Dear all,
As a member - and former chair - of Wikimedia France, this kind of message really hurts my feelings and I still wonder why they can be posted on international mailing lists. We are supposed to act as responsible adults and work together so that the chapters can manage projects... and I keep thinking we are pretty good at it.
I don't want to read "shame", "false statement", "use Louise passing", "uncollaborative way". Both because it's a very agressive way to talk to human beings, because it's misleading people about what's going on, and because it's simply not true.
A few French wkipedians are not happy with the board and some of the employees. They are about 25-30% of Wikimedia France members and asked for a General Meeting - which will take place in September. Some of their concerns can be understood, but some of those wikipedians began to accuse the board of squandering money without any ground for it (there have been two audits within the past few years and all the accounts/expenses are audited yearly, published and commented to the members), to go and see former employee's bosses to stalk them, to spread rumours on their sexuality, to report members of the board to their own boss etc. This is going mad. Really mad.
This is not "the community", Pierre-Selim, I'm sorry. This is a few people, for various reasons, usualy very personal and very bad ones. And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and cannot be done within a chapter.
I'm really worried about the behaviour of those people, and the future of Wikimedia France - since the harassment could lead to prosecution from employees.
Best,
Rémi
From: Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info Date: 2 August 2017 at 20:09 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on Wikimédia France To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
The passing of Louise is really sad :(
On the other fronts, Edouard it feels like you're not telling things the way they really are.
"The board acknowledge..." means the board has been forced to a new AGM by 25% of the member. Our bylaws dictate that.
The board has published a shameful "Right of reply" [1], full of inexact/false statements that are on the same line than the email sent by the board on July 11th (and shared here by Chris [2]). This Right of reply even "use" Louise passing ... For shame!
In an uncollaborative way, the board has not listen to the community/member for the agenda which forces the members to a new vote [3] to add items to the agenda ... during the summer ... and Wikimania.
I hope the board will have again to "Acknowlege" the voice of the community, but I wish we did not had to go this way.
I am truly ashamed of this board,
[1] https://www.mathisbenguigui.eu/wikimedia-timeline/droitdereponse.html [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-July/ 088008.html [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim%C3%A9dia_France/ Assemblée_générale/septembre_2017/Points_à_ajouter_à_l'ordre_du_jour
2017-07-26 17:56 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com:
Yes, I figured this out, thanks. Now copyediting.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Natacha Rault n.rault@me.com wrote:
probably me...
Le 26 juil. 2017 à 17:49, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com a
écrit
:
Actually, after Catherine's mail, an English article was started by
someone
I can not recognize from the username.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Merzeau
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Katherine Maher <
kmaher@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Dear Édouard and our other colleagues at Wikimédia France,
We are sorry to hear about the passing of Mrs. Louise Merzeau.
While I
did
not have a chance to meet her, I understand she was an advocate for
the
Commons movement and a leading academic on digital identities and
the
relationship between technology and culture. I suspect we would have
gotten
along well.
Although she did not get to share her knowledge longer, we are
grateful
for
the contributions she made. I have no doubt Wikimedia would have
benefited
greatly from her continued advocacy.
I recognize with everything that is going on, an event like this can quickly pass by without enough notice and tribute from all of us.
However,
I hope we can pause to recognize that, above all, we are people who
have
come together under a shared vision for a better future. The passion
and
bond that unites us are much stronger than any disagreements or
challenges.
Louise was a part of that vision, and we owe it to her to recognize
her
passing.
On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, please know that she is in
our
thoughts and that the community has our condolences.
Katherine
PS. I encourage you to learn more about Mrs. Merzeau and her life
from
her
article on French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Louise_Merzeau
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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And for the sake of proper understanding... Rémi Mathis is the husband of the current vice-chair of Wikimedia France.
Nuff said.
Florence
Le 03/08/2017 à 12:17, Rémi Mathis a écrit :
Dear all,
As a member - and former chair - of Wikimedia France, this kind of message really hurts my feelings and I still wonder why they can be posted on international mailing lists. We are supposed to act as responsible adults and work together so that the chapters can manage projects... and I keep thinking we are pretty good at it.
