Thanks a lot for the answers! I made a note in our rules: editing is allowed, but with caution, so that the photo can still be used in Wikipédia articles. In any case de author can also upload the original.

Susana

2011/7/22 Andre Koopal andre@molens.org

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 09:24:47AM +0100, Susana Morais wrote:

...

Hello everybody,

We received an e-mail from someone interested in participating in the contest, asking if it is possible to edit the photos (black and white, sepia, etc). Has there already been some discussion about this?

In the orginal contest it was accepted, but you need just look at the 3 criteria, technical correct, useable for wikipedia, and nice pictures.

If you overdo the editing, you will probably loose on the second criterium.

Regards,

Andre

...

Thanks,

Susana

...

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2011/7/22 Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org:

Hi Susana, we indeed discussed this in Berlin as well. In the Netherlands we had some images overly edited ( for example http://www.flickr.com/photos/drutenonline/5040086616/in/pool-1516413@N22/%C2.... We decided in Berlin that we would leave it up to the jury, assuming that this specific issue would be covered sufficiently by the "useful on Wikipedia" jury instruction. It might be indeed a good idea to suggest to always also submit the original. Of course editing and then submitting is only allowed if the photo is own work, and editing other people's work would not result in a valid new submission.

This picture is typical example of HDR - in case of HDR - there is no single original... HDR-s are made as a mix of set of shots of one picture. HDR is quite often a very usefull as a documentary - especially for night shots and poor light conditions. I think for such a cases the jury might decide if the the picture is OK - or it is over-edited... Just general requirement for good-quality pictures in Commons could be used:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Quality_images

Hello, Last year in the Netherlands some black&white pictures and some heavy edited pictures where uploaded. Many of those where pictures allready on Flickr of which the uploaders only had to switch the license. There where 2000 pictures (15%) uploaded throught Flickr (consider this possibility for your country). I guess like 100-400 of these where visibly edited. so this is just 50-200 more monuments covered. black and white or sepia shouldn't be a big problem, because also older pictures are allowed in the contest, some of these are only available in these colours. Some examples from last year:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dorpsstraat_16-2.jpghttp://commons.wi... (editing ruined this one, composition was one of the best but..)http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Liefhoven-2.jpghttp://commons.wikimed... See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Basvb/500 for 500 more "opvallende" pictures from last years WLM. Mvg, Bas Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:06:38 +0100 From: susana.morais@wikimedia.pt To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] About editing

Thanks a lot for the answers! I made a note in our rules: editing is allowed, but with caution, so that the photo can still be used in Wikipédia articles. In any case de author can also upload the original.

Susana

2011/7/22 Andre Koopal andre@molens.org

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 09:24:47AM +0100, Susana Morais wrote:

Hello everybody,

We received an e-mail from someone interested in participating in the

contest, asking if it is possible to edit the photos (black and white,

sepia, etc). Has there already been some discussion about this?

In the orginal contest it was accepted, but you need just look at the

3 criteria, technical correct, useable for wikipedia, and nice pictures.

If you overdo the editing, you will probably loose on the second criterium.

Regards,

Andre

Thanks,

Susana

Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list

WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments

http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu

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Dont worry, we didnt turn it into a rule, the editing will be a question of common sense.

Susana

2011/7/22 Maarten Dammers maarten@mdammers.nl

Hi Susana,

Op 22-7-2011 11:06, Susana Morais schreef:

...

Thanks a lot for the answers! I made a note in our rules: editing is allowed, but with caution, so that the photo can still be used in Wikipédia articles. In any case de author can also upload the original.

You should make a distinction between the rules of the competition: only own work, upload to Commons, etc, and the guidelines: High resolution, don't overprocess, etc. Rules can't be broken. If you deviate from guidelines you should have a pretty damn good reason, but that's possible. An example of guidelines is

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/Commons:Image_guidelines . If you don't do this you'll end up with tons of rules.

Maarten

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Hi Hubert,

thanks for summarizing your ideas. The actual situation will be a little different most likely. I had a short chat with Maarten yesterday, and it seems like the upload form progress is going well. Don't pin me down on details, but this should give an idea.

1. We will indeed be able to use the new upload wizard 2. There will be a 'campaign' for each country. For example the campaign 'wlm-ch' 3. Each campaign will be translated into several languages (always make English available for tourists!), for example uselang=en 4. It will not be possible to call a database during the upload process. 5. The user will provide the identifier of the object in the form 6. Information like categories, object names etc can be added later with a bot, based on this identifier. 7. Whether prefilling based on the url is possible or not is to be found out.

I know this is not perfect, but this seems to be the best we can realistically aim for right now. What would be very very helpful by the way is if someone could hack a special Commonist together. Removing all the unnecessary fields, tweaking it for WLM and make mass uploading that way easier.

Lodewijk

2011/7/22 Hubert hubert.laska@gmx.at

We can summarize the yesterday discussion and Upload-form-demonstration, I think we all agree so far:

An enormously important point for the entire project WLM is the ability to simplify the uploading process for the participants of the photo contest. Basically, this is quiet easy to create, but we must emphasize the following:

1. Before any participation is the registration - the actual situation

is not reduceable.

indeed

2. To the participants it must be given some specific requirements

without choice: That is: "Own work" as well as the predefined license.

yup

3. Thus there remains only that the participants upload his image and

the ability, to give a personal description (if desired).

Upload the image and give identifier (either prefilled or not)

That's all from the perspective of the participant. Our perspective results in further, much more important considerations:

1. We need to identify the images - The easiest way is a country code

and the object ID as a minimal setting.

Country code: campaign (which form do you use) ID: identifier field

2. To reduce further work from our side, the images should be

categorized at the same time while the upload-process takes place, but this requires a good category management, which at least will assume the category-system from Wikipedia to Commons.

This will have to happen with a bot.

3. In addition, we should automatically hand over as much information as

possible (or necessary). This is: name of the object, address of the object (district, town name, adress), geographic coordinates, perhaps also an existing short description of inside the monument-tables. But that presupposes the access to the upload-form directly from Wikipedia (cultural monument tables).

This will have to happen after uploading with a bot.

4. Images of cultural objects, which are not officially designated

cultural monuments (and therefore not included in the lists) can be uploaded via the parish or other articles, thus we need an Community-Code as the ID key, zip code, an the country code as a minimum requirement.

If the monument is not in the list, they can not participate in the contest unfortunately. At least, that is the very basis of the contest, if an exception to that is necessary, lets discuss that in a seperate thread.

5. We need to clarify that only images can participate in this contest,

which are uploaded in September. This can be regulated, so that any upload from the relevant pages with the special upload form is only possible, when this forms are unlocked on september, 1. Only with the upload form the object ID can be transfered.

A bot can easily change templates of all uploads with the WLM template which are uploaded before Sept 1. No need to worry about that.

6. We need to ensure in Commons itself, that any uploading for the

competition must be easily visible through a special selection of different forms. This requires a clear indication (banners etc)

All this concerns only one aspect of the complete project, but it is neccessary for the persistent use of the images via Commons, as well as for the assessment by the national judging panels.

That implementation is possible to handover all the information with an link, I demonstrated yesterday. Our task should be to explore the already existing links to the individual objects within Wikipedia and to integrate into the overall concept.

Technically that is possible yes, however it is unsure if this would also be possible in a simplified form. The form you used is unfortunately incomprehensible for most mortals. I usually suggest that my grandmother should be able to participate.

greetings from Vienna

Hubertl

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OK, just to clarify:

2011/7/22 Hubert hubert.laska@gmx.at

Am 22.07.2011 12:01, schrieb Lodewijk:

...

Hi Hubert,

thanks for summarizing your ideas. The actual situation will be a little different most likely. I had a short chat with Maarten yesterday, and it seems like the upload form progress is going well. Don't pin me down on details, but this should give an idea.�

1. We will indeed be able to use the new upload wizard

hi Lodewijk, We do not care which upload-Form we will use, important for us is the possibility to handover predefined informations.

...

2. There will be a 'campaign' for each country. For example the campaign

'wlm-ch'

The same in Austria, but this will be part of my next efforts, what possibilities we have, especially if and how we are able to place category-related banner inside Wikipedia.

...

3. Each campaign will be translated into several languages (always make

English available for tourists!), for example uselang=en 4. It will not be possible to call a database during the upload process.�

I know it. Therefor our solution, using informations directly from the Tables.

...

5. The user will provide the identifier of the object in the form

This is exactly, what we will avoid. What happens, if the User have no idea, where he will get the ID? This is, in my opinion, the first weak point in the system.

Last year we did this too, and it worked quite well. We had several methods explained how they could find the identifier - through Wikipedia's lists, through a map with all the monuments on it (using the coordinates) or in another way. I believe someone was working on making it possible to query the database too etc. Maarten (or someone else) might be able to give more details. We can provide a link to that within the form. If we can transfer the identifier with the url, we could prefill it. But that assumes they already look it up on beforehand.

...

6. Information like categories, object names etc can be added later with

a bot, based on this identifier.

Unless we have to do with computer-affinity users, this will be no problem, because the latter will find the user ID. But what happens to those, the computer (and Wikipedia) is not more than a simple tool and not familiar with Alt-tab or Ctrl-tab having problems with several browser-tabs at the same time? Seniors? Pupils?

OK, I was not clear here I guess. Some volunteers will add this information with a bot for /all/ uploads, based on the database (which is again based on the wikipedia lists). If you are a pupil, then don't worry - just upload and we will take care of the rest.

My own experience with Commons was, that I tried three times, unless I uploaded my first picture successfully. But I am Wikipedian since 2004 with 80.000 edits!

...

7. Whether prefilling based on the url is possible or not is to be found

out.�

Yes. We demonstrated one single possibility, which is - of course - optimized for austrian monument lists.

...

I know this is not perfect, but this seems to be the best we can realistically aim for right now. What would be very very helpful by the way is if someone could hack a special Commonist together. Removing all the unnecessary fields, tweaking it for WLM and make mass uploading that way easier.�

jepp.

Hubertl.

...

Lodewijk

2011/7/22 Hubert <hubert.laska@gmx.at mailto:hubert.laska@gmx.at>

We can summarize the yesterday discussion and

Upload-form-demonstration,

...

I think we all agree so far:

An enormously important point for the entire project WLM is the

ability

...

to simplify the uploading process for the participants of the photo
contest. Basically, this is quiet easy to create, but we must

emphasize

...

the following:

1. Before any participation is the registration - the actual

situation

...

is not reduceable.

indeed �

2. To the participants it must be given some specific requirements
without choice: That is: "Own work" as well as the predefined

license.

...

yup �

3. Thus there remains only that the participants upload his image and
the ability, to give a personal description (if desired).

Upload the image and give identifier (either prefilled or not) �

That's all from the perspective of the participant. Our perspective
results in further, much more important considerations:

1. We need to identify the images - The easiest way is a country code
and the object ID as a minimal setting.

Country code: campaign (which form do you use) ID: identifier field �

2. To reduce further work from our side, the images should be
categorized at the same time while the upload-process takes place,

but

...

this requires a good category management, which at least will assume

the

...

category-system from Wikipedia to Commons.

This will have to happen with a bot.� �

3. In addition, we should automatically hand over as much information

as

...

possible (or necessary). This is: name of the object, address of the
object (district, town name, adress), geographic coordinates, perhaps
also an existing short description of inside the monument-tables. But
that presupposes the access to the upload-form directly from

Wikipedia

...

(cultural monument tables).

This will have to happen after uploading with a bot.� �

4. Images of cultural objects, which are not officially designated
cultural monuments (and therefore not included in the lists) can be
uploaded via the parish or other articles, thus we need an
Community-Code �as the ID key, zip code, an the country code as a
minimum requirement.

If the monument is not in the list, they can not participate in the contest unfortunately. At least, that is the very basis of the contest, if an exception to that is necessary, lets discuss that in a seperate thread.� �

5. We need to clarify that only images can participate in this

contest,

...

which are uploaded in September. This can be regulated, so that any
upload from the relevant pages with the special upload form is only
possible, when this forms are unlocked on september, 1. Only with the
upload form the object ID can be transfered.

A bot can easily change templates of all uploads with the WLM template which are uploaded before Sept 1. No need to worry about that.� �

6. We need to ensure in Commons itself, that any uploading for the
competition must be easily visible through a special selection of
different forms. This requires a clear indication (banners etc)

All this concerns only one aspect of the complete project, but it is
neccessary for the persistent use of the images via Commons, as well

as

...

for the assessment by the national judging panels.

That implementation is possible to handover all the information with

an

...

link, I demonstrated yesterday. Our task should be to explore the
already existing links to the individual objects within Wikipedia and

to

...

integrate into the overall concept.

Technically that is possible yes, however it is unsure if this would also be possible in a simplified form. The form you used is unfortunately incomprehensible for most mortals. I usually suggest that my grandmother should be able to participate.�

�

greetings from Vienna

Hubertl

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