To Angela, Anthere, Jimbo, Developers and anyone else I might have
scolded a bit to much on the Sorbs issue. I was way out of line
especially with regards to my remarks towards Angela, Anthere and Jimbo
in mail and the developers on IRC, all of whom I know would help at all
times. I am sorry and my apologies.
My problem is not that I do not understand why the measures are taken
(at least my brain does), they are unfortunately necassary at times. It
is just that the heart doesn't understand it and flares up. It is a
normal problem with me. The heart takes over from the brain and the
damage is done.
Waerth / Walter van Kalken
Hello!
I recently noticed that Slovene common image descriptions have also
English text, eg.: http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slika:Evo7glyph.png
Is this a bug or somebody's intention?
--
Pozdrav,
Roman
> Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
> A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
> Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of
people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of
Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh
wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which
is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna
actually ken the leid.
(It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current
WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But
they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is
"Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of
German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms,
but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language,
the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ...
would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ...
and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really
only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient,
German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the
difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I
just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always
welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even
the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un
kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un
"dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best
Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger <BorisLohnzweiger(a)web.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark!
>
> I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
>
> I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
>
> Boris
>
> Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
>
> Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
> ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
> nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
> personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
> nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
> rather a "contact variety".
>
> Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
> huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
> fact that it's written in Missingsch.
>
> Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
> real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
>
> Mark
>
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Veerder lykt et myn 'n goed idee üm hierover te disküssieern in et
NDS, kü'w drekt sien wies NDS goed genog is üm dit te verstaon haha!
:-)
Groetnis!
Servien!
Makkel'k!
Tot siens(?)
pippu d'angelo, canberra
---------------------------------
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Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on
ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real
nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have
personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about
nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but
rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this
huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the
fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start
real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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Most of the time I prefer to avoid those hot-tempered arguments but this time I'd like to share a few things that crossed my mind while reading the e-mails on the Dutch Low Saxon issue. I hope I can keep it reasonably short.
1. Of course, Wikipedias should try to unite as many people as possible and transcend minor variations in languages (e. g. British and American English share one Wikipedia).
2. Of course, the regional variants of Low Saxon form a dialect continuum, i. e. mutual intelligibility decreases with increasing distance.
3. Of course, in linguistics national borders don't equal language barriers.
4. However, in real-life political borders in Europe have throughout the centuries left clear marks on the way people speak and write. New words and idioms entered the dialects almost always via Standard German or Standard Dutch respectively. Whenever speakers of Low Saxon dialects write something down, they fall back on the languages they were taught writing in - that is either Dutch or German. Furthermore, all Low Saxon speakers in the Netherlands are confronted with Standard Dutch every single day while those living east of the border deal with Hochdeutsch day after day. Thus, speech varieties can and do develop separately if they're spoken 4 km apart from one another - even if that's only the size of a Wal-Mart parking lot in Arizona.
5. Of course, splitting nds into Dutch and German editions will not eliminate the difficulties a person from Pommeria will face in trying to understand the vernacular speech of someone from East Frisia. But it will reduce the overall spectrum the Low Saxon Wikipedia has to cover now.
When I first read the request for a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia I considered it a little far-fetched myself. But it's a matter of fact that we can't expect people from the Netherlands to adapt to the "German" lexicon and way of spelling used in nds if they want to contribute. Accordingly, any "Dutch" orthography and loan words like "pagina" or "kreeren" would simply appear strange and "foreign" to anyone living in Germany.
So I've come to the conclusion that while it might appear an inappropriate solution from a scholarly (or ivory tower?) perspective to set up a separate Wikipedia for Low Saxon in the Netherlands, it is a very workable solution from a real world perspective.
Boris
P. S. In German, the idiom goes "Auf einem hohen Ross reiten"
wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org schrieb am 03.07.05 20:41:12:
>Servien, at this point you have gone beyond even a distortion of
>reality to pure fantasy. Speech varieties cannot develop separately if
>they're spoken 4km apart from one another (an example I gave earlier
>in the thread), unless there's a huge geographical barrier between
>them.
Mark, do you know what you are doing? Do you know the Dutch expressions
"hoog van de toren blazen" and "een grote bek opzetten"? You can freely
translate them into "rydelling". That is what you do. You contribute a lot
of useful, constructive things, but yet you make yourself fall in disgrace
with mingling in anything, persisting in your own position and addressing
people hostilly. And the difference with Rydel is that he only does so in
things concerning Belarus and Belarusian (or however you want to spell it),
and you do so in all topics concerning languages. I must admit, however,
that as far as I know you never scolded people for nazi or stalinist.
