Wiktionary-l April 2007

wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.org

15 participants
7 discussions

Running the bot
by GerardM 26 Apr '07

26 Apr '07

Hoi, I have come to a decision on how I will run the interwiki bot from now on. I will run the bot on al Wiktionaries and it will see all words on all Wiktionary projects. In order to fulfil the demand of the Polish Wiktionary, I will not update the Polish Wiktionary any more. All other Wiktionaries will see the new articles created on the Polish Wiktionary. Thanks, GerardM

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Wiktionary quality issues
by GerardM 25 Apr '07

25 Apr '07

On the Wiktionary <http://wiktionary.org/> project I run the interwiki bot. The process is simple; when an article exists in another language spelled exactly the same, I create an "interwiki" link. This allows you to see the information on another language Wiktionary. This process is an automated process, it works on all Wiktionaries and it is an unattended process. I have received a request from the Polish Wiktionary to stop adding interwiki links for the Russian and for the Vietnamese Wiktionary. The reason given is one of quality. On the Russian Wiktionary many of the articles are created by a bot and they do not provide good information. An example is dispersion, <http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/dispersion> there is nothing really in there. The Vietnamese Wiktionary is more problematic because a bot was used to generate declension and conjugation tables of Russian words and they got it wrong. The Russian Wiktionary has some 81.000 empty shells and refuse to remove it. The Vietnamese are not willing to remove there incorrect data. I have been asked to stop including the Russian Wiktionary and the Vietnamese Wiktionary when I run the interwiki process. To be honest, I run the bot as a service and I do not think it is the right thing to do. I think the Vietnamese are wrong not to correct the wrong data that they have. I am less sure about the Russian approach; in essence it is a stub. However, creating a Wiktionary in this way is like stamp collecting; you can look at it but there is not information about it. Given how the process works, I am not sure that I can exclude either the Russian or the Vietnamese Wiktionary. The way it works is that I run explicitly on all Wiktionaries. When I exclude Russian or Vietnamese, I will probably end up removing all references to these projects. They are the third and fourth Wiktionary is size. When I do not exclude the Russian and the Vietnamese Wiktionary, the bot may end up being blocked on the Polish Wiktionary. This will also kill off the interwiki process. >From my point of view, using bots to generate content in a Wiktionary only makes sense when there is at least a link to the word in the base language. When the initial creation of stubs is followed by the enrichment of these stubs it is acceptable. For having information that is completely wrong, there is no excuse. The question is, will there be a discussion about acceptable practices in Wiktionary. The question are: - Can the Polish demand what they do? - Is having a project that consists mainly of stubs acceptable? - Is having incorrect data acceptable? Thanks, GerardM PS I copied this from my blog.

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Please, add links to your village pumps...
by Milos Rancic 09 Apr '07

09 Apr '07

... at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikimedian_pubs Of course, if such thing already exists, let me know that.

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Wikimania 2007 - Call for Submissions
by Erik Moeller 08 Apr '07

