I have been asked to look at a page where there has been an edit war for
half a year as an 'impartial outsider'. Does anyone have experience with
doing that? I have not started yet, but I fear that the outcome will be one
of the following three:
* I consider myself too little known about the subject to say anything
useful
* I agree with one of the parties, and get shit on by the other parties
* I agree with neither party, and get shit on by both.
--
Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com
ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
I have two major points in the following:
- As religions are disputed as fact, articles about them should conform to
the same style guidelines as articles about fiction.
- These style guidelines can be cumbersome and suffocating for articles,
and disclaimers might be a better way to preserve NPOV.
As a (once) active participant in WikiProject Stargate, which tries to
improve Wikipedia's coverage of articles related to the science-fiction
media franchise Stargate, I am all too aware of the importance of contextual
tone when writing about what is non-factual. It's not correct in an
encyclopedia to have an article about a fictional character, e.g. "Sokar",
and then state that "Sokar took over the universe in 2003." The article
should come from the perspective of "Sokar is a character from the
science-fiction series Stargate..... .....and during a major story arc
written by Martin Gero spanning 3 episodes, the character took over the
universe."
It is clear why this kind of clarification is needed. Sokar has not taken
over the universe. If the claims were about "Jack Bauer" "defeating
terrorists" it would sound more plausible of course: it is imperative to
clearly mark what is fact and fiction! It is a fact that "24", the fiction,
depicts certain fictional events.
Most articles do this to a fair extent already. However, I am concerned that
the focus for the Writing About Fiction guidelines is only on things like
Stargate. Religions apply to. Seen as these are disputed as fact, statements
cannot read "If the pilgrim dies before entering Mecca, their soul is sent
into limbo, where Allah will judge them by the purity of their soul and
their lifetime devotion to Islam and the words of Muhammad" (from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj). It is not encyclopedic fact that people
who've never been to the Hajj will have their souls sent to limbo for
Islamic judgment. This needs to be clarified as "Muslims believe that..."
It's either all or none: either fiction and religion articles must both
contain these clarifications, or none. And I think none might actually be
easier:
There are some types of articles (or just sections in articles) that by
their very nature are going to be 95% a documentation of non-factual things.
These include articles (or sections) about plots or religions, etc., etc.
Seen as there are so many articles/sections of this type, and prepending
every line with "It is believed..." or "It was depicted..." can suffocate
content, I was wondering if it might not be better to just have a disclaimer
template? Something to place at the top of a section, reading "The following
section discusses fictional events as depicted in [Stargate]" or "The
following section discusses the beliefs and opinions held by [Muslims]." The
template can be taken as temporary until someone rewords the section purely
factually.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Andre Engels [mailto:andreengels@gmail.com]
>Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2007 03:07 AM
>To: wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Intervening in an edit war
>
>I have been asked to look at a page where there has been an edit war for
>half a year as an 'impartial outsider'. Does anyone have experience with
>doing that? I have not started yet, but I fear that the outcome will be one
>of the following three:
>
>* I consider myself too little known about the subject to say anything
>useful
>* I agree with one of the parties, and get shit on by the other parties
>* I agree with neither party, and get shit on by both.
>
>--
>Andre Engels, andreengels(a)gmail.com
>ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
The first thing to do is take a long look at the editing history of both the article and its talk page (reading the cited references helps too). The theory behind this is that the more information you have, the better you can do with the situation. Likewise, without taking sides, let each party tell their side to you. They will probably do that if you email them and ask them about what is going on. Your course after you gain information depends on what you find out. If the parties are reasonable they may listen to suggestions based on what you have learned. If they are determined, come hell or high water, to get their way, they won't, but you won't know that without patient investigation and patient attempts to make helpful suggestions.
Work from the assumption that they are both trying hard to to the right thing and trying to follow Wikipedia policies as they understand them. Often there is considerable misunderstanding of our policies and practices as applied to specific issues. Perhaps you can clear these up.
