Perhaps it should be noted that Dutch "Westfries" is different than English "West Frisian". They refer to two different speech varieties. I believe the English word for "Westfries" is in fact "Westfries", while the Dutch equivalent of "West Frisian" is "Westerlauwers Fries" (Gerard seems to think only stupid people use this term) or what most Dutch people simply call "Fries" (or if they're Westerlauwers Frisian, "Frysk").
This is one case where direct translations are not suitable and lead to much confusion:
Similarly when I say "Afrikaans taalinstituut" (sp?), it would directly be translated as "Institute of African languages" but it is also very possible that we should translate it as "Afrikaans language institute".
Mark
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:24:29 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard is not realising what I am saying.
There are indeed 3 different Frisian languages. Gerard believes I am talking about the various Frisian and Westfries (?) dialects of the Netherlands, but I am not. I am speaking of West Frisian (the Frisian of the Netherlands), which it is called by experts in books, on websites, and in conversation, vs. East Frisian (the Frisian of Saterland in Germany), vs. North Frisian (the Frisian of Nordfriesland in Germany).
I don't think Gerard realises that the latter two exist, and that the reason "West Frisian" is used by experts to refer to what most Dutch people simply call Fries ("Frisian") is because there are two different "Frisian" languages from which it must be differentiated.
Mark
On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:01:47 +0100, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi Till,
Fries, is a hot topic on the nl:wikipedia. We have had our fair share of skirmishes there. I have complained that what some call West Frisian is not West Frisian at all. It is Frisian. The history of the Frisians is a bit more complicated than most people know and many have decided to call Frisian proper all kind of names, including Westerlauwers Fries and West Frisian.
Westfries is something seperate. It was spoken in what is now Noord Holland and practically nobody speaks it anymore. Node is basically repeating what he reads in books. I live in this area called Westfriesland, I even have family coming from Friesland proper. Node decides that I do not know what I am talking about which is fine. Frisian is not three varieties like Node says. In http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries_%28taal%29 you may find that it can be split up even further not even considering Westfries as part of this all. This Westerlauwers Fries is a concept dreamed up to put many varieties of Frisian together. You will not have anyone in the Netherlands call Frisian West Frisian. To me it is stupid, never mind what fancy book it is in.
Thanks, :) GerardM
Till Westermayer wrote:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Mark, hi Gerard,
Apparently, you don't realise that there are basically 3 separate Frisian languages.
am I the only one how isn't able to realize what the hot fought discussion is about? As far as I understood the mails, Mark and Gerard were saying more or less the same. What is the difference? __ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Hirschstraße 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
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