https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com... A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs. “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”. [...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
Quiddity
Nick, thanks for sharing! This is really awesome. (Or should I write: "This is helpful" to fit into the German stereotype? :D)
Link it on Meta: I found https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_present... and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to be a bit outdated/not visited very often.
Might also make sense to link it on the general conference/Hackathon pages like https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons/Hackathon_tips_for_organizers#Comm... ?
cheers Birgit
2016-07-05 21:59 GMT+02:00 Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com... A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs. “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”. [...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
2016-07-05 21:59 GMT+02:00 Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org:
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Birgit Müller birgit.mueller@wikimedia.de wrote:
Link it on Meta: I found https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_present... and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to be a bit outdated/not visited very often.
Perhaps https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Writing_clearly as well?
-Yusuke
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Birgit Müller birgit.mueller@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nick, thanks for sharing! This is really awesome. (Or should I write: "This is helpful" to fit into the German stereotype? :D)
Link it on Meta: I found https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_present... and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to be a bit outdated/not visited very often.
Might also make sense to link it on the general conference/Hackathon pages like https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons/Hackathon_tips_for_organizers#Comm... ?
cheers Birgit
2016-07-05 21:59 GMT+02:00 Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com... A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs. “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”. [...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- Birgit Müller Community Communications Manager Software Development and Engineering
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 http://wikimedia.de
Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de/
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Yusuke Matsubara whym@whym.org wrote:
Perhaps https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Writing_clearly as well?
Perfect, thanks! I had already watchlisted that at some point, but I didn't find it whilst searching. I'll look around later, to see where else that page could be usefully linked from.
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Birgit Müller
birgit.mueller@wikimedia.de wrote:
Nick, thanks for sharing! This is really awesome. (Or should I write:
"This
is helpful" to fit into the German stereotype? :D)
Haha! Yes, at Wikimania, various people from a few Northern European countries commented on the habit in some cultures (particularly North American) of frequently using superlatives. The tangential example that I immediately thought of, is the song from The Lego Movie, "Everything Is Awesome".
Link it on Meta: I found
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_giving_a_Wikipedia_present...
and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations, but both pages seem to
be a
bit outdated/not visited very often.
Might also make sense to link it on the general conference/Hackathon
pages
like
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons/Hackathon_tips_for_organizers#Comm...
?
I was initially thinking of it more as a guide to clearly-written (and empathetically-read) communication, but yes, presentations are also relevant. Maybe we should just interlink the [[Writing clearly]] page, from one or more of those.
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. [...]
I think I understand what you mean, but I'd suggest that this is a perfect example of what the article is about. You have focused on the word-choice of "compassion", and a specific definition of that word. We could instead, interpret the intent of the author more towards the definition of "empathy" or "consideration". The article could (should! AGF!) instead be more generously interpreted, to be about cross-language communication in general, and to understand that it was simply written by someone who uses English as their primary language hence it approaches the issue from that perspective.
I.e. The same advice all applies if you work/communicate in a group that uses [Japanese] as the primary language, but some of the participants are not native [Japanese] speakers.
So, I'd reword your conclusion, as "we have to be empathetic (or considerate) towards people for whom our native language (whatever that may be) is not their own."
It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but
it is understanding what points are made
Exactly! :-) We should be careful about spending too much effort arguing about the nuances of word choice, especially in informal discussions (versus drafting a policy or writing code or similar, where word-choice can be crucial!), and instead try to interpret what other people are saying/writing, with an assumption of positive intent.
Hope that helps, Quiddity / Nick
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people from all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by group think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem in this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we have to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com... A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs. “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”. [...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But you still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people from all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by group think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem in this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we have to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”. [...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn michael.jahn@wikimedia.de wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But you still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Gerard, I for one do not really understand the point you are making..., especially as it relates to best practices in communicating across cultures and linguistic backgrounds.
Best regards, Bence
On Thursday, 7 July 2016, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <michael.jahn@wikimedia.de javascript:;> wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
you
still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
understand
what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
properly,
the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com javascript:;>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
you
see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
have a
problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
probably
that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
and
how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <nwilson@wikimedia.org
wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
The
American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
and
pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
there.
It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
that
collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; ?subject=unsubscribe>
I have a similar feeling while reading this article: the author has the best intentions but her attitude in doing them is way so wrong.
Vito
Il 07/07/2016 10:32, Bence Damokos ha scritto:
Gerard, I for one do not really understand the point you are making..., especially as it relates to best practices in communicating across cultures and linguistic backgrounds.