Fred
I can't help thinking morerover that
the lisrt administrator of "unvlock-en-l", Essjay and Mindspillage have
had many sockpuppets beyond "Luna" and "Predego"
and abused admin's power.
What can you do for people(Wikipedians) besides listen to them?
On 02 Mar 2007, unblock-en-l-owner wrote:
>You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has
>been automatically rejected. If you think that your messages are
>being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
>unblock-en-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org.
By what reasons?
"Luna", who is suspected strongly the sockpuppet of the list administrator
of "Unblock-en-l",
said, "You can request to re-join the list at any time".
So, I have already requested it to the list administrators and the trustees.
Therefore, I have no need to be ordered by Lunacy-like persons.
Please don't reject my message "automatically", Essjay and Mindspillage.
>From: "Christoper Russel" <criticize_antijapanese_racism(a)msn.com>
>To: lunasantin(a)gmail.com, foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org,
>wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, unblock-en-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org,
>wikipedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, unblock-en-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>CC: info(a)wikimedia.org, board(a)wikimedia.org
>Subject: RE: Important notice -- please confirm your unblock-en-l
>subscription
>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 15:08:31 -0500
>I have to suspect strongly:
>Luna = Prodego = Essjay = "Ryan Jordan" = other many admin's sockpuppet's
>accounts
>= inappropriate admin's accounts group abusing sockpuppets and amin's power
>= Chinese and/or Korean group with anti-Japanese racism and facism.
>
>Why can't they allow IP address contributers to read "Unblock-en-l"?
(It is very useful!)
>Can "Luna"'s personal email below be actually valid?
>
>>From: Luna <lunasantin(a)gmail.com>
>>Subject: Important notice -- please confirm your unblock-en-l subscription
>>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:52:37 -0800
>>
>>Dear unblock-en-l subscriber,
>>
>>We've recently decided to establish some membership criteria for this
>>mailing list,
>
>When?
>Where?
>what kind of "membership criteria"?
>
>>and are in the process of removing subscriptions which do not meet those
>>criteria.
>
>Why is there necessity to remove subscriptions of Unblock-en-l?
>Admins already admitted too many unfair blockings enforced by crazy admins?
>
>If so. you only have to unblock all the victims of the crazy admins
>and stop all the crazy persons' adminship.
>
>>In particular, we need to associate your email address with a particular
>>Wikipedia account or identity.
>
>I had not a Wikipedia account and Wikipedia's admins apparently have
>blocked
>too many IP address users with no understandable reason.
>
>This means, admins themselves have been forcing many IP address
>contributors
>to have to subscribe "Unblock-en-l".
>
>Of course, anyone have freedom not to log in Wikipedia
>and all Wikipedias have allowed IP address contributors to edit Wikipedias'
>articles
>since the beginning.
>
>I myself don't want to talk with crazy facism(and racism) admins of
>Wikipedia.
>Apparently Chinese, Koreans, etc. have occupied and controlled Wikipedia
>very unfairly.
>
>I have to think:
>Luna = Prodego = Essjay = "Ryan Jordan" = other many admin's sockpuppet's
>accounts
>are Chinese, Koreans, Mexican, etc.
>who have never understood the value to respect democratic procedures and
>human rights.
>
>
>?In order to do that, please click on this link:
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Prodego
>
>"Prodego"?
>Essjay, Mindspillage, Luna, Prodego, and any other admins have never
>explained
>the necessity to click on this link.
>They have been only showing their stupid contradiction and their being evil
>sockpuppeters.
>
>>PLEASE use "unblock-en-l identification" as your subject heading, to allow
>>faster processing of your email.
>
>"Identification"?
>If you want people to reveal their identification, you should do it first.
>but,
>even "Essjay"("Ryan Jordan"?), the admin of "unblock-en-l", have been only
>lying
>about his identity and apparently abusing sockpuppets.
>
>It is Essjay, Mindspillage, Luna, Prodego, and any other admins of
>Wikipedia
>to make public their real "identification" and only them.