08 Apr '07

I'm (re)sending this to lots of lists -- people, we need more submissions! Please be bold in sending us your papers -- we'd love to see you in Taiwan this year. :-) Please forward to other relevant lists as well! See http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_Participation/distribution for the ones we've already covered. Erik - - - - Wikimania is an annual global event devoted to Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia Foundation projects. It is a community event, which is also open to the public and to researchers. This year's conference will be held from August 3-5, 2007 in Taipei, Taiwan at Chien Tan Overseas Youth Activity Center. For more information, please visit the Wikimania site: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/ Send your submissions through: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submission We are accepting submissions for posters, presentations, workshops, and discussion groups. We are also accepting nominations for speakers and speaker panels, and suggestions for other activities. Please note the details below and be bold in your submissions! == Important dates == * 1 March – 30 April: Submission * 1 May – 31 May: Feedback and notification of acceptance * 3 – 5 Aug 2007 : Wikimania == Conference Themes == Submissions should address one or more of the following themes: * Wikimedia Communities – Interesting projects and particularities within the communities (we explicitly invite you to present your local Wikimedia project's community!); policy creation within individual projects; conflict resolution and community dynamics; reputation and identity; multilingualism, languages and cultures; social studies. * Free Content – Open access to information; ways to gather and distribute free knowledge, usage of the Wikimedia projects in education, journalism, research; ways to improve content quality and usability; copyright laws and other legal areas that interfere with Wikimedia projects. * Technical infrastructure – Issues related to MediaWiki development and extensions; Wikimedia hardware layout; new ideas for development (including usable case studies from other wikis or similar projects). Your topic must be related to Wikimedia projects and its communities or to the creation of free content in general. == Types of Submissions == We are seeking submissions for * presentations (10–30 minute talks with optional short or full papers) * posters (printed presentations or visual displays that can stand on their own) * workshops (30–120 minute session with more involvement of the audience) * panels (group of 2-5 speakers to discuss on a specific subject) * Birds-of-a-Feather (BoF) (45-60 minute informal meetup of group discussion on a particular topic) * artistic artifacts (plays, competitions, comedy, visualizations, or other representations of some aspect of the projects) == Guidelines == Wikimania is organized by volunteers, so please help us to minimize wasted effort by following these guidelines carefully before submitting and be sure not to forget anything that is mentioned here. All submissions must explicitly include the following: * an English title * a short English abstract of 50 to 100 words. The abstracts should be provided as plain text, and not as file attachments. This abstract will be used as public description of your submission in the conference program * a detailed description (or full paper) of at least one page (300 words or more). This description will not be published unless you want it, but used for reviewing your submission. Give an overview of the areas to be covered or taught. State clearly the relevance to the Wikimedia projects and whether submission concerns a specific wiki project. You may use any language, but we strongly suggest English or Chinese. Full descriptions may include a link to a full paper or slides in HTML or PDF, if available. * full name, email address, and a short bio of 1–3 sentences for each author. You may also add wiki usernames and nicknames. * the type of submission (presentation, poster, workshop, panel, BoF, artistic) * the language(s) you are going to talk in (or the language of your poster) Please tell us with your submission whether you will attend to Wikimania (a) surely, (b) probably, (c) only if your submission is accepted, or (d) only if we provide travel and/or accommodation. Additionally, please specify: * the target audience you are going to reach and what previous knowledge is needed * special requirements (such as equipment for a workshop or panel) if needed * images or sketches of the poster or artistic artifact if available * for panel submissions short biographies of each suggested panelist * whether the presentation is intended to be a specific length. * BoF proposals should describe the significance of and community interest in the topic, and name the proposed discussion leader(s). For poster sessions there are additional guidelines: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Poster_session Please note that all submissions must be dual licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License version 1.2 or later and the Creative Commons Attribution License. == Submissions == Once you are sure you have included all of the required information, please send your submission by the respective deadline through our submission system: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submission Please do not send submissions by email. If you need help for translating your work please visit our translation help page. Questions, but not submissions, may be directed to cfp(a)wikimedia.org. == Hacking Days == Before the main conference there will also be informal Hacking days for MediaWiki developers who are familiar with the software, If you are interested in joining it, please visit: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Planning/Hacking_Days_Extra_2007 == See also == * About the venue: http://www.cyh.org.tw/ * Brainstorming page for program ideas: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Program_Ideas * Editable list of attendees: http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Attendees * WikiSym 2007 (October 21-23, 2007, Montreal), an alternative wiki conference: http://www.wikisym.org/ws2007/

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Klingon Wiktionary closed
by Brion Vibber 05 Apr '07

05 Apr '07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Per the announcement I put in the sitenotice last month, I have locked the Klingon-language Wiktionary, http://tlh.wiktionary.org/ As far as I know there was never any deliberate intention to have such a site (it would have been automatically created alongside the Klingon Wikipedia), and it was forgotten when the Klingon Wikipedia was closed. As soon as I was notified of its existence I put up the notice that it would not stay, so anyone working on it would be aware. The only response I got to my notice was this very rude message, which was hidden away where I never saw it until today: http://tlh.wiktionary.org/wiki/lo%27wI%27_ja%27chuq:Brion_VIBBER It seems pretty clear to me that the site doesn't serve any legitimate purpose to Wikimedia's mission; while it may be _fun_ it would be better hosted somewhere else, perhaps whereever the Klingon Wikipedia ended up? If there's some legitimate reason to reopen it, let me know. We could hand the question off to the Language Committee if desired. - -- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGDe96wRnhpk1wk44RApOyAKCCfGg5T8QbmIplUpZt8rfixdza6gCcClGT iaxAkmqlLd+T6/tBUXoY4s8= =Fuk4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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unsubscribe
by Katia Gruppioni 04 Apr '07

