Hi Mark,
Your e-mails are VERY LONG!! I can't read all of it since most of it is BLABLABLA... I'll reply to only a few points which you stated:
You might as well say "I don't know what to say to most of the things you said. They're good arguments, and I have no logical rebuttal. But, I will make a snide remark in an attempt to dodge them, and only argue against the few points which I feel I have a good case for."
First of all the Low Saxon page is translated, I haven't had the chance to actually read everything word for word... I don't care in what group Grunnings or Stellingwarvs and Sleeswyks falls... you are correct though that Oost-Vrys (Ostfräisk, or something like that) is understandable to us, the spelling used is a bit complicated but the reason why we can understand it is because it is closely related to Westlauwers-Vrys. Since Oost-Vrys isn't used on nds.wiki it's not relevant, FYI, I read somewhere someone wanted to start a Ostfräisk Wiki, but that's a completely different thing, not related to this at all. I don't even believe the information is correct, but you're welcome to check it if you want!!
Oostfreesk generally refers to the Low Saxon dialect spoken in Ostfriesland, rather than the independent language spoken only in a tiny village in the Saterland.
You say you don't care what group they fall in... you may not, but it is very relevant here.
Again: de noordelike groep (Sleeswyk-Holstein, Nedersaksen, Grunningen, Drenthe, Stellingwarven, and Overyssel.) de suudwestelike groep (Westfaolen, Twente, Sallaand, Gelderland).
In the Northern group, there is a mix of German and Dutch varieties of Low Saxon. In the Southwest group, there are three Dutch varieties and one German variety (Westphaelsch).
So, rather than dividing by country, it makes more sense to have one Wikipedia for the "Noordelike groep", including Sleswigsch, Grunnegers, Drèents, Stellingwarfs, and Overyssels, and another one for the "Suudwestelike groep", including Westphaelsch, Tweants, Sallands, and Veluws.
So, this is clear evidence -- VERY clear evidence -- that you are placing an arbitrary dividing line.
Also, I wonder do you speak East or North Veluws? Acc'd to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Low_Saxon_language&oldid=52022... , East Veluws is a Dutch/Low Saxon mixed language, perhaps a Dutch version of Missingsch.
As you mentioned the whole of the South group is in the NL, the only Dutch dialect in the North group is Grunnings, I'm not Grunnings so I can't tell you if they understand DLS but I and most others don't (OKAY THAT'S CLEAR - I HOPE?) In the Netherlands we understand Grunnings (and for me as far as I've read Ostfräisk, I understand it reasonably well) But if you know any Grunningers ask them if they understand the nds.wiki some will but most won't, anyone is welcome on the nds-nl.wiki when it's created but I'm sure that when it's created they'll prefer that to nds.wiki. (Looking up information should be easy not very difficult, then what's the point it!) the converter doesn't help @all for me it could as well be a currency converter, but I don't care, it doesn't help...
Again, you are trying to force a situation. If Grunnegers speakers can understand it, then it is an arbitrary national division. You put the dividing line at the border, when it doesn't make sense, especially when you say "...I can't tell you if they understand DLS..."
Point B: I don't care if they all have a different way of writing, if you want to make a wiki workable then you have to have a common writing system (especially if the way of pronouncing in most dialects are the same, only the writing style differs - as seen on nds.wiki -)
You don't care? But maybe they do. You are a speaker only of Veluws, you cannot speak for all other Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands. They might want separate Wikipedias, or they might not. But then, you wouldn't know that any better than I would, because neither of us is a native speaker of, say, Grunnegers or Dreents.
Point C: No one cares if it's patentplatt, if they have a problem with it they will change it!
Noone cares if it's patentplatt? You obviously didn't read Point C -- Jonny Meinbohm and Ron Hahn __DO__ care. Ron tried to change it, but Heiko was as always very cold towards him and took a very uninviting stance, as usual, rather than welcoming in and being thankful for a native speaker as it should be.
