Hoi,
What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is
experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for
people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.
In a previous mail you said that you think I consider people dogs that have
to do my bidding. I was deeply offended by that. This makes you as far as I
am concerned the wrong person to tell me what to do and the last person I
care to hear from.
When you "suffer together with", it is not you who does the suffering, it
is the other. What we need is no suffering but listening to the points that
are made and addressing those. As long as you mistake the delivery for the
message you fail.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 8 July 2016 at 11:23, Delphine Ménard <notafishz(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I disagree in so many ways with your words that I
don't even know
where to start. Compassion is not trying to put people in a lower
position, or trying to put yourself in a higher position. It never has
and never will be. Compassion is about caring for others and in that
particular instance, making sure you get your point across. Wiktionary
says it all: "Etymology: From Middle English, from Old French, from
Late Latin compassio (“sympathy”), from compati, past participle
compassus (“to suffer together with”), from Latin com- (“together”)
+ pati (“to suffer”); see passion."
I do not know any world where compassion is a bad thing. And as a
French living in Germany and working every day in English, I can tell
you that the article Nick pointed to has excellent tips to make sure
that people around you understand you, and ensure that communication
happens in the best possible way. The choice of words DOES matter.
And your point "Listening, understanding is where we have a problem"
is probably true on many levels. And if it is, I'd find it interesting
if you considered taking a piece of your own advice and reflected on
the way you address the people on this list.
Best,
Delphine
On 7 July 2016 at 10:00, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak,
it
puts you in a superior position. The problem is
much more in the
understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <michael.jahn(a)wikimedia.de> wrote:
> "it is not so much
> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
> how they challenge the status quo."
>
> --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
you
> still need words to make those points, and
while one may fail to
understand
> what points are being made, even if all the
words are understood
properly,
> the opposite makes the difference. If you
_don't_ understand the words
in
> the first place, i. e. attribute a different
meaning than the
> speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
> the points.
> So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> Michael
> Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>gt;:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
your
> > attitude is one where you have to be
compassionate for the benefit of
> > people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
you
> > see yourself as superior because your
English is so great and they
have a
> > problem with English or Anglo
culture.The logical conclusion is
probably
> > that English and Angloism has to be
central to what we do.
> >
> > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
> from
> > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
> group
> > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
> > notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
problem
> in
> > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> >
> > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that
we
> have
> > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
much
> > the words that are used but it is
understanding what points are made
and
> > how they challenge the status quo.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
nwilson(a)wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-co…
> > > A good essay.
> > >
> > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> > > language.
> > >
> > >
> > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> > >
> > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
> think
> > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
out”
> > vs.
> > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
when
> you
> > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
> out”.
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
doubly
> > > true for me, because I work with
Germans, who are famously direct.
The
> > > American habit of softening and
burying a request is just confusing
and
> > > pointless to them.
> > >
> > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> > language
> > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
> care
> > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> > > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
than
> > we
> > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> > >
> > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
there.
> > > It's still good overall,
though! ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> suggestions?
> > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
and
> the
> > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
that
> > > collects advice like this, is the
first section at
> > >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> page
> > > might I have missed?
> > >
> > > Quiddity
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
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