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From: wikipedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org Reply-To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 45, Issue 21 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:01:21 +0000
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Today's Topics:
- Re: New Wikipedia in " Romanesco " (David Gerard)
- Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... (David Goodman)
- Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... (Ronald Chmara)
- Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... (Frederick Noronha)
- Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... (Till Westermayer)
- Re: New Wikipedia in " Romanesco " (Berto 'd Sera)
- Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... (Ronald Chmara)
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:06:57 +0100 From: "David Gerard" dgerard@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia in " Romanesco " To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: fbad4e140704251506v7a220c65o8e1f80771f3a32fb@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 25/04/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Read the policy.
And one day you will learn that when people question the policy, answering "Read the policy" only makes them angrier.
- d.
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:07:14 -0400 From: "David Goodman" dgoodmanny@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 480eb3150704251707n128194ffm7ac0469bf8523d8c@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
One Way to help:
One good way that groups (and individuals) in the third world (and anywhere else) can help wikipedia retain and add to the articles on their work is to state explicitly on their web sites that the pages are licensed GFDL (or just public domain). At least the text, and if possible the images. Very often this is the main source for an article, and article are often deleted for contain too much copied text. Many pages and especially images in Europe and elsewhere are licensed for nonprofit use only, and this does not meet the requirements of en WP.
There is of course the mechanism to request permission, but it is usual for organizations and webmasters not to react fast enough.
Many of the eds. at WP can & will quickly take such information and adapt and reduce it to a good article--it takes much longer to rewrite from scratch. I personally try to rewrite one such article a week, but if I could use blocks of web text and photos when appropriate I could do two or three.
On 4/25/07, Frederick Noronha fred@bytesforall.org wrote:
Dear all,
...
The speedy deletions of pages of organisations whose work is widely noticed and is certainly relevant to the Third World (or the so-called "developing world") is unfair.
...
Special care needs to be taken about groups working in non-English languages and those on the so-called "periphery" (i.e. not in the "big cities that matter" or the bigger nations that have so many of their denizens active in cyberspace). Many such groups might not be visible enough in cyberspace, but that hardly means their work is not relevant!
...
Frederick "FN" Noronha Goa, India.
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S. DGG
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:22:56 -0700 From: Ronald Chmara ron@Opus1.COM Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 503A8207-E736-49C9-807E-B728E05F2D76@opus1.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Till Westermayer wrote:
Hi, I have removed the proposed-for-deletion tag -- I guess it is a borderline case
Borderline? Hm... It's WP:COI, the only published "sources" are not only self generated (WP:SPS), they're also blogs loaded with viagra SPAM and forum sites... this is the very reason *why* we have so many guidelines on en, lest folks think that they can just throw up some content and therefore deserve their own wikipedia entry. AfD'ing this and any siblings.
Frederick Noronha schrieb am 25.04.2007 21:44:
Dear all, It appears that my persistent questioning of the decisions to delete pages related to some networks doing significant work, but which might not be sufficiently visible in cyberspace (or the English-dominated sections of it) seems to have led someone to decide to delete a page referring to me at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Noronha ! The grounds given are "borderline notability". Not that this matters.... It's amusing to see oneself being shifted from being a "notable Wikipedian" to "borderline notability" over a short period of time. See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Frederick_Noronha&diff=124590095&oldid=23812169
Notable wikipedian does not mean notable to the world. http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BIO#Articles_on_Wikipedians
I would still maintain that those deleting pages need to act with responsibility. Besides, the success of Wikipedia (as the 11th most-visited site in the world, according to alexa.com) should not lead to arrogance or unhelpfulness that discourages those attempting to get heard in cyberspace
Write a blog? WIkipedia is not a place to *establish* notability, it's a place to document things once notability is established. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#SOAP
(As one editor once told me, good naturedly, "If I want to give you a reason to block your article, I could give you any one of 31 good reasons for it." Yeah, reasons are easy to come by, once someone's mind is made up.)
Experienced editors may already be quite familiar with the criteria. So far, I've counted: VAIN/COI, CORP/ORG, SPS, V. It might or might not be SNOW, I'll leave that to others to decide. :)
- ..The speedy deletions of pages of organisations
whose work is widely noticed and is certainly relevant to the Third World (or the so-called "developing world") is unfair.
If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass WP:V
- There should be good reason for deletion of any page (this should
not be taken to mean that I'm making even an indirect case for my page.
AfD requires reasons, and consensus.
- Many such groups might not be visible
enough in cyberspace, but that hardly means their work is not relevant!
...If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass WP:V... Same answer to all your other questions. You are about to see how the process works. :)
-Bop
Message: 4 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:30:53 +0530 From: "Frederick Noronha" fred@bytesforall.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 8ea78e010704252300k45e96c3fqf6b4cf747263d309@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi all: Please don't discuss me or the page referring to me on Wikipedia. I have no delusions of grandeur, didn't initiate the page myself (just felt the need to correct the info which was incorrect on it, after waiting awhile and seeing nothing change!), and don't claim to be of any level of notability.
