Hi again!
(Universal login: we at Commons await it more than anyone else, possibly. ;)) As for English login, not quite. We have managed to internationalise the login as much as possible: see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Userlogin .
Yes, I've used it myself. The main problem is that most users who are afraid of english will never get to see, because they will simply not click on the *login* link. Anyway, if we can setup a proper instruction page on local bases (that is, on pms) we can bridge this. The same would apply to interliki links. If one can mantain a usable UI on *any* edition he will not fear trying even the most exotic language... and this really is a quick way to locate additional pics to use in a given context.
) that it is now possible to have "Optional language selector for user login/registration forms". So I certainly hope Commons will be the first place to implement that.
I see it on all editions (more precisely: IT, EN, META, COMMONS) even now... so probably we talk about different selectors. My common:user works in pms lang, so do my it:user, en:user, meta:user, etc. What worries me is that a user needs to undergo a first page in a foreign language, in order to do this. If we could just send the user language as a link parameter we could probably solve the problem...
- there is no way for a local edition to use commons as an "included"
service (that is, one page as another, inside the edition).
I mean having your upload page instead of mine. Which means all the links in the page drive the user back into pms, while only upload functions and image galleries relate to your server from everywhere in pms. Having exported fake pages is okay, too. The thing I do not wnat to happen is an unexperienced user to get lost somewhere beween two servers. What I want is having commons "seamiglessly" integrated in local editions. People should not even know that they are changing servers, unles they are interested in the tech details and go reading the docs. Most users do not give a damn about it, all they want is their pic to be uploaded for them to use it in an article, not a conference on distributed systems management.
- file categorisation is 100% :en. (let alone file description)
Yes, this is true. Technical limitation until category RDRs are properly implemented.
Yes... I just tried to create a Category:{{Foo}} but there is no way to include a template in the title. It's a pity, because it's actually all it would take to get rid of the problem...
File descriptions are NOT required to be in English at all.
Yes, but I really wonder what can a japanese user get from a pms file description.
- file descriptions should have a sort of "fallback language", so that
once
Not sure what you mean by this. We encourage people to translate the descriptions on image pages.
I mean something like there is on Betawiki for translators to manage UI messages. You get the original version, and you can add your own in your language. For commons I'd also have a box for a third language. This way bilingual speakers may be able to work and place their description(s) in the proper lang-code(s), for it to be shown to a native speaker when it comes the time. This way you always get the original description, an additional :en version (if present), and your version (again, if present). Most of the users' digital pics describing places that have a related wiki edition are not going to be english. We can really collect a lot of views from all over the planet, if we can manage to make it accessible to users. But we also must think of how to make this usable...
There is no way to provide that many translators for minor languages, but then again... most local editions will have their main interest focused on local places and features, and they will produce the pics for themselves. Having categories translated will do the rest.
(Check-Usage is a tool that tells you where a Commons image is being used in all of Wikimedia. Like global "what links here".)
Yes, check usage is handy... another very good point for using commons.
- commons interface is quite out of wiki standards, and the
localisations
distributed by Betawiki do not seem to cover the whole UI, part of which remains in english anyway.
Hm, I am not sure about the technical points with Languages.php and all that. We have changed our navigation menu which most language files can't cope with, I know...
The answer could be having an extension file (smt like CommonsPms.php) managed by Betawiki. Most translators go there anyway, all the proper check-stuff is in place, so it could simply become a part of the distribution set. It would also help in getting new languages immediately in touch with commons. If you are "born using commons", then you do not need to consider it a problem. But as things are now it often simply becomes just "one more pain in the a**". And it eventually falls down to the bottom of admins' priority list. Which is exactly what happened with us @ pms.
I will just say we really encourage translators and are very responsive to updating translations. I personally promise that if you put translations on my talk page, I will update them within 24 hours of reading my talk page.
It's okay, Next week I'll start the translation. Even if we cannot have perfection right tomorrow, there is no reason not to get the whole thing ready in advance.
If you are interested, and maybe you are since your English is great, we can work together and over the next week update the language(s) you speak so they're all up to date. I agree that having the interface translated is important. (and policy pages, and warnings :) but most important of all is to have admins who can act as a bridge.)
LOL yes... The worst problem with wikipedia is the total absence of a clear way to understand how to do what and what is to be used for what. In the end it always becomes a pure matter of personal relations...
Using Commons means less work, but it certainly doesn't mean NO work. It is necessary that some admins from that Wikipedia/language take on extra responsibility and become Commons admins.
Hmmm... well... I guess I have a candidate for this :) Not me, if I want to remain alive :))) But I'll get you a competent pms speaker. Promised. :)
So some people do have to step up, because throwing your users in the deep end with no Commons contact will not work at all.
That was my worry, exactly.
We have a page
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Help_page_maintenance
which has a rough heirarchy of which pages should be translated first.
I looked up Piedmontese since I freely admit my ignorance of it. I see it is spoken in Italy. I was wondering what kind of attitude Piedmontese speakers have towards Italian speakers?
In a 3 million people user base you'll find a zillion different attitudes, depending on political opinions, soccer results, the weather, the attitude towards pms that a given ita speaker has... the relational result is totally unpredictable, as it ranges in scope from flame wars to pure love. I manage this stuff each every day @ pms, but I tell you, I'd be better off in predicting what's going to be the weather in Iceland during 2010 :) It cannot really be used as a decision criteria.
Is it true that most Piedmontese users can also read/understand Italian?
80% of them yes. A remaining 19% lives in Argentina since ages already and would be better off with ES. Us, that is the 1% high tech expat community, will probably be better off with EN, but one must consider that (as it is also the case for SCN and many other european minority languages) this particular 1% often counts as a full 70%, when it comes to counting a wiki's user base. At least at the beginning of the project.
ie....are Italian help files and messages sufficient for Piedmontese
speakers? No. In every day life it almost always gets substituted by ITA in Piedmont, and if we cannot keep an homogenous linguistic environment for our users we really risk turning all our efforts to failure. We need people to have a place for them to use the language for all kind of needs, if we want them to develop that proficiency that is necessary to write a good pms wiki. It's a pity, because it actually means that I get an additional load of translations work on my "to-do" list, but unfortunately that's the way it is...
from an Italian one? Please don't take offence if the answer is "100% essential". There's only one way to find out these things....
No offence at all :) We deal with marketing and chances for a wiki to be succesful. As far as languages are concerned I am totally result-oriented, politics and emotions mean absolutely nothing to me. You give me data, I give you data, and we both use them to find a solution that will generate more contributions and a wider user base for all. That's it. :)
Mmmm... I can't seem to guess your nick on common... you can leave me mail on http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussioni_utente:B%C3%A8rto_%27d_S%C3%A8ra so we can define a practical action plan for the merger... :) We got some 80 pics so far, If we manage to transfer them now it will be easier than making it once they already grew up to 800.
Bèrto