Thomas R. Koll wrote:
On Mon, Dec 27, 2004 at 04:46:13PM +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
The wikimedia projects have a rule that the only soundfiles allowed are the .ogg files. This is a handicap as many people do not have software to play these files. So the only way to have people GET the necessary software is by making these files more relevant. The next question is HOW do you make them relevant.
On de: we have now 35 spoken articles, some quite outdated but it's a beginning. All ogg of course.
About the other things, I think you should retry it but this time include all the other big religious events like Ramadan, Chanukka, Chinese New Year etc.
ciao, tom
For the nl:wiktionary we have over 300 sound files with pronunciations of words in the Dutch language alone. They are much easier to use than phonetic notations. As such it would be cool to have the standard pronunciations recorded and available from Commons for all wiktionary words.
As to the project. There are many more projects in wiktionary that are more important than also having wishes for ramadan, chanukka just to satisfy this false sense of "equality" of some. When someone starts to record these wishes in wiktionary, I will be happy to lend a hand.
On the English wiktionary there is a project to have the 1000 "most important" words defined and translated to many languages. There are people experimenting with bots that may automagically copy content from one wiktionary to another. There are the many thousands of words that we would like to add to the wikitonaries and have in files on our local harddisks. There are the phrases that people may want to know when they go abroud. There are the ideas about a next generation wiktionary. There is the GEMET data that we really want to include in the wiktionaries. There is so much more going on than just this project that was intended as a fun thing to do.
The "Buon Natale" project was a small fun project with an intentional small scope. We love it. It was and is fun. But it is what we made it and not what someone else wants it to be. I am not aware of people sending cards at chanukka or ramadan. I also do not know if and how you say "Happy Ramandan". We have written several times during the last month or so about our project and everytime we asked people to contribute and expand the project by writing about the traditions that they know. Not only but also about their christmas.
So again, do write about channuka and ramandan in wikipedia and do add relevant phrases and words in wiktionary. Inform us about the difference times of the start of ramadan. About the three days of the birth of Jezus. About the differences in the way a christmastree is decorated in Italy compared to Germany. About the carp as a traditional dish at easter in Poland. But other people do have different sensibilities and do not make what you believe override everything and everyone else believes and values. To me the censorship of the "Bon Natale" project was a nasty surprise, to me it shows an intolerance that I had not expected from the wikipedia crowd.
There will be other projects and other moments, that will be mo
Thanks, GerardM
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:22:51 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerardm@myrealbox.com wrote:
For the nl:wiktionary we have over 300 sound files with pronunciations of words in the Dutch language alone. They are much easier to use than phonetic notations. As such it would be cool to have the standard pronunciations recorded and available from Commons for all wiktionary words.
I agree, the only phonetic notation I understand is Spanish.
As to the project. There are many more projects in wiktionary that are more important than also having wishes for ramadan, chanukka just to satisfy this false sense of "equality" of some. When someone starts to record these wishes in wiktionary, I will be happy to lend a hand.
On the English wiktionary there is a project to have the 1000 "most important" words defined and translated to many languages. There are people experimenting with bots that may automagically copy content from one wiktionary to another. There are the many thousands of words that we would like to add to the wikitonaries and have in files on our local harddisks. There are the phrases that people may want to know when they go abroud. There are the ideas about a next generation wiktionary. There is the GEMET data that we really want to include in the wiktionaries. There is so much more going on than just this project that was intended as a fun thing to do.
The "Buon Natale" project was a small fun project with an intentional small scope. We love it. It was and is fun. But it is what we made it and not what someone else wants it to be. I am not aware of people sending cards at chanukka or ramadan. I also do not know if and how you say "Happy Ramandan". We have written several times during the last month or so about our project and everytime we asked people to contribute and expand the project by writing about the traditions that they know. Not only but also about their christmas.
Ramadan is one of those meaningful holidays, not the happy kind (like TV news anchors won't tell people to have a Happy Yon Kippur). There's probably some Arabic greeting used throughout much of the Islamic world, so its probably not as interesting of a project.
So again, do write about channuka and ramandan in wikipedia and do add relevant phrases and words in wiktionary. Inform us about the difference times of the start of ramadan. About the three days of the birth of Jezus. About the differences in the way a christmastree is decorated in Italy compared to Germany. About the carp as a traditional dish at easter in Poland. But other people do have different sensibilities and do not make what you believe override everything and everyone else believes and values. To me the censorship of the "Bon Natale" project was a nasty surprise, to me it shows an intolerance that I had not expected from the wikipedia crowd.
There will be other projects and other moments, that will be mo
Thanks, GerardM
People are overly sensitive on the subject. You stumbled into a dispute which has already occurred regarding whether to turn the Wikipedia ball into a Christmas ornament (as the Italian Wikipedia did this year). I did think it was kind of odd that my boss wished us all a Merry Christmas even though about a 1/4 of my co-workers are Muslim. But, at the same time, who cares, I'm sure they didn't.
Ian
Hi, being in the middle of this discussion I'd like to underline some points and tell you what came out in a private conversation with Gerard, half joking half being serious. Sorry, probably this mail is going to be a very long one.
I am copying this message to wiktionary and wikipedia list ...
For the nl:wiktionary we have over 300 sound files with pronunciations of words in the Dutch language alone. They are much easier to use than phonetic notations. As such it would be cool to have the standard pronunciations recorded and available from Commons for all wiktionary words.
I agree, the only phonetic notation I understand is Spanish.
Sound files are the only way to really learn to understand a foreign language - the reason is quite simple: every region of a country pronounces things a bit different - so we need these soundfiles and if possible different versions of them - talking about German: take a person from Hamburg, one from Berlin and one from Munich and have them say the same sentence (not talking in dialect, but talking "pure German") - you'd be surprised ...
I cut the part Gerard wrote as I'll come back to it below.
Ramadan is one of those meaningful holidays, not the happy kind (like TV news anchors won't tell people to have a Happy Yon Kippur). There's probably some Arabic greeting used throughout much of the Islamic world, so its probably not as interesting of a project.
Why not? I think it is not only interesting, but it is a must to make people understand that Islam is one thing and yyy is another ... in many parts of the world people don't know anything about the Islam besides the fact that some of them are yyy (like there are catholic, protestant etc. etc. ones) - I am curious what you thought when you saw yyy (were you influenced by the media as you don't know enough about it yourself?) - I know many people that grew up with the muslim religion and they are more or less practicing - none of them are yyy, all very fine and helpful people, some of them real friends. Not knowing helps to create fear and fear helps to create racism - knowledge helps to create security - if you know about Ramadan start writing about it, start telling people about it - make them curious - it is the only way to globalise our world: understand the culture of each other.
So again, do write about channuka and ramandan in wikipedia and do add relevant phrases and words in wiktionary. Inform us about the difference times of the start of ramadan. About the three days of the birth of Jezus. About the differences in the way a christmastree is decorated in Italy compared to Germany. About the carp as a traditional dish at easter in Poland. But other people do have different sensibilities and do not make what you believe override everything and everyone else believes and values. To me the censorship of the "Bon Natale" project was a nasty surprise, to me it shows an intolerance that I had not expected from the wikipedia crowd.
There will be other projects and other moments, that will be mo
Thanks, GerardM
People are overly sensitive on the subject. You stumbled into a dispute which has already occurred regarding whether to turn the Wikipedia ball into a Christmas ornament (as the Italian Wikipedia did this year). I did think it was kind of odd that my boss wished us all a Merry Christmas even though about a 1/4 of my co-workers are Muslim. But, at the same time, who cares, I'm sure they didn't.
Again: I agree to what Gerard says - write about your religions and about those you know - create sentences, glossaries etc. etc. ask people for translations and help - this helps to get attention to all - "deleting" religion out of our lifes does not help anyone - creating knowledge and understanding is the only way to go. Even people not believing in anything: write about atheism, connect it to science. All the world talks about globalisation - the only way to globalise is to understand and accept diversity. If we try to uniform things we will have some very unexpected results - dangerous results. We can only accept things we understand - it is impossible to accept things we don't understand. It is easy to create propaganda against a group of people if hardly anyone knows details about their habits, if hardly anyone has friends there - it is quite impossible instead to create propaganda against a group of people you know well.
Let's take a part the political and religious points of view - everyone has to be heard and no one may be surpressed.
Some short notes about my life: I was born in a protestant lutheran region in Germany - when I was about 6 years old Siemens had lots of workers coming from Turkey and I remember well their ramadam period when everyone was waiting for dawn to start to prepare for dinner - it became part of our life - often I was at a friend's home in the evening and even not understanding a word of Turkish I felt at home - the same poeple who did not believe in Christmas allowed their children to participate when we prepared for our Christmas feast at school - often you could also see some stars painted on the windows, just like we did. As anywhere in Germany you find protestant and catholic people living in the same place and we prepared things together. This was the "globalisation" of a small village of approx. 6000 people. This kind of "living together" is not possible in huge cities and so many different cultures live one beneath another without knowing - really sad ... Now I live in Italy - people in this small village hardly know any other religion (at least up to some time ago) - better not to tell what they considered me to be ... and how surprised some were that I have a Christmas tree and a Crib at home ... some years ago I still worked as a German teacher - imagine where: in a catholic grammar school - and they wanted me to tell pupils about German protestantism as they believed this would help pupils to find their place in life ... strange, isn't it? To me it is not strange at all: only knowing whatever exists can help us to find our way of life.
But back to the Christmas project: while it seems as if people thought that the Christmas project would disturb other religions the strangest thing of all is that many contributions came from people not believing in Christmas ... so shouldn't we think a bit about what this means? To me this means that those people are really tollerant - they know and want others to know. And this takes me back to the conversation with Gerard. Talking about the project and what came out of it there was a point when i said: yes, really there's so much to tell about the different usages that one could build up a Chrismaspedia ... and then talking about religious and cultural feasts in general what came out was "no, not a Christmaspedia, but an Eventpedia that aims on showing on which day which feast/event is on anywhere in the world creating links to all the relevant articles on the wikimedia projects.
I am sure there are translations, literature, proverbs, glossaries etc. about any event of any culture and religion (don't forget to add them to the different projects).
Wikimedia is made for people by people, the best thing of all: it is free; culture and religion is part of all of us, understanding each other is fundamental - it will never be possible to be neutral as even neutrality is a very wide expression - to my opinion the only way we have to really globalise the world is to contribute to understand each other describing local habits, thoughts (even our own thoughts). Give and conserve wisdom to and for people is great and all wikimedia projects already do this - but wisdom is not all - we are humans and like all humans we need "food for the soul" and not only for the brain.
If you, yes you, who is reading this long letter now, are from another culture and/or religion - think about what you would like us to know and write about it - and ask others for help to make it grow - make people talk and more and more poeple will understand you and your culture, thus leading to what globalisation really means: open up frontiers, live together as peaceful as possible.
Thank you for your patience reading this long letter!
Wishing you all the best and
Seasons greetings ;-)
Ciao, Sabine
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