Wouter
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Hi Mark,
It's quite ununderstandable, it's not just the orthography, but in
Germany they use different words so you have to know that dialect to
understand it. I can understand the first sentence, but the second
sentence is very hard to understand, the first part of this sentence is
understandable as well, at "veet nu Bescheed" it's completely
ununderstandable for any Low Saxon speaker in the Netherlands: "Man de
Bezeukers vun de Lezung miet Hartmut Cyriacks un Peter Niszen veet nu
Bescheed euver den plattduutschen Harry Potter. De Kulturvereen "PEP" un
de Stadtbeukerie Kelinghuzen harrn de baaiden Plattmakers inlaodt, un dat
veer en heel gode Idee..."
The first sentence of that text is even different in Dutch-Low Saxon:
"Wie weet nog wat en teuvernaor is? Dat et Platduutse woord deurveur
"Sauwberer" is, bin de meeste minsen waorschynlik al vergeten.
(Plattdeutsch: "Wokeen veet noch, vat en Teuverer is? Dut ole
plattduutsche Wort veur "Zaauberer" hebbt de mehrsten Luud maaist
vergeten.")
Hope you get my point now...
Servien Ilaino
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Williamson"
To: wikipedia-l(a)wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 17:00:59 -0700
>
> Hi Servien,
>
> Please check out
>
http://s87257573.onlinehome.us/ks/index.php?title=HP_op_Platt&variant=ks-de
> and tell me what you think of the conversion.
>
> It's obviously not perfect but I'm still working on it.
>
> Any tips for improvements (ie, specific spelling errors) are
welcome.
>
> Mark
>
> On 02/07/05, Servien Ilaino wrote:
> > Sorry it's suppose to be
> > http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruker:Servien/Heufdbladsyde
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Servien Ilaino"
> > To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org
> > Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch-Low Saxon test-mainpage
> > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:11:47 -0500
> >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I requested Dutch-Low Saxon a few weeks ago and I kind of made
my
> > own
> > > mainpage for Wikipedia (if it ever gets created that is...) but
> > anyway...
> > > for people who like to check it out here is the link:
> > > http://nds.wikipedia.org/Bruker:Servien/Heufdbladsyde
> > >
> > > Please post any suggestions and stuff, like to read some
comments.
> > >
> > > Question: On Wikipedia-L posts are mostly grouped together, but
how
> > do
> > > you do that? (messages below each other like on wikipedia ":
and ::
> > and
> > > :::" to show those are the replies. I hope you kind of
understand
> > it
> > > because I don't really know how to explain it myself haha.)
> > >
> > > Servien Ilaino!
> > >
> > > --
> > > ___________________________________________________________
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A little announcement by Lilo, the director of PDPC and the head of
staff of freenode. For those who do not know... Freenode is ... our irc
service...
Freenode is short on their last fundraising and would welcome any help
from those who use irc, likes it (ircholics) ....
The fundraising page is http://freenode.net/fundraiser.shtml
For those who wish to support freenode, please paste the little text
below on your project pumps or news page. Thanks in advance for freenode.
Anthere
* '''24 June 2005 : Please help'''. [[w:Peer-Directed Projects Center]]
runs [[w:freenode]], an interactive service which helps Wikipedia and
the FOSS community. Their annual fundraiser ends July 1, and they're
about $8,500 short. [http://freenode.net/fundraiser.shtml Their
fundraising page]. From Lilo, the director of PDPC and the head of staff
of freenode. Please spread the word... freenode is very helpful for us.
Your IP address is listed as an open proxy in the [http://www.sorbs.net
SORBS] DNSBL. You cannot create an account
It is nice that I cannot create accounts anymore ...... it is neat that
I am considered a vandal. Can we please stop the nonsense it becomes
extremely irritating.
Walter/Waerth
What the hell! I just discovered the test wiki article
http://meta.wikimedia.org/Test-wp:Seeltersk/Fräiske_Sproake has disappeared!
This can impossibly be done by the author, who can only erase the text. So
either this is a kind of database error, or a moderator on meta: deleted it!
There is one main suspect.
WHY on earth do such things happen? Can those test wikis /never/ be left in
peace?
Wouter
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