04 Apr '07

unsubscribe katia gruppioni marketing e relazioni internazionali mail to:katia_gruppioni@siragroup.it tel +39 0516268411 fax +39 051743866 call m.p.:+39 3356820495 -----Messaggio originale----- Da: wiktionary-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wiktionary-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Per conto di wiktionary-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org Inviato: mercoledì 4 aprile 2007 16.59 A: wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Oggetto: Wiktionary-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 Send Wiktionary-l mailing list submissions to wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to wiktionary-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org You can reach the person managing the list at wiktionary-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wiktionary-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Dmcdevit) 2. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Oldak Quill) 3. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Muke Tever) 4. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Muke Tever) 5. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Yann Forget) 6. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Muke Tever) 7. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Yann Forget) 8. Re: Klingon Wiktionary closed (Dmcdevit) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:28:24 -0700 From: Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list" <wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <4612F128.4060003(a)cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Muke Tever wrote: > On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:20:29 -0600, Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> wrote: > >> Oldak Quill wrote: >> >>> I, for one, object to the closure of projects based on elitist >>> concerns as to the origin of the language. What matters is the place >>> of the language in the world now. This language is, crucially, >>> recognised as a language by the International Standardisation >>> Organisation >>> >> There is no sense of "recognition" in the ISO code designations. As they >> say for the 693-3 codes, "it is a goal for this part of ISO 639 to >> provide an identifier for every distinct human language that has been >> documented, whether living, extinct, or constructed, and whether its >> modality is spoken, written or signed." There are 7,589 currently. >> > > tlh is also in ISO 639-2 as well, whose scope is more limited, codes being > added to it "when it becomes apparent that a significant body of literature > in a particular language exists." > > The full criteria are here: > http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/criteria2.html > (in brief, "that there is a significant body of literature in the language > or describing the language".) > > >> So I repeat, your choices are either to have a dictionary define wordsusing words it does not define (Klingon words) or to define words (Klingonwords) that cannot be attested according to normal dictionary standards. >> > > First off, what kind of attestation are you seeking here? There are published > reference books on the language and several translations into Klingon have been made: > Gilgamesh and a couple of Shakespeare plays are in print; online of course there's > more, such as extensive selections from the Bible (linguist Nick Nicholas has > the full text of the book of Mark on his website, among other things)... This is > as much as if not more than many minority natural languages have. > *All* natural languages have a right to be included when they meet the requirements for starting a new language project, which is part of Wikimedia's mission to provide the sum of all human knowledge *to every single person*. That is a false comparison. So, you have no original literature whatsoever, and a hodgepodge of fan translations of famous works into this fictional alien language, and that ought to constitute enough use? Why is it that no one seems able to tell me how many fluent speakers there are? At least other languages have educational uses, including cross-lingual communication, ease of use or learning, simplification of existing languages, etc. > I agree with Oldak about "elitist concerns as to the origin of the language". > I apologize if my concern that the Wikimedia Foundation, the charitable organization we volunteer for, be used for significant, educational purposes, as it is intended, appears elitist. That does not fit my definition of elitism, however, and bandying about the term is just an ad hominem distraction. This is the most important point. There is a reason that the MuppetWiki (a fine project, expanding rapidly) belongs on a non-WMF site like Wikia. > If Klingon (or any other language) is to be rejected it should be on at least > moderately objective criteria, which would pertain to the language's present, > not its origin--the bar can be higher for a constructed language, but it should > at least be presented an opportunity to rise above its birth. > Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in. > It seems [from what I can tell now] that the Klingon Wikipedia was closed down not > because of any demerit in the language itself, but chiefly because it was not being > used (having 60 articles at time of closing). tlh.wiktionary, it seems, has at > least two currently-active users (its admins) and 2,311 content pages. That is not at all my understanding of how the Klingon Wikipedia closed. There was widespread community opposition. All wikis start small. Worse, I will note again that this wiki was an accidental creation without the Board's approval, and they have already voted to close the Klingon Wikipedia. Dominic ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 02:21:08 +0100 From: "Oldak Quill" <oldakquill(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list" <wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <54f6f2050704031821j76eb5967rae17e5a9c4a882ac(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 04/04/07, Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> wrote: > Muke Tever wrote: > > I agree with Oldak about "elitist concerns as to the origin of the language". > > > I apologize if my concern that the Wikimedia Foundation, the charitable > organization we volunteer for, be used for significant, educational > purposes, as it is intended, appears elitist. That does not fit my > definition of elitism, however, and bandying about the term is just an > ad hominem distraction. This is the most important point. There is a > reason that the MuppetWiki (a fine project, expanding rapidly) belongs > on a non-WMF site like Wikia. Huh? Since when does "education" preclude the Klingon language? How do you define "significant"? How is the suggestion of elitism a distriction? I consider it a problem for Wikimedia that should be solved. When