>
>
>>Do not email the user directly
>
>Why?
>Because "Luna" is just the sockpuppet of "Essjay"?
>
>>-- you MUST use the Special:Emailuser feature, or your identity will not
>>be confirmed.
>
>Why does "Luna" say "MUST"?
>I don't know "Predego" at all. And "Predego" is not the list administrator
>of "Unvlock-en-l".
>And Luna" is one of the crazy (anti-Japanese-racism-)facism admins.
>Like this:
>>If you have not replied to this message within one week, your subscription
>>will be cancelled. You can request to re-join the list at any time.
>
>"You can request to re-join the list at any time"?
>Now, I request it.
>
>I have already requested it to the list administrators and the trustees.
>So, I have no need to be ordered by Lunacy-like persons.
>
>>We apologize for this inconvenience, but hope that you understand the need
>>for privacy and security, given the sensitive personal information that is
>>sometimes discussed on this mailing list.
>
>"the need for privacy and security"?
>If you say such a decent thing, never send such a crazy emai to people
>and never compel them to do such dangerous things for their "privacy and
>security".
>
>All admins should do is to make all admins reveal their real identity,
>esp. Essjay, Mindspillage, Luna, Prodego.
>
>
>>Thank you,
>>-Luna
>
>Why "Luna"?
>Why "Prodego"?
>Why not "Essjay"?
>Why not "Mindspillage"?
>
>I couldn't believe my eyes.
>
>The admin's term should be expired every year or every six months.
>
>Sincerly,
>"Mileshand"(Christopher A. J. Russel)
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Find what you need at prices youll love. Compare products and save at MSN®
>Shopping.
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>
>
_________________________________________________________________
With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few
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I have to suspect strongly:
Luna = Prodego = Essjay = "Ryan Jordan" = other many admin's sockpuppet's
accounts
= inappropriate admin's accounts group abusing sockpuppets and amin's power
= Chinese and/or Korean group with anti-Japanese racism and facism
Why can't they allow IP address contributers to read "Unblock-en-l"?
Can "Luna"'s personal email below be actually valid?
>From: Luna <lunasantin(a)gmail.com>
>Subject: Important notice -- please confirm your unblock-en-l subscription
>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:52:37 -0800
>
>Dear unblock-en-l subscriber,
>
>We've recently decided to establish some membership criteria for this
>mailing list,
When?
Where?
what kind of "membership criteria"?
>and are in the process of removing subscriptions which do not meet those
>criteria.
Why is there necessity to remove subscriptions of Unblock-en-l?
Admins already admitted too many unfair blockings enforced by crazy admins?
If so. you only have to unblock all the victims of the crazy admins
and stop all the crazy persons' adminship.
>In particular, we need to associate your email address with a particular
>Wikipedia account or identity.
I had not a Wikipedia account and Wikipedia's admins apparently have blocked
too many IP address users with no understandable reason.
This means, admins themselves have been forcing many IP address contributors
to have to subscribe "Unblock-en-l".
Of course, anyone have freedom not to log in Wikipedia
and all Wikipedias have allowed IP address contributors to edit Wikipedias'
articles
since the beginning.
I myself don't want to talk with crazy facism(and racism) admins of
Wikipedia.
Apparently Chinese, Koreans, etc. have occupied and controlled Wikipedia
very unfairly.
I have to think:
Luna = Prodego = Essjay = "Ryan Jordan" = other many admin's sockpuppet's
accounts
are Chinese, Koreans, Mexican, etc.
who have never understood the value to respect democratic procedures and
human rights.
?In order to do that, please click on this link:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Prodego
"Prodego"?
Essjay, Mindspillage, Luna, Prodego, and any other admins have never
explained
the necessity to click on this link.
They have been only showing their stupid contradiction and their being evil
sockpuppeters.
>PLEASE use "unblock-en-l identification" as your subject heading, to allow
>faster processing of your email.
"Identification"?