They may use the term LANGUAGE, but it's officially not a language but a DIALECT of Nedersaksisch!! (No arguing about that, that's a fact!.. in fact most things are a fact so don't know why you're arguing)
Yes, but, then, "officially" Taiwan is part of China, yet it doesn't generally follow laws made by the PRC government; Serbian and Croatian are "officially" separate languages but they are at best dialects and at worst sociolects; Cantonese and Mandarin are "officially" one language, but most linguists will tell you they aren't; Somalia is "officially" unified under a single government, but this is only at an international level and the real situation is one part order two parts chaos, with a number of self-declared independent states and powerful warlords fighting for influence.
French is the only "official" language of France, but that doesn't mean nobody there speaks any other languages.
What is official, and what is reality, are often different.
I told you I'm BILINGUAL, that means I'm fluent in aswell DUTCH as VELUWS (NEDERSAKSISCH) but because Dutch is the prominent language and it's seen as most "polite" language, you hear more Dutch ...explained that to you in the last e-mail so not doing that again! (One has to explain thing 100 times to you - that's why Heiko doesn't want to continue this conversation because we're not getting anywhere with you, you don't even speak LS so how could you judge the language?? Please for the next time you come tell your stories here, have some facts instead of "Mark believes that...")
Please, realise there is a difference between being fluent in a language, and it being your mother tongue. I can study a language for 10 years at the age of 45 and become "fluent", but it won't make it my native language. I can have a native language which I am very poor at speaking now, just because it is my native language does not mean I am fluent.
You still are using the two terms interchangably. Are you native AND fluent? Or are you just fluent? "native" means it is the language of your cradle, spoken by one or both of your parents or other people who raised you. "fluent" means you are very capable in it, and can read books and carry on conversations and write letters. Most (but not all!) native speakers are also fluent, but by far not all fluent speakers are native.
TIP: For you next e-mail make it SHORT and don't talk BLABLABLA but with actual content, to which we can reply!
What exactly are you talking about here? I never once said "BLABLABLA"... you put those words in my mouth.
So, to sum up, the main points which you still have not responded to (you said to some of them even that you "didn't care") are...
1) The groupings of Low Saxon dialects/languages/varieties/speeches indicates that the dividing line is more properly drawn between North and South, not East (Germany) and West (Netherlands).
In case you still don't seem to get it, I've made an illustration: http://fixedsys.org/~node_ue/o%27ohadag/index.PNG
The red is Northern, and the purple is Southwestern. As you can see, each extends into Germany. The long dark blue line is the division YOU would have us make between "German Low Saxon" and "Dutch Low Saxon".
I've also labelled other languages of the Netherlands, I think it makes it easier to relate with the map.
2) It's quite self-serving of you to say, "Well, they're officially one language" just because you want them to have a single Wikipedia. I can't find very many pages that say "dutch low saxon": http://www.google.com/search?q=%22dutch+low+saxon%22 finds 275 pages; out of the first 10, 3 are from your messages to this list, and most of the other ones have them as consecutive members of a list, like: "Dutch, Low Saxon" (with Frisian or German usually coming after), or in the phrase "Dutch/Low Saxon mixture" to refer to East Veluws.
"netherlands low saxon" only finds 10 results, only one of which seems to be referring to it as a variant (others are in phrases like "In the Netherlands, Low Saxon is...".
If we subtract all the "Dutch/Low Saxon mixture" results, we get http://www.google.com/search?q=%22dutch+low+saxon%22+-%22mixture+dialect+in+... 174 pages.
Among the first 10 of these, 5 of them are from messages written by you. None of the other ones in the first 10 refer to "Dutch Low Saxon" (again, they are all parts of lists and the like) except for http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2003-April/msg00069.html , which actually raises the issue of disunity of Low Saxon in the Netherlands, with many different dialects, orthographies, etc.
Now, you asked me to present you with "facts" rather than my opinion. I have provided you with plenty of evidence from websites now (I will direct you again to http://members.home.nl/goaitsen/twents/ , http://www.drentsetaol.nl/ http://www.grunnegertoal.nl/ , and http://www.stellingwarfs.nl/ ...) that 1) not many people seem to believe in a variety called "Dutch Low Saxon"; 2) many people regard Stellingwarfs, Grunnegers, Drèents, Tweants, Achterhooks, Veluws, Overyssels, etc. as separate languages.
Mark