elitism results in the closure of harmless projects that could potentially bring more people to Wikimedia (and maximise the use of our content), it is a problem for the Foundation. -- Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:45:57 -0600 From: "Muke Tever" <muke(a)frath.net> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list" <wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <op.tp8kivmc2okkek(a)maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> wrote: >> First off, what kind of attestation are you seeking here? There are published >> reference books on the language and several translations into Klingon have been made: >> Gilgamesh and a couple of Shakespeare plays are in print; online of course there's >> more, such as extensive selections from the Bible (linguist Nick Nicholas has >> the full text of the book of Mark on his website, among other things)... This is >> as much as if not more than many minority natural languages have. >> > *All* natural languages have a right to be included when they meet the > requirements for starting a new language project, which is part of > Wikimedia's mission to provide the sum of all human knowledge *to every > single person*. That is a false comparison. Ok, so you're drawing a distinction between natural languages and artificial languages. That's perfectly fine; I'd support a difference in the rules on that ground myself. But my response was not to that concern. > So, you have no original literature whatsoever, and a hodgepodge of fan > translations of famous works into this fictional alien language, and > that ought to constitute enough use? I don't have anything; it's not my language. I responded to your statement that the words "cannot be attested," with attestation; the concept of 'enough use' had not yet entered, and if you expect it to be met, you'll have to phrase it more quantitatively. > Why is it that no one seems able to tell me how many fluent speakers there are? "Counting second language speakers is extremely difficult and approximate at best and would run into the additional problem of deciding how well a person is supposed to speak the language in order to be counted." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_speaker_data > At least other languages have educational uses, including cross-lingualcommunication, ease of use or learning, simplification of existing languages, etc. All right, now you are proposing criteria for acceptable constructed language wikis. That's fine too, though they are not the currently accepted criteria. >> I agree with Oldak about "elitist concerns as to the origin of the language". > > I apologize if my concern that the Wikimedia Foundation, the charitable > organization we volunteer for, be used for significant, educational > purposes, as it is intended, appears elitist. I wasn't speaking about the Wikimedia Foundation; I'm speaking of your opinion of the language which seems largely to be based on its origin as the language of a fictional alien race on a popular American television show, as if this were somehow a less serious language origin than, say, having been cobbled together in the altogether serious belief that it would bring about world peace, like several of the more acceptable alternatives. > That does not fit my definition of elitism, however, and bandying about the termis just an ad hominem distraction. The point is to indicate your own argument seems to be rather _ad linguam_ (if I may so mangle the phrase) -- it seems to be against Klingon because it is Klingon, not because it meets any objective standard. >> If Klingon (or any other language) is to be rejected it should be on at least >> moderately objective criteria, which would pertain to the language's present, >> not its origin--the bar can be higher for a constructed language, but it should >> at least be presented an opportunity to rise above its birth. > > Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a > popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate > from its origins is absurd. I hope I didn't indicate I held such a notion. I intended to say its origins are irrelevant to its status as a language, or ought to be. > It only needs to be rejected for its present: which is as a linguistically > unimportant, functionally nonexistent, and educationally useless language towrite a dictionary in. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy indicates that the only additional criterion for a fictional language wiki as opposed to a natural language one is "a reasonable degree of recognition", not linguistic importance, functional existence, or educational usefulness. (It also links to the discussion saying tlh.wikipedia was closed due to inactivity; if there is a more correct discussion, it may be helpful to update the link appropriately.) *Muke! -- website: http://frath.net/ ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:51:50 -0600 From: "Muke Tever" <muke(a)frath.net> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list" <wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <op.tp8ksomz2okkek(a)maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 GerardM <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hoi, > When having only 60 articles is a criterion for deletion of a Wikipedia > project, there are many more projects in the danger zone. 50 of the current > 250 Wikipedias do not have this number of articles. This is as far as I am > concerned no valid reason. Of course, if it's a natural language. But in a constructed language I can see justifying a minimum amount of activity. *Muke! -- website: http://frath.net/ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:31:47 +0200 From: Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: <46136273.4040402(a)forget-me.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello, Dmcdevit wrote: (...) > Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a > popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate > from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its > present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally > nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in. I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all. > Dominic Best regards, Yann ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 04:35:59 -0600 From: "Muke Tever" <muke(a)frath.net> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list" <wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <op.tp8819j92okkek(a)maadim.hsd1.co.