Gerard,
Since you appear to have little time for compassion, I will bluntly tell you what many
people here have appeared to be trying to get through to you in more diplomatic language,
and have made allowances for the fact that English is not apparently your home language.
I/We find you unnecessarily blunt, rude and abrasive in your communication. I don’t know
if this is intentional, but gentle hints do not seem to get through. We tolerate your
language most of the time because we value your input, but we do not like it.
I am not going to ask you to change your ways as it may not be possible, or you may not
want to do so. It is your choice.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard
Meijssen
Sent: Thursday, 07 July 2016 10:00 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English
speakers
Hoi,
You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a
superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has
to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening,
understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <michael.jahn(a)wikimedia.de> wrote:
"it is not so much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
--> you
still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
understand what points are being made, even if all the words are
understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_
understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different
meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a
position to understand the points.
So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
Michael
Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>gt;:
Hoi,
I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the
benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this
means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is
so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The
logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be central to what we
do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is
people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It
is highly biased
by
group
think and I have observed that there is little
willingness to
consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The
biggest problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to
consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that
we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider
that it is not so
much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are
made and how they challenge the status quo.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
<nwilson(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communica
te-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> A good essay.
>
> TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a
> second language.
>
>
> Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
>
> > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master.
> > Just
think
about
“cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
vs.
> “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
> when
you
> recommend “cutting back” on something, or
asking someone to “cut
> it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your
request. This is
doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
The American habit of softening and burying a request is just
confusing and pointless to them.
> The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
> barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because
> we
care
about
collaborating with people who are different from us [...].
And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even
more than
we
> are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
>
> n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there.
> It's still good overall, though! ;-)
>
>
> I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
> I've gotten (happily) lost in the
[[Multilingual]] disambig page,
> and
the
> [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the
only place I can find
> that collects advice like this, is the first section at
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I
have missed?
Quiddity
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