I forward proposer letter: ============================ Hello, The question about Latgalian being a dialect or a language is still a topic for endless public and also academic discussions.
Researches made by linguistics professors (Breidaks, Leikuma, Stafecka, Toporov etc.) have shown that Latgalian and Latvian may be considered separate languages in terms of all structural levels of the languages (phonetics, morphology, vocabulary, syntax).
Consequently, this is a problem of Latvian majority being ready or not to accept use of Latgalian as a regional language. Some of the facts described below show that Latgalian has more features of a languages than those of a dialect.
Latgalian was taught as a separate language in schools of Latvia (until 1934, before authoritarian regime) and in Russia (until 1937, before mass exterminations of intelectuals of minority nations). Nowadays, Latgalian is taught at schools as an optional course, however, Association of Latgalian Teachers make regular efforts to obtain support from the government for teaching Latgalian.
Three Universities (University of Latvia, Daugavpils University and Rezekne Higher education istitutions) offer an optional course of Latgalian language and literature.
The Latgalian literary tradition has started in early 18 century. Total number of books published in Latgalian language reaches approx. 2000. About 150 Latgalian books were published in Latgalian since 1988, when the cultural revival movement started (i. e., after Soviet era)
Latgalian Radio ("Latgolys radeja") currently broadcasts in Latgalian language only.
There are 2 community portals in Latgalian only (www.latgola.lv, www.atzolys.lv) and a few more in both Latvian and Latgalian.
I would like to emphasize that a dialect in linguistics means a variety of language which exists, first of all, in its free spoken form, which is not standardized . Latgalians, however, use the written standard, which has a long history and is being revised and confirmed by Latgalian Language Commission on regular basis.
Furthermore, the code "bat-ltg" was assigned to test version of Latgalian about a year ago, and I think, there should be a consistency in decisions concerning the community of Latgalian Wkipedia. Thank you.
Regards, Armands (Stiernits from Latgalian Wikipedia)
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, In the past many things have been done that we should regret. We have on the one hand Brion who insists that we maintain the RFC to do with indicating content, on the other hand I advocate to use the ISO-639-3 standard and engage in the process to get adequate resolution on what is to be considered a language. Then there are people who consider that it does not make a difference and that we can do as we like.
Yes, we have several codes that are wrong. Codes that are contrary to the terms of use of the ISO-639 code. The fact that we have done these things does not sanction that we continue to do so.
When Samogitian gets the zog code, it means that we should be able to use that code. From an RFC point of view it seems that we are not allowed to do this. This is as foolhardy as insisting on using codes that are patently wrong and incompatible with what is done in the rest of the world.
ISO is working on codes where dialects are given an official code. When this happens the position of these codes will become even more untenable. It is to be prefered to accept the best codes that comply with current practices and work on amending the practices where needed.
The difference between a language and a dialect is often a problematic one. Issues are often highly politicized. It is absolutely wrong to "recognize" what some activists believe for reasons that have nothing to do with linguistics. Engaging in the process to get the recognition through ISO and Ethnologue is open to us, let us go that route.
Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Arns has a really good point. This is based on precedent.
While we do try to follow certain conventions where possible, we do have some inconsistencies with standards. But we're not ISOpedia. Whether we conform to standards or not is our own choice.
In the past, we have generally had codes in the form of fiu-vro, bat-smg, and map-bms.
This is despite the fact that Võro, Samogitian, and Banyumasan are considered by the Ethnologue (and many others) to be dialects of Estonian, Lithuanian, and Javanese respectively.
We are not perfect.
Mark
On 17/10/06, Zordsdavini iz Litvy zordsdavini@gmail.com wrote:
Latgalian is going in the same way as Samogitian. Soon Samogitian will
have
iso. It will be ZOG. For now it use bat-smg. The latgalian will have
iso,
too, I hope because Latgalian have more tradition than Samogitian.
When
Samogitian wiki was starting we decided to use bat-smg. I think the
best
code for now is bat-ltg. To write about dictionary differences can
proposer.
I'll tell him.
Arns
2006/10/17, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, There are two issues.
- What/ is/ the code for the moment
- Get recognition for Latgalian as a language.
People have considered languages like Min-Nan and Yue as a dialect
of
Chinese for a long time. They HAD to use codes like zh-min-nan
because
this was necessary to comply with the standards. At this moment we
have
7602 languages that are recognised in ISO-639-3. This is a big improvement over what was in ISO-639-2. The ISO-639-3 codes will
become
part of how languages are seen in the near future on the Internet. I
am
afraid that Latgalian is at this moment considered a dialect of
Latvian.
I am also sure that there are many other "languages/dialects" that
are
in a similar situation. Either because people are afronted because
what
it considers a language they consider a dialect or the other way
around.
There are also many people who consider something a dialect of for instance Italian while everybody knows that Italian was constructed after the unification of Italy and, that Italian is based on
Florentine.
The point I am making here there is a lot of confusion and there is
a
lot of posturing based on bad information. Having to base the code
for
Latgalian on Latvian is the best for the moment.
When you consider Latgalian a language, there are processes open to
us
to have this considered by organisations like Ethnologue and ISO. We have contacts that may help us achieve this. In order to get to that stage, it is necessary to jump through certain hoops. One of these
is
to
demonstrate that there is indeed this difference that warrants
Latgalian
to be considered a language. Aspects of this are also showing
literature
and current use of the language. One of the first resources would be
a
Swadesh list where both Latvian and Latgalian can be compared.
FYI I am from an area of the Netherlands; Westfriesland where they
used
to speak a language; Westfries. It has a literature; it has a
grammar
it
is not understood by people who speak Dutch. There are dialects of Westfries there are dictionaries of Westfries and there are revival societies that give cabaret performances in Westfries. At some stage
I
am sure that someone will ask for a Wikipedia in Westfries. I would
not
stop them. I KNOW that it takes relatively little effort to make the case for Westfries. In WiktionaryZ I would welcome dictionaries in Westfries or Latgalian... NB Westfries is not West Frisian .. which
imho
is a complete misnomer.
Thanks, GerardM
Zordsdavini iz Litvy wrote:
latgalian has long tradition of writing system. It was in
1918-1944
second
official language. Considering of dialect status is political. And
there
are
very active people which are working on latgalian language life.
It's
dialect like neopolitanian or venecian. We say it's the language.
Arns
2006/10/17, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, The code bat is a "collective code" for Baltic (other). Latgalian
however
is considered a dialect of Latvian and therefore it is not "other".
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lav http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=bat Thanks, GerardM
On 10/17/06, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10/17/06, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote: > >> Hoi, >> According to Ethnologue Latgalian is a dialect of Latvian. From
my
>> point
> of > >> view, there is not even a proposed code to be used for your
proposed
>> Wikipedia that would be acceptable. Acceptable would be
something
like
>> "lv-latg" or "lav-latg" .. >> > There's a test wiki at
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Test-wp/ltg
> The code bat-ltv has been suggested. > > Angela
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