If you want people to reveal their identification, you should do it first.
but,
even "Essjay"("Ryan Jordan"?), the admin of "unblock-en-l", have been only
lying
about his identity and apparently abusing sockpuppets.
It is Essjay, Mindspillage, Luna, Prodego, and any other admins of Wikipedia
to make public their real "identification" and only them.
>Do not email the user directly
Why?
Because "Luna" is just the sockpuppet of "Essjay"?
>-- you MUST use the Special:Emailuser feature, or your identity will not be
>confirmed.
Why does "Luna" say "MUST"?
I don't know "Predego" at all. And "Predego" is not the list administrator
of "Unvlock-en-l".
And Luna" is one of the crazy (anti-Japanese-racism-)facism admins.
Like this:
>If you have not replied to this message within one week, your subscription
>will be cancelled. You can request to re-join the list at any time.
"You can request to re-join the list at any time"?
Now, I request it.
I have already requested it to the list administrators and the trustees.
So, I have no need to be ordered by Lunacy-like persons.
>We apologize for this inconvenience, but hope that you understand the need
>for privacy and security, given the sensitive personal information that is
>sometimes discussed on this mailing list.
"the need for privacy and security"?
If you say such a decent thing, never send such a crazy emai to people
and never compel them to do such dangerous things for their "privacy and
security".
All admins should do is to make all admins reveal their real identity,
esp. Essjay, Mindspillage, Luna, Prodego.
>Thank you,
>-Luna
Why "Luna"?
Why "Prodego"?
Why not "Essjay"?
Why not "Mindspillage"?
I couldn't believe my eyes.
The admin's term should be expired every year or every six months.
Sincerly,
"Mileshand"(Christopher A. J. Russel)
_________________________________________________________________
Find what you need at prices youll love. Compare products and save at MSN®
Shopping.
http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN…
Wikimania, Wikimedia's annual global conference for the community, has
today released its call for participation.
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_Particpation
We will shortly be accepting submissions for presentations, panels,
discussions, posters, and more. I would like to encourage all
community members to make a submission. Wikimania is the wiki
conference aimed at the Wikimedia community, so it's essential that
you are represented here. If there is something interesting about your
wiki that you want to share with 400 Wikimedians in Taipei this
summer, please respond to this call for participation.
We are also looking for volunteers to review the submissions made and
help us to choose what will be presented at Wikimania. Depending on
what you would like to review, please contact one of the following
people to let them know you would like to help.
Wikimedia Communities presentations: Angela Beesley:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Angela
Free Content presentations: Phoebe Ayers:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Brassratgirl
Technical infrastructure presentations: James Forrester:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jdforrester
Posters and Panels (all themes): Jakob Voss:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:JakobVoss
Artistic artifacts, Workshops, and Birds-of-a-Feather (all themes):
TzuChiang Liou:
http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:TzuChiang_Liou
Angela Beesley
Since it is not coming throuh on foundation-l I put it here.
I personally have pictures of many Thai moviestars, comedians and
singers (I perform as a comedian almost everyday myself and meet them,
live in tv-shows and when I play in movies), and it would be easy for me
to make pictures on request (especially of all Thai comedians) as I know
where to find many of them. But what makes me hesitating from uploading
to commons is a couple of things ....
1) Non Thai people will not know them so they will probably be deleted
from commons in no time, it would take time for the Thai and other
communities to write articles on them as info on them is scarce and in
English virtually non existing. (of most I wouldn't even be able to give
their names, I know they are on tv regularly though)
2) I have seen people "upgrade" pictures resulting in horrible colours
on paintings and other pictures. Usually this means imho pictures get
maimed.
3) I do not want these pictures to be used commercially (although I
could solve this by uploading low quality small pictures)
I also have pictures of Indian moviestars: Dharmendra Deol, Bobby Deol ,
Sunny Deol, Shilpa Shetty and a lot of others with whom I played in the
movie Apne. But the above reason keeps me from uploading to commons. I
feel that many people have pictures of stars but they hesitate to upload
them for some of the same reasons.
Waerth