Instead, may I request that the page be deleted, so that this discussion takes on less of a personal I'm-protectiing-my-interest kind of tone.
On 26/04/07, Ronald Chmara ron@opus1.com wrote:
On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Till Westermayer wrote:
Hi, I have removed the proposed-for-deletion tag -- I guess it is a borderline case
Borderline? Hm... It's WP:COI, the only published "sources" are not only self generated (WP:SPS), they're also blogs loaded with viagra SPAM and forum sites... this is the very reason *why* we have so many guidelines on en, lest folks think that they can just throw up some content and therefore deserve their own wikipedia entry. AfD'ing this and any siblings.
What I am really concerned about is the manner in which entries -- which really deserve to be included on the Wikipedia (even if needing a rewrite and better sourcing) -- get tagged for speedy deletion. And I'm concerned about the decisions being taken obviously by people who (sorry to be blunt) lack familiarity of the field and probably see it as Latin and Greek, if not Sanskrit and Khmer! My interests lie in the field of ICT-for-D (information and communication technology for development) and the alternative media:
In particular, I refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios [Even links to it deleted. Reasons given: only 200+ members; not adequately sourced; non notability; etc, etc]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishab_A._Ghosh He's one of the most prominent persons in the ICT-for-D debate of Indian origin (and also known for his contribution at studying European issues). He was the guy who is credited with having first used the term FLOSS (Free/Libre and Open Source Software), and has undertaken prominent studies at the European level. Recently, he also edited a book 'Code: Collaborative Ownership and the Digital Commons' Rishab Aiyer Ghosh-ed MIT-published (ISBN 0-262-07260-2). So is he non-notable for Wikipedia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vikalp Vikalp, a serious movement against film-censorship in India, linking a few hundred film-makers, almost gets deleted. Again: "non-notability"!
Didn't have the time or energy to save another deserving case! http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natural_History_of_South_Asia_mail...
The founder of the most influential cyber not-for-profit operation from Goa, a former Portuguese colony on the west coast of India, is a similar victim. Non-notability! And he started what grew into Goa's most influential mailing-list (current readership 8-10,000+ daily) when he was a 17-year-old! http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Carneiro&action=edit
Groups in Latin America doing interesting work in the field of ICT4D get questioned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITeM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESLARED Fortunately, just salvaged on time after similar protests! But I can't spend my life just in verbal skirmishes with certainly don't win friends (and sometimes, don't even influence people!)
A friend of mine, who's active in global campaigns on ICT4D, couldn't believe that Ungana Afrika could be threatened by a 'non-notability' tag. But when will our Western friends recognise that the work one does isn't always reflected in cyberspace... in large parts of the globe, there's a total disjunct between the two. And that's what shorthand like the 'digital divide' is all about in the first place! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungana-Afrika
Another page deleted. Who cares about Free Software and Open Source in the world's most populous planet (even if we have a network of 130+ groups in India alone)? LUGs, FSUGs, GLUGs in India and Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LUGs%2C_FSUGs%2C_GLUGs_in_India_an...
And another one bites the dust: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gobala_Krishnan&action=edit
And finally, what triggered it all off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios
Okay guys, I rest my case. --FN
If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass WP:V
PS: Are you so sure? Most of the cultures of this planet are still not even documented, let alone digitised. And, in a Western-defined world, what you're saying is if you aren't digitised, you don't exist! Well... some fundamental differences in perception here. -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help! http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
Message: 5 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:20:45 +0200 From: Till Westermayer till@tillwe.de Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 463044BD.1050800@tillwe.de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Two or three short remarks:
Ronald Chmara schrieb am 26.04.2007 07:22:
On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Till Westermayer wrote:
Hi, I have removed the proposed-for-deletion tag -- I guess it is a borderline case
Borderline? Hm... It's WP:COI, the only published "sources" are not only self generated (WP:SPS), they're also blogs loaded with viagra SPAM and forum sites... this is the very reason *why* we have so many guidelines on en, lest folks think that they can just throw up some content and therefore deserve their own wikipedia entry. AfD'ing this and any siblings.
About "throwing up content" -- I guess this overestimates Wikipedias notability: most often there is some content, and the Wikipedia entry follows later. That people do it the other way round (or produce content only to get an Wikipedia entry) is highly improbable and definitly not the case with FN.
(As one editor once told me, good naturedly, "If I want to give you a reason to block your article, I could give you any one of 31 good reasons for it." Yeah, reasons are easy to come by, once someone's mind is made up.)
Experienced editors may already be quite familiar with the criteria. So far, I've counted: VAIN/COI, CORP/ORG, SPS, V. It might or might not be SNOW, I'll leave that to others to decide. :)
Argh. "Real life" got me a year ago or so, which lead to a drastical lowering of my Wikipedia-activity. In that short time, somehow lots of acronyms creep out somewhere -- most of them I don't recognize.
- There should be good reason for deletion of any page (this should
not be taken to mean that I'm making even an indirect case for my page.
AfD requires reasons, and consensus.
