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Wikimania - Spanish - we need someone for proofreading in Spanish
by Sabine Cretella 06 Aug '05

06 Aug '05

Hi, we need someone for proofreading of some Spanish texts for Wikimania - is anyone here who could help us? Thanks, Sabine ___________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB http://mail.yahoo.it

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards
by Jim Breen 03 Aug '05

03 Aug '05

Greetings, [Sabine Cretella ([Wiktionary-l] languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards) writes:] >> I take this theme up since it is not only a Ultimate Wiktionary problem >> ... it is an actual problem for many minor languages. >> >> When there are several possibilities to write a word within a language >> these should be treated on an equal level. No-one may ever discriminate >> one of the possible spellings. I think this goes to the heart of the issue, and I totally agree with you. >> The important thing is that if these >> different spellings can be attributed to a ceratain "branch" it should >> be done. Those who cannot be classified just receive the general >> language classification. Hear, hear. >> Anyway: I am a translator for EN-DE and IT-DE now we have a pretty weird >> situation with German. There was a spelling reform that in a first place >> was adopted by all federal states and this year in autumn the new >> spelling should have become the only valid one... now in Germany these >> decisions are not taken centrally by the federal government in Berlin, >> but by the ministries for education and culture of the single federal >> states. Some of these federal states, among them Bavaria, will not >> accept the deadline of this year in autumn, but accept old and new >> writing. It is a funny situation for my job, since it could mean that a >> customer tells you that he wants the old spelling or the new spelling >> depending on where he lives and what he prefers or in most cases they >> will not even bother how things are written, since many don't even know >> the new spelling rules ... it is really a strange situation: imagine >> someone in Bavaria translates a text - legally he/she may use whatever >> ortography he/she likes - if the customer lives in a state where the old >> ortography is not valid anymore this can lead to a bad surprise. And in many countries there is no concept of a "correct" spelling or orthgraphy, and there would be outrage if an education ministry tried to enforce one. In Australia, for example, we generally use "British" spellings (of which there can be more than one for words such as recognize/recognise), but a few words sometimes take the "American" spelling. This is just a matter of usage. The main dictionary published here (Macquarie) records what is used, but makes no attempt to define what is correct. In Japan the education ministry issues advisories on matters such as which kanji should be used, or which portions of a word should be in kana, but the actual usage is varied and accepted. In fact, writers often adopt their own styles on this matter. (The big "Daijirin" dictionary published by Sanseido has "ikebana" written four different ways within the one entry.) With my Japanese-English dictionary I get occasional requests that I mark the English translational equivalents according to where that form of word is used. In fact it is very difficult to do so. While there are indeed two broad groupings in English spelling, when you get to the detailed level you can almost never say spelling X is only used in country Y, or in country A spelling B is the only one used. Cheers Jim -- Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton School of Information Technology, Tel: +61 3 9905 9554 Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia Fax: +61 3 9905 5146 (Monash Provider No. 00008C) ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions
by Jim Breen 02 Aug '05

02 Aug '05

[Muke Tever (Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions) writes:] >> Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed. >> >>> >> JB> Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings. >> JB> If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g., >> JB> English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese. >> >>> >> >> Many languages have different accepted spellings for the same word. >> >> Japanese with the three character sets. German with umlauts and ae, oe >> >> and ue or ss instead of ß. Esperanto accepts cx and ch for ^c. Dutch >> >> had at one time a preferred and a progressive spelling and English has >> >> some variants depending on the locality it is spoken. I'm sure it >> >> doesn't end there and it is something a multilingual dictionary has to >> >> cater for. Adding common misspellings shouldn't be all that hard. They >> >> simply need a possibility to be marked as such. The misspellings don't >> >> exactly have to be shown either (except maybe on demand), but when >> >> somebody uses them to search the database, the entries they point to >> >> should be found. >> > >> > Have a look at the latest design it caters for having some Miss >> > Pellings. >> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage#O… Yes, it mention "incorrect spelling", but is silent on the matter of valid spelling varinats. >> What about languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards? Indeed. If you look at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_us… you'll see Gerard and I have been, er, discussing this matter. Cheers Jim -- Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton School of Information Technology, Tel: +61 3 9905 9554 Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia Fax: +61 3 9905 5146 (Monash Provider No. 00008C) $B%8%`!&%V%j!<%s(B@$B%b%J%7%eBg3X(B

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions
by Jim Breen 02 Aug '05

02 Aug '05

[Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions) writes:] >> For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design >> criteria. It can be found here: >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage >> The Data design can be found here: >> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design I have added some comments to the Discussion pages of those two. >> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed. Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings. If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g., English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese. >> This >> means that all incorrect spelling will be amended or deleted. As >> Ultimate Wiktionary is a database, it does not cater for things like >> redirects. I urge you to have a look at both the design criteria and the >> design itself because this is the time when it is relatively easy to >> make changes. Once Erik starts coding the UW database, having finished >> Wikidata and the GEMET implementation, the moment has passed us by. Indeed. Jim -- Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton School of Information Technology, Tel: +61 3 9905 9554 Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia Fax: +61 3 9905 5146 (Monash Provider No. 00008C) ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学

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Re: [Wiktionary-l] Redirects (Was: nds is now lowercase ..)
by Jim Breen 30 Jul '05

30 Jul '05

[Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] nds is now lowercase ..) writes:] >> >> In your mail to the wikitech-l you said that you want to use redirects >> to indicate alternate spellings. It would be a better idea to treat them >> like we do with translations that is, have a proper description of the >> word and its origin (what orthography or origin) and refer for all the >> rest to a selected word. [Pardon me butting in. I have just joined the list and this is my first posting.] Apropos of alternative spellings, I am exploring the idea of moving my 100,000+ entry Japanese-English dictionary(*) into a wiki-like environment. One aspect of Japanese is that most words have at least two ways of writing them, and many have more. These are not lemmae; they are valid orthographical variants. I have stuck very solidly to the position that no entry can be restricted to a single headword. Multiple headwords are an intrinsic part of the present (XML) structure, and users need, and expect, to be able to go directly to the entry using any of the written forms. If wiktionary were to end up importing this file (and there are many things to be considered first), I could not see it working if there were a separate entry for every orthographical variant. Since wiktionary seems to have no workable concept of multiple headwords, redirects *may* be a suitable path to take, especially if they could be generated automatically at upload time, or at the time of creating a new entry. Even that would be problematical, in that one of the accepted forms of a word is its representation in the (quasi-phonetical) hiragana script, and Japanese has a vast number of homophones. (For example, I have 19 entries with the pronunciation, and hence kana form, of koukou.[+]) My penny's worth. Jim Breen * See: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/j_jmdict.html http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/edict.html + See: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/jwb/wwwjdic?1MSJkoukou -- Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton School of Information Technology, Tel: +61 3 9905 9554 Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia Fax: +61 3 9905 5146 (Monash Provider No. 00008C) ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学

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Wikmania: reporters and translators - admins please read and write notes on your beer parlours.
by Sabine Cretella 29 Jul '05

29 Jul '05

First of all: sorry for crossposting to all lists, but I need to reach as many people as possible. There are two things I would like to talk about and maybe this mail is going to be quite long. At this stage I took over part of the translation's organisation (or all of it? we'll see ...) There are some problems involved when it comes to translations for wikimania - on one hand we will have people that know how to edit and that go simply there and edit an article on the other hand we will work with translators who don't know how to do this and therefore they receive the article and send it back to me - then their work needs to be copied and pasted into the wiki. Therefore I created a page where to collect the names of people who work for wikimania and a yahoogroup to assure that every article is only translated once. The translator's list can be find here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translators_that_are_willing_to_co-operate It is organised by language combinations. I also added myself, but really I suppose I won't have much time to translate since I will need the time for organisational tasks. The translator's list is on yahoo: wikimaniatrans(a)yahoogroups.com I am inserting all translators there since all articles that need translation are posted there. The first translator who answers to the list with "I am doing this translation EN-IT" (just to make an example) will translate that language combination of that particular article - so all other translators know that this work is being done. So if you are interested in co-operating for translations, please add yourself to the list and subscribe to the yahoo-group. If you won't do this yourself: just send me a mail indicating Language combinations Name e-mail Website (if any) As to the reporters: to be faster in our work it would be great if you sent me a note with the link as soon as your article is online and ready for translation. I know that this is not the normal "wiki-way" but we have to deal with people that are not used to wikis and we don't have the time to teach them how to work there. Please drop me a note so that I know you before (it would be great). As to admins: please post the message that we are on search for translators in your Beer Parlours and ask people who are interested to contact me by e-mail (either sabine_cretella(a)yahoo.it or s.cretella(a)wordsandmore.it) - I understand German, Italian, English, French, Spanish and write German, Italian, English - I approximatively understand some more languages, but it is not the case to guess what is written in this situation, so please bear with me and accept these limits :-) For now that's all - the more we are the better we will be and the less work anyone will do - if there's someone who would like to help with the copy/paste upload: please let me know. Ciao!!!! Sabine ***** Sabine Cretella Translations s.cretella(a)wordsandmore.it skype: sabinecretella ___________________________________ Yahoo! Mail: gratis 1GB per i messaggi e allegati da 10MB http://mail.yahoo.it

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nds is now lowercase ..
by Gerard Meijssen 24 Jul '05

24 Jul '05

Hoi, Thanks to Brion the nds wiktionary is now lowercase enabled. This means that all article names will indicate the proper spelling when a word is added. I have a 2775 long list of nds words with German translations that I am given permission to use thanks to Germaniennet. I am happy to upload it to the nds wiktionary. It would be great if you adopt the template system that is used by many of the other wiktionaries. So have a look at it and let me know what you think of it.. In your mail to the wikitech-l you said that you want to use redirects to indicate alternate spellings. It would be a better idea to treat them like we do with translations that is, have a proper description of the word and its origin (what orthography or origin) and refer for all the rest to a selected word. Thanks, GerardM

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Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions
by Gerard Meijssen 23 Jul '05

23 Jul '05

Hoi, I had an interesting conversation with Brion. We do not agree on everything. One of the things we do not agree on are redirects. In my opinion, Wiktionary should not have redirects. A word is either spelled correctly and it will have its lemma or it is not and there will not be a lemma with the incorrect spelling. In Brions opinion there are links to lemmas and as we need to ensure that these links remain ok, we need redirects to make this possible. In a Wikipedia context I am 100% with Brion. In a Wiktionary context it is a different matter. As only correctly spelled words should be in a Wiktionary, errors should be deleted. Some of our Wiktionaries for historical reasons are capitalising their articles. In essence this means that from a spelling point of view the name of the lemmas are irrelevant. However, many people assume that the name of the article indicates that a word is spelled correctly. To remedy this, more and more wiktionaries are moving away from first character capitalisation and make it possible to have correctly spelled words as a lemma. When a wiktionary has made this move away from first character capitalisation, the interwiki and interproject links within the Wikimedia projects need to be fixed. After this, the redirects can in my opinion be removed. I think this is appropriate because users expect that an application behaves in certain ways. When new content is added to a non-capitalised Wiktionary, the word foo will not have a redirect in Foo and consequently it behaves differently from the content predating the move to non-capitalisation. Also words like Kinder and kinder are not related at all. The redirect at Kinder will be replaced at some stage breaking the existing redirect and consequently not providing the continuance that Brion holds dear. For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design criteria. It can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage The Data design can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed. This means that all incorrect spelling will be amended or deleted. As Ultimate Wiktionary is a database, it does not cater for things like redirects. I urge you to have a look at both the design criteria and the design itself because this is the time when it is relatively easy to make changes. Once Erik starts coding the UW database, having finished Wikidata and the GEMET implementation, the moment has passed us by. Thanks, GerardM

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Re: ERD
by Gerard Meijssen 15 Jul '05

15 Jul '05

Rodolfo Raya wrote: >On 7/14/05, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >Hi, > > > >>I have started anew on an ERD for the UW. >> >> > >Have you considered designing an XCS template to use with TBX exports? > >You may want to take a look at the default template included in TBX >specs and remove the fields that you consider irrelevant. Once you >define the template, it would be easier to identify the requirements >of the application and write an UML or ERD diagram. > >Regards, >Rodolfo > Hoi, The first thing I need to do is to make sure that we can host the data in the database. To do that there are several requirements that I have to allow for; * The user interface must be in the language indicated by the user. * Ultimate Wiktionary is to use its own dog food or, if some terminology required in the UI is not there, it must be possible to add it within Ultimate Wiktionary * It must be possible to host all words of all languages in this database. * We need cooperation of many people to make it all possible so I need to acknowledge glossaries and thesauri that we are given to host within UW * Users must be able to select the languages that they want to see. The budget that we have to create UW is minimal. We will be happy if we can get it to work and host the data.within a limited amount of time.We have considered TBX. There are however TWO crucial things before we can consider exporting to TBX, the first is IMPORT, the second one is analysis of what the export should be for. If the Dutch content will be 222.000+ words to start of with and everyone starts hitting our servers because you can, it makes for some optimalisation. If the export is based on a need of only the changed content, it is different again. When the need is associated with the projected reference implementation, it makes sense to consider how we will ask translators to aid in the content of the UW. Sabine for instance already adds content to the Italian wiktionary based on her translations. When we ask it as part of the reference implementation for a translation glossary, we want to encourage translators to work on the content like Sabine does, finding the right way is crucial. When we start with UW, it may be important to have some Quality Assurance measures built in. This is also very much intrinsic to the database design and that is what is currently being worked on. Currently there are some 17 tables that make up the ERD, there is need for some more. Over the last year I have had many conversations about what should be in an Ultimate Wiktionary. Now I am trying to integrate it all. I have posted the design to the uw-creations(a)googlegroups.com and I have posted it at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ERD.jpg As you should understand it is a working document and if you have questions of suggestions do not hesitate to discuss them with me and with others. Thanks, GerardM

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ERD
by Gerard Meijssen 14 Jul '05

14 Jul '05

Hoi, I have started anew on an ERD for the UW. It still has few files, they will grow but it is already quite complicated. I have looked at the ERD from Ilse, and found it to be next to useless for a multilanguage dictionary. This is MY first shot at it, I am still in design mode and my next exercise will be to include pronunciations. That is more complicated that it sounds I am afraid because you also have trancriptions to consider and the fact that phonetic script is NOT standard; Americans do transcipe to IPA and SAMPA differently from the French or the Germans. One lesson I have learned, since the last time I looked at this in earnest I have learned a lot. This has complicated my perception and it should make for a data design that is better at solving the issues as I know them. I have looked at several designs and rejected a few, there are some designs that I want to revisit. I did send this mail to uw-creations, a google group that we set up for the implementation of a reference implementation for a Computer Aided Translation (CAT) tool. This design is as relevant to them as it is for the Wiktionary-l. Everyone can read the content of this list, only people who have been invited can post there. (drop me a line) As always, I am happy for your comments. In the spirit of Open Source I will publish often. Thanks, GerardM

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