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> wrote: > Dmcdevit wrote: > (...) >> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a >> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate >> from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its >> present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally >> nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in. > > I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all. It is not an argument, it is rhetoric. And very weak, at that. It can be used with equal force by the other side, e.g. >> Our language is considered linguistically unimportant, functionally >> nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the more imperative >> that we produce a dictionary in it. Prejudice like that against a natural language (which is very often expressed in the world) would, I hope, never stand here against the opening of a wiki. The only remaining part of the agreed-with argument is that it is a constructed language, and we have not been deleting wikis merely because they belong to constructed languages. *Muke! -- website: http://frath.net/ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:47:48 +0200 From: Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list" <wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <46138254.3060809(a)forget-me.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, And claiming the Klingon should be supported by Wikimedia without giving any information about numbers of speakers, is not rethoric??? I think we don't have the same definition of this word. Regards, Yann Muke Tever wrote: > Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> wrote: >> Dmcdevit wrote: >> (...) >>> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a >>> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate >>> from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its >>> present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally >>> nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in. >> I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all. > > It is not an argument, it is rhetoric. And very weak, at that. It can be used > with equal force by the other side, e.g. > >> Our language is considered linguistically unimportant, functionally > >> nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the more imperative > >> that we produce a dictionary in it. > > Prejudice like that against a natural language (which is very often expressed in > the world) would, I hope, never stand here against the opening of a wiki. The only > remaining part of the agreed-with argument is that it is a constructed language, and > we have not been deleting wikis merely because they belong to constructed languages. > > *Muke! ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:58:49 -0700 From: Dmcdevit <dmcdevit(a)cox.net> Subject: Re: [Wiktionary-l] Klingon Wiktionary closed To: "The Wiktionary (http://www.wiktionary.org) mailing list" <wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <4613BD29.4060906(a)cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Muke Tever wrote: > Yann Forget <yann(a)forget-me.net> wrote: > >> Dmcdevit wrote: >> (...) >> >>> Your notion that Klingon, the language of a fictional alien race on a >>> popular American television show, has some kind of existence separate >>> from its origins is absurd. It only needs to be rejected for its >>> present: which is as a linguistically unimportant, functionally >>> nonexistent, and educationally useless language to write a dictionary in. >>> >> I agree with the closing of this Wiktionary, and this argument says it all. >> > > It is not an argument, it is rhetoric. And very weak, at that. It can be used > with equal force by the other side, e.g. > >> Our language is considered linguistically unimportant, functionally > >> nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the more imperative > >> that we produce a dictionary in it. > > Prejudice like that against a natural language (which is very often expressed in > the world) would, I hope, never stand here against the opening of a wiki. The only > remaining part of the agreed-with argument is that it is a constructed language, and > we have not been deleting wikis merely because they belong to constructed languages. > > *Muke! > You are under the misimpression that I don't like Klingon *because* it is a constructed language. Nowhere have I said that. I have given actual reasons, including its lack of speakers, lack of literature, lack of significance, lack of educational use. On the other hand, if your argument *is* "Our language is considered linguistically unimportant, functionally nonexistent, and educationally useless. It is thus all the more imperative that we produce a dictionary in it" that's not a problem. The problem would be using that argument to create an admittedly "educationally useless" dictionary as a WMF project rather than on an external site. Inclusion guidelines are not prejudice; if you are against any vetting of supposed languages at all, I think you are fighting a losing battle. Wiktionary is not for promotion of your pet project, so this is beginning to sound rather like the sort of argument I hear when I delete some kid's protologism on Wiktionary, of some high school band on Wikipedia ("The world doesn't know about it/us yet; that's why we need an article!"). In fact, it *is* important that our work support educational purposes, and it's not unreasonable to demand that. Dominic ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Wiktionary-l mailing list Wiktionary-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l End of Wiktionary-l Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 *******************************************

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Wikimedia's Open Source Toolset
by Erik Moeller 02 Apr '07

02 Apr '07

I've started the following page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Toolset to collect a list of open source tools & open formats that are commonly used to support Wikimedia projects. Mainly, this is for external tools, rather than those developed within our community, though I don't mind if it is expanded to cover both. The purpose of having this page is to better inform decision-making processes on all levels: * directing volunteers who want to help us to work on particularly useful open source projects * directing editors to tools that help them with their day-to-day work * possibly, even (when the Foundation is a bit more sustainable) considering awarding development grants to some of them, or at least helping them to pursue them by endorsing their grant proposals to other organizations * identifying key "missing pieces" that are not covered or not covered well by the existing toolset (this might be a separate list). I know many of you use specialized tools that are not well known. There are also sure to be glaring omissions in the current list. I would therefore appreciate all help to complete it. -- Peace & Love, Erik DISCLAIMER: This message does not represent an official position of the Wikimedia Foundation or its Board of Trustees. "An old, rigid civilization is reluctantly dying. Something new, open, free and exciting is waking up." -- Ming the Mechanic

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Wiktionary-l April 2007