On 28 Dec 2004, at 04:12, Mark Williamson wrote:
Without commenting on my side on the issue, I think I should note that paganism is a religion as well, and thus symbols of paganism are religious symbols.
Yes and no.
The 1913 Webster defines "pagan" as follows:
Pagan \Pa"gan, a. [L. paganus of or pertaining to the country, pagan. See Pagan, n.] Of or pertaining to pagans; relating to the worship or the worshipers of false goods; heathen; idolatrous, as, pagan tribes or superstitions. [1913 Webster]
According to Princeton University's WordNet (2.0) however, the definition goes:
pagan adj : not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam [syn: heathen, heathenish, ethnic] n : a person who does not acknowledge your God [syn: heathen, gentile, infidel]
So according to Webster's definition, a pagan festival (such as Yuletide) would indeed have been a religious one.
If you however follow the more contemporary WordNet, the word "pagan" does ''not'' necessarily say anything about whether or not a pagan festival and/or person is religious. It only says that the pagan does NOT acknowledge ''your'' God (ie./and/or the God of Judaism, Christianity or whatever).
I ''personally'' find that the Christmas of our present is a mostly secular holiday. (I'm going by how the majority of people in the world currently celebrate it.) Interpretations on the secular or religious status of Yuletide may differ. But then I didn't claim Yuletide to have been 100% secular. I wrote:
If (and only if) you consider Yuletide to have been a religious holiday, it was a NON-Christian religious holiday. But AFAIK Yuletide was a seasonal festival in the first instance -- only possibly with associated (non-Christian) religious connotations in the second instance.
To sum up: - One can argue about the religiousness of Yuletide. - One can argue about whether or not Christmas is a religious holiday today. (I think it's pretty secular, but that's only me.) - What's certain though is that Christmas was extensively celebrated as a Christian religious holiday for several centuries in between time. - It's also certain that Yuletide, the original Christmas, was not actually a Christian holiday.
-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com