few Commons editors do).
Once again, ugly reality triumphs over wishful thinking. At least until we can get some 10K Indonesian-speaking editors.
Magnus
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On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Geoffrey Plourdegeo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
This is pictures right? I fail to see how pictures aren't useable to everyone, as they are universal.
files*
It's not about *using* the files, it's about *using* Wikimedia Commons. It's great that we can use pictures because they "universal", but people can't find them unless they speak English (categories, picture names, a lot of captions are only in English). I think this is what Gerard is saying.
Hi,
I think the questions to ask are:
* How many Indonesians speak Dutch, compared to those that speak English?
* When you try to translate to Indonesian (a laudable goal), will you have more chances to find translators with Dutch and English, rather than with just Dutch?
The (obvious) answers aside, if this is going to be a bulk upload, maybe it should be planned: * Gather all images, descriptions, and metadata on a (private) machine * Find a distinct set of often used key terms / tags * Translate those into English (and Indonesian, if you have a translator ready) * Assign (English) categories to tags * Build image descriptions for upload with both Dutch and English terms
I got another, loosely idea: Could we use the language templates in the descriptions to build a "missing matrix" of translations, for translators? I speak English and German; I would like to see images that only have a German description, and translate it to English. A special site (toolserver?) could show me the image and the German description, I enter the English one in a text box, and go to a page with everything prepared for me, just click save and be done.
Cheers, Magnus
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English.
When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia
should
be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into
English
does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about
making
their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about
100.000
images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it
will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it
the
equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more
museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German ....
While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not
provide
language support. Language support will help people find pictures in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other
languages.
Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it.
-Chad
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Magnus Manske magnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote:
[...] I got another, loosely idea: Could we use the language templates in the descriptions to build a "missing matrix" of translations, for translators? I speak English and German; I would like to see images that only have a German description, and translate it to English. A special site (toolserver?) could show me the image and the German description, I enter the English one in a text box, and go to a page with everything prepared for me, just click save and be done.
Go ahead: Toolserver's Templatetiger database has - though rather raw - data for Commons (cf. URI:http://toolserver.org/~kolossos/templatetiger/tt-table4.php?template=Information&lang=commonswiki&where=&is=). Problems I see:
- Tagging those pictures where the language of the descrip- tion is not specified (cf. [[File:Quail1.PNG]] (English) vs. [[File:Helsinkitram.jpg]] ((probably :-)) German). - Dealing with all the pictures that do not use {{Information}}.
Tim
I wrote:
[...] I got another, loosely idea: Could we use the language templates in the descriptions to build a "missing matrix" of translations, for translators? I speak English and German; I would like to see images that only have a German description, and translate it to English. A special site (toolserver?) could show me the image and the German description, I enter the English one in a text box, and go to a page with everything prepared for me, just click save and be done.
Go ahead: Toolserver's Templatetiger database has - though rather raw - data for Commons (cf. URI:http://toolserver.org/~kolossos/templatetiger/tt-table4.php?template=Information&lang=commonswiki&where=&is=). Problems I see:
- Tagging those pictures where the language of the descrip- tion is not specified (cf. [[File:Quail1.PNG]] (English) vs. [[File:Helsinkitram.jpg]] ((probably :-)) German).
- Dealing with all the pictures that do not use {{Information}}.
BTW, it would be awesome for traceability if this transla- tion thingy (and similar Toolserver tools like the Interwi- ki-Link-Checker) could execute those edits using the login credentials of the user who supplied the translation. (Yes, that's a bad idea if interpreted as written - I'm thinking of some JavaScript gadget that fires up an edit window for a random page from the hidden [[Category:Needs Language Tag- ging]] or [[Category:Has German and needs English Transla- tion]] followed by another gadget that positions the cursor in the sourcecode field accordingly and presets the summary line with "Added English translation.".)
Tim
If I understand you correctly this is a term base with fixed terms used to describe the images. Such term bases are very common in archives, and often they are standardized.
Often it is possible to translate between two sets of terms, that is some terms will match with our categories, but if this is not possible it is better to be able to search the terms as they are. If the terms are in Dutch they will not be available for searching in the language of choice for the most users.
There will be a very moderate a mouth of work to run the term base through Google translate and manually check the result, and then make a script to translate the term base into alternate languages. This will greatly extend the availability of the images.
It is not unlikely the term base already relates to some other public term base, perhaps it is a good idea to check it out. It would anyhow be interesting to make provisions to map term bases from Dublin Core and IPTC, probably also others, as an integral part of Commons.
John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ??
I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vacuum@jeb.no
At least the term base should be translated. John
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images.
The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with
unique
identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will
come
with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial
translation
in English and, this can be provided to us as well.
The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in
the
Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums
in
Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German .... While
we
aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in
their
language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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