That's the reason why I deleted the notice (and thus enabled that someone -- you -- brings it to AfD). I don't think the AfD-process works well in all cases, but we will see. And at least I don't think I can judge if an Indian FOSS journalist is notable or not -- my intuition is a sort of notability (not because FN is active here, but I think the structual bias he describes is there).
--
till we *) ~ Till Westermayer ~ Hirschstrasse 5 ~ 79100 Freiburg 0761 55697152 ~ till@tillwe.de ~ http://www.westermayer.de/till/
Message: 6 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:26:33 +0300 From: "Berto 'd Sera" albertoserra@ukr.net Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia in " Romanesco " To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 002001c787cb$d59d38b0$0201a8c0@alles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
LOL which never kept any of the software vendors to answer me RTFM (read the f**ng manual) any time I started to venture in discussion before doing it :)
Berto 'd Sera Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri) http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of David Gerard Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:07 AM To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia in " Romanesco "
On 25/04/07, GerardM gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Read the policy.
And one day you will learn that when people question the policy, answering "Read the policy" only makes them angrier.
- d.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Message: 7 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:01:13 -0700 From: Ronald Chmara ron@Opus1.COM Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions... To: wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Message-ID: 85B41CA5-D4A1-40BE-8557-CCCA60DD8905@opus1.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Apr 25, 2007, at 11:00 PM, Frederick Noronha wrote:
Hi all: Please don't discuss me or the page referring to me on Wikipedia. I have no delusions of grandeur, didn't initiate the page myself (just felt the need to correct the info which was incorrect on it, after waiting awhile and seeing nothing change!), and don't claim to be of any level of notability.
When AfD'ing it, and notifying editors, I ran into your User:Talk page... looks like a cattle {{prod}} zapped it. Ow.
Instead, may I request that the page be deleted...
You can do just that on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/ Frederick_Noronha
... so that this discussion takes on less of a personal I'm-protectiing-my-interest kind of tone.
Okay. :)
What I am really concerned about is the manner in which entries -- which really deserve to be included on the Wikipedia (even if needing a rewrite and better sourcing) -- get tagged for speedy deletion.
I've had a few of those, some admins are pretty quick with the triggers, but our tiered deletion process is designed to sort out the possible problems, to a certain extent...
In particular, I refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios [Even links to it deleted. Reasons given: only 200+ members; not adequately sourced; non notability; etc, etc]
Those are standard reasons, with the core problem being sourcing, indicating a lack of notability and verifiability. Verifiability is the primary tool we have to keep people from inventing fictitious entities, or listing their chess club (that has 50 online members, and nothing other than their 100 blogs claiming various things), or an individual writing "THE TRUTH ABOUT MY UFO ABDUCTION" and then posting it to hundreds (or thousands) of websites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishab_A._Ghosh So is he non-notable for Wikipedia?
73K ghits, member of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Open_Source_Initiative (Passes WP:ORG), but it's a stub that needs more assertions of notability on why he would be, oh..... considered important, as an individual?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vikalp http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Natural_History_of_South_Asia_mailing_list&action=edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Carneiro&action=edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITeM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESLARED http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LUGs%2C_FSUGs% 2C_GLUGs_in_India_and_Asia&action=edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gobala_Krishnan&action=edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios
Some of the recurring themes I'm seeing so far, actually, viewed from *my* perspective, are articles about topics (and with text inside the articles about topics) that (to me) are completely *unimportant* in terms of notability.
Managing/having a mailing list is not notable, managing a website is not notable, managing a journal is not notable, nor is being a journalist, nor being a frequent F/OSS contributor, nor starting a regional, national, or international group, to *me*, and let me emphasize the next point quite heavily: "Because all of these things, right now, are done by almost every bored teenager or adult in *highly developed countries* with the slightest of inclinations to do so."
And this, I think, might be where some bias is kicking in.
Some examples: In the developing world, running your own nonprofit ISP might be a major thing, in the United States, I can count at least five personal friends who did so *as a way of passing time*. Sure, taking time away from making a living to work on F/OSS project is very significant, and notable, when one is having to cut down on their food budget to do so, but in the US, it can be "something to do" besides sitting on the couch and watching TV.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BIAS
Okay guys, I rest my case. --FN
If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass WP:V
PS: Are you so sure? Most of the cultures of this planet are still not even documented, let alone digitised.
My older brother is a geographic anthropologist. I know that there's a major, ongoing, effort to take the information from cultures that lack written documentation and capture it. I also do know that it is a race against time. Responding directly to your point, though, if "widely" means 600 people of the culture of a hill tribe in some non- developed country, wikipedia likely will not have it, and nor will the rest of the world, unless it is published in a reliable source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RS) first.
And, in a Western-defined world, what you're saying is if you aren't digitised, you don't exist! Well... some fundamental differences in perception here.
No, I'm saying that unless the story is told to the others, it cannot be heard by the others. Digitizing makes it easier for things like testing ghits, be we also have articles that one *must* find paper copies of some prior text in order to verify the data.
:)
-Bop
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