Best regards, Bence
On Thursday, 7 July 2016, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <michael.jahn@wikimedia.de javascript:;> wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
you
still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
understand
what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
properly,
the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com javascript:;>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
you
see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
have a
problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
probably
that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
and
how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <nwilson@wikimedia.org
wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
The
American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
and
pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
there.
It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
that
collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; ?subject=unsubscribe>
Hoi, My native language is not English, my culture is not Anglocentric and I hate to be patronised. If that is best practice, you can enshrine it and not get a message out, your arguments heard and more importantly not hear what others are saying. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 10:32, Bence Damokos bdamokos@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, I for one do not really understand the point you are making..., especially as it relates to best practices in communicating across cultures and linguistic backgrounds.
Best regards, Bence
On Thursday, 7 July 2016, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak,
it
puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <michael.jahn@wikimedia.de javascript:;> wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
and
how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
you
still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
understand
what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
properly,
the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words
in
the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to
understand
the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com javascript:;>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
your
attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
you
see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
have a
problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
probably
that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is
people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to
consider
notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that
we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
and
how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
nwilson@wikimedia.org
wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a
second
language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
The
American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
and
pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...].
And
non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
there.
It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
that
collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; ?subject=unsubscribe>
--
Bence Damokos
Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Gerard, Since you appear to have little time for compassion, I will bluntly tell you what many people here have appeared to be trying to get through to you in more diplomatic language, and have made allowances for the fact that English is not apparently your home language. I/We find you unnecessarily blunt, rude and abrasive in your communication. I don’t know if this is intentional, but gentle hints do not seem to get through. We tolerate your language most of the time because we value your input, but we do not like it. I am not going to ask you to change your ways as it may not be possible, or you may not want to do so. It is your choice. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: Thursday, 07 July 2016 10:00 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn michael.jahn@wikimedia.de wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But --> you still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communica te-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscrib e
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7640 / Virus Database: 4613/12573 - Release Date: 07/07/16
Lol Peter you hullarious, I thought this thread is exactly about how you could put the style Gerard writes his emails into his cultural context :)
Rupert On Jul 7, 2016 15:19, "Peter Southwood" peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Gerard, Since you appear to have little time for compassion, I will bluntly tell you what many people here have appeared to be trying to get through to you in more diplomatic language, and have made allowances for the fact that English is not apparently your home language. I/We find you unnecessarily blunt, rude and abrasive in your communication. I don’t know if this is intentional, but gentle hints do not seem to get through. We tolerate your language most of the time because we value your input, but we do not like it. I am not going to ask you to change your ways as it may not be possible, or you may not want to do so. It is your choice. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: Thursday, 07 July 2016 10:00 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] How to communicate compassionately with non-native English speakers
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn michael.jahn@wikimedia.de wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But --> you still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be
central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communica te-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
there.
It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscrib e
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7640 / Virus Database: 4613/12573 - Release Date: 07/07/16
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I disagree in so many ways with your words that I don't even know where to start. Compassion is not trying to put people in a lower position, or trying to put yourself in a higher position. It never has and never will be. Compassion is about caring for others and in that particular instance, making sure you get your point across. Wiktionary says it all: "Etymology: From Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin compassio (“sympathy”), from compati, past participle compassus (“to suffer together with”), from Latin com- (“together”) + pati (“to suffer”); see passion."
I do not know any world where compassion is a bad thing. And as a French living in Germany and working every day in English, I can tell you that the article Nick pointed to has excellent tips to make sure that people around you understand you, and ensure that communication happens in the best possible way. The choice of words DOES matter.
And your point "Listening, understanding is where we have a problem" is probably true on many levels. And if it is, I'd find it interesting if you considered taking a piece of your own advice and reflected on the way you address the people on this list.
Best,
Delphine
On 7 July 2016 at 10:00, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak, it puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn michael.jahn@wikimedia.de wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But you still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to understand what points are being made, even if all the words are understood properly, the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words in the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that your attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that you see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they have a problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is probably that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) nwilson@wikimedia.org wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.
In a previous mail you said that you think I consider people dogs that have to do my bidding. I was deeply offended by that. This makes you as far as I am concerned the wrong person to tell me what to do and the last person I care to hear from.
When you "suffer together with", it is not you who does the suffering, it is the other. What we need is no suffering but listening to the points that are made and addressing those. As long as you mistake the delivery for the message you fail. Thanks, GerardM
On 8 July 2016 at 11:23, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
I disagree in so many ways with your words that I don't even know where to start. Compassion is not trying to put people in a lower position, or trying to put yourself in a higher position. It never has and never will be. Compassion is about caring for others and in that particular instance, making sure you get your point across. Wiktionary says it all: "Etymology: From Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin compassio (“sympathy”), from compati, past participle compassus (“to suffer together with”), from Latin com- (“together”)
- pati (“to suffer”); see passion."
I do not know any world where compassion is a bad thing. And as a French living in Germany and working every day in English, I can tell you that the article Nick pointed to has excellent tips to make sure that people around you understand you, and ensure that communication happens in the best possible way. The choice of words DOES matter.
And your point "Listening, understanding is where we have a problem" is probably true on many levels. And if it is, I'd find it interesting if you considered taking a piece of your own advice and reflected on the way you address the people on this list.
Best,
Delphine
On 7 July 2016 at 10:00, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak,
it
puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words. Thanks, GerardM
On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn michael.jahn@wikimedia.de wrote:
"it is not so much the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and how they challenge the status quo."
--> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
you
still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
understand
what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
properly,
the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words
in
the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand the points. So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much. Michael Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
Hoi, I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
your
attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
you
see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
have a
problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
probably
that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
from
all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
group
think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
problem
in
this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
have
to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
much
the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
and
how they challenge the status quo. Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
nwilson@wikimedia.org>
wrote:
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com...
A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
out”
vs.
“cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
when
you
recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
out”.
[...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
The
American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
and
pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
care
about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
than
we
are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
there.
It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
suggestions?
I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
and
the
[[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
that
collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
page
might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- @notafish
NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost. Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org Photos with simple eyes: notaphoto - http://photo.notafish.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On 8 July 2016 at 14:47, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.
Fair enough, sorry if my point came across that way, it was definitely not my intention to deny anything.
Please accept my apologies for offending you.
Best,
Delphine
Delphine,
I don't think Gerard was responding to you but an earlier comment about his lack of compassion in the way he engages with people on this list no matter what their home language.
I agree with your earlier post. I work with 2nd and 3rd and often 4th or 8th language speakers everyday and it is important that the meaning is found through the words - from both sides of the conversation. I am always aware that their English is far, far better than my non-existent Ebo, Xhosa, German or Shona. ;-)
And I hope that more idioms and expressions come through on this list ... I love them!
Warmest Isla
On Friday, 8 July 2016, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:
On 8 July 2016 at 14:47, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com javascript:;> wrote:
Hoi, What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.
Fair enough, sorry if my point came across that way, it was definitely not my intention to deny anything.
Please accept my apologies for offending you.
Best,
Delphine
-- @notafish
NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost. Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org Photos with simple eyes: notaphoto - http://photo.notafish.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; ?subject=unsubscribe>
Very good and also very accurate.
It reminds it also works the other way. When I was in Australia 1979 discussing a delicate project proposal, I stated "to resolve this we need to have ice in the stomach " and getting a big question mark on everyone's face as a response. Iit seemed this well used Swedish expression was not as international as I had taken for granted (and they still make jokes on me for this) .:-)
Anders
Den 2016-07-05 kl. 21:59, skrev Nick Wilson (Quiddity):
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com... A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs. “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”. [...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I agree! But what what does an icy stomach mean - to be strong? There are lots of Dutch expressions that my family has taken over and use regularly in English now such as "Now comes the monkey out of the sleeve" (revealing the hidden agenda), "Go your gang" (go ahead) and "That's mustard after the meal" (too little too late)
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Anders Wennersten <mail@anderswennersten.se
wrote:
Very good and also very accurate.
It reminds it also works the other way. When I was in Australia 1979 discussing a delicate project proposal, I stated "to resolve this we need to have ice in the stomach " and getting a big question mark on everyone's face as a response. Iit seemed this well used Swedish expression was not as international as I had taken for granted (and they still make jokes on me for this) .:-)
Anders
Den 2016-07-05 kl. 21:59, skrev Nick Wilson (Quiddity):
https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-com... A good essay.
TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second language.
Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just think
about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut out” vs. “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be when you recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it out”. [...]
Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is doubly
true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct. The American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing and pointless to them.
The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across language
barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we care about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more than we are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in there. It's still good overall, though! ;-)
I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any suggestions? I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page, and the [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find that collects advice like this, is the first section at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What page might I have missed?
Quiddity _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
2016-07-07 11:05 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
I agree! But what what does an icy stomach mean - to be strong?
In Swedish, to have ice in your stomach (ha is i magen) means to act slowly and deliberately, not rushing ahead without thinking everything through. And yes, keeping the idioms of your native language out of your English is one of the more challenging communication aspects for non-native speakers, something we always have to be aware of.
//Johan Jönsson --
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org