I don't want to read "shame", "false statement", "use Louise passing", "uncollaborative way". Both because it's a very agressive way to talk to human beings, because it's misleading people about what's going on, and because it's simply not true.
A few French wkipedians are not happy with the board and some of the employees. They are about 25-30% of Wikimedia France members and asked for a General Meeting - which will take place in September. Some of their concerns can be understood, but some of those wikipedians began to accuse the board of squandering money without any ground for it (there have been two audits within the past few years and all the accounts/expenses are audited yearly, published and commented to the members), to go and see former employee's bosses to stalk them, to spread rumours on their sexuality, to report members of the board to their own boss etc. This is going mad. Really mad.
This is not "the community", Pierre-Selim, I'm sorry. This is a few people, for various reasons, usualy very personal and very bad ones. And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and cannot be done within a chapter.
I'm really worried about the behaviour of those people, and the future of Wikimedia France - since the harassment could lead to prosecution from employees.
Best,
Rémi
From: Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info Date: 2 August 2017 at 20:09 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on Wikimédia France To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
The passing of Louise is really sad :(
On the other fronts, Edouard it feels like you're not telling things the way they really are.
"The board acknowledge..." means the board has been forced to a new AGM by 25% of the member. Our bylaws dictate that.
The board has published a shameful "Right of reply" [1], full of inexact/false statements that are on the same line than the email sent by the board on July 11th (and shared here by Chris [2]). This Right of reply even "use" Louise passing ... For shame!
In an uncollaborative way, the board has not listen to the community/member for the agenda which forces the members to a new vote [3] to add items to the agenda ... during the summer ... and Wikimania.
I hope the board will have again to "Acknowlege" the voice of the community, but I wish we did not had to go this way.
I am truly ashamed of this board,
[1] https://www.mathisbenguigui.eu/wikimedia-timeline/droitdereponse.html [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-July/ 088008.html [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim%C3%A9dia_France/ Assemblée_générale/septembre_2017/Points_à_ajouter_à_l'ordre_du_jour
2017-07-26 17:56 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com:
Yes, I figured this out, thanks. Now copyediting.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Natacha Rault n.rault@me.com wrote:
probably me...
Le 26 juil. 2017 à 17:49, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com a
écrit
:
Actually, after Catherine's mail, an English article was started by
someone
I can not recognize from the username.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Merzeau
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Katherine Maher <
kmaher@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Dear Édouard and our other colleagues at Wikimédia France,
We are sorry to hear about the passing of Mrs. Louise Merzeau.
While I
did
not have a chance to meet her, I understand she was an advocate for
the
Commons movement and a leading academic on digital identities and
the
relationship between technology and culture. I suspect we would have
gotten
along well.
Although she did not get to share her knowledge longer, we are
grateful
for
the contributions she made. I have no doubt Wikimedia would have
benefited
greatly from her continued advocacy.
I recognize with everything that is going on, an event like this can quickly pass by without enough notice and tribute from all of us.
However,
I hope we can pause to recognize that, above all, we are people who
have
come together under a shared vision for a better future. The passion
and
bond that unites us are much stronger than any disagreements or
challenges.
Louise was a part of that vision, and we owe it to her to recognize
her
passing.
On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, please know that she is in
our
thoughts and that the community has our condolences.
Katherine
PS. I encourage you to learn more about Mrs. Merzeau and her life
from
her
article on French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Louise_Merzeau
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma
ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
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bscribe>
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This is typically the kind agressive behaviour we don't need right now. Everybody in the chapter knows that Marie-Alice Mathis and Rémi Mathis are wife and husband, it has always been clearly stated and we always refused to be at the board at the same time to avoid conflicts of interest.
Now what? Do you think I can't have opinions of my own because I'm not a member of the board, or she can't have because she's a manipulated woman? We are *two individuals* and we do have *two brains*. This kind of allegations are not acceptable and the smugness of "Nuff said" really hurtful!
I am an ordinary member... but I think I have a certain experience of what's going on 1/ as a long-time member of the board (2009-2014) and chair (2011-2014), who hired most of the employees, managed them, organized a lot of what made Wikimedia France one of the biggest and most sucessful chapters... and a member still really involved in the life of the community 2/ as someone, yes, who sees her wife spending hours every night, trying to explain things to people who don't want to hear or understand. Like, you know, when you ask a question about a fact, I answer to you with a *checkable fact*. And you answer "I don't agree" (not even "it's not true", because everybody could check that, but "I don't agree")...
I can't even understand why you post things like at all, but even less on an international list where people don't know what happens and, for most of them, can't read French. This really makes me sad and frustrated
Rémi
On 3 August 2017 at 12:47, Devouard (gmail) fdevouard@gmail.com wrote:
And for the sake of proper understanding... Rémi Mathis is the husband of the current vice-chair of Wikimedia France.
Nuff said.
Florence
Le 03/08/2017 à 12:17, Rémi Mathis a écrit :
Dear all,
As a member - and former chair - of Wikimedia France, this kind of message really hurts my feelings and I still wonder why they can be posted on international mailing lists. We are supposed to act as responsible adults and work together so that the chapters can manage projects... and I keep thinking we are pretty good at it.
I don't want to read "shame", "false statement", "use Louise passing", "uncollaborative way". Both because it's a very agressive way to talk to human beings, because it's misleading people about what's going on, and because it's simply not true.
A few French wkipedians are not happy with the board and some of the employees. They are about 25-30% of Wikimedia France members and asked for a General Meeting - which will take place in September. Some of their concerns can be understood, but some of those wikipedians began to accuse the board of squandering money without any ground for it (there have been two audits within the past few years and all the accounts/expenses are audited yearly, published and commented to the members), to go and see former employee's bosses to stalk them, to spread rumours on their sexuality, to report members of the board to their own boss etc. This is going mad. Really mad.
This is not "the community", Pierre-Selim, I'm sorry. This is a few people, for various reasons, usualy very personal and very bad ones. And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and cannot be done within a chapter.
I'm really worried about the behaviour of those people, and the future of Wikimedia France - since the harassment could lead to prosecution from employees.
Best,
Rémi
From: Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info Date: 2 August 2017 at 20:09 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on Wikimédia France To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
The passing of Louise is really sad :(
On the other fronts, Edouard it feels like you're not telling things the way they really are.
"The board acknowledge..." means the board has been forced to a new AGM by 25% of the member. Our bylaws dictate that.
The board has published a shameful "Right of reply" [1], full of inexact/false statements that are on the same line than the email sent by the board on July 11th (and shared here by Chris [2]). This Right of reply even "use" Louise passing ... For shame!
In an uncollaborative way, the board has not listen to the community/member for the agenda which forces the members to a new vote [3] to add items to the agenda ... during the summer ... and Wikimania.
I hope the board will have again to "Acknowlege" the voice of the community, but I wish we did not had to go this way.
I am truly ashamed of this board,
[1] https://www.mathisbenguigui.eu/wikimedia-timeline/droitderep onse.html [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-July/ 088008.html [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim%C3%A9dia_France/ Assemblée_générale/septembre_2017/Points_à_ajouter_à_l'ordre_du_jour
2017-07-26 17:56 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com:
Yes, I figured this out, thanks. Now copyediting.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Natacha Rault n.rault@me.com wrote:
probably me...
Le 26 juil. 2017 à 17:49, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com a
écrit
:
Actually, after Catherine's mail, an English article was started by
someone
I can not recognize from the username.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Merzeau
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Katherine Maher <
kmaher@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Dear Édouard and our other colleagues at Wikimédia France, > > We are sorry to hear about the passing of Mrs. Louise Merzeau. > While I
did
not have a chance to meet her, I understand she was an advocate for > the
Commons movement and a leading academic on digital identities and
> the
relationship between technology and culture. I suspect we would have
> gotten
along well. > > Although she did not get to share her knowledge longer, we are > grateful
for
the contributions she made. I have no doubt Wikimedia would have > benefited
greatly from her continued advocacy. > > I recognize with everything that is going on, an event like this can > quickly pass by without enough notice and tribute from all of us. > However,
I hope we can pause to recognize that, above all, we are people who > have
come together under a shared vision for a better future. The passion
> and
bond that unites us are much stronger than any disagreements or
> challenges.
Louise was a part of that vision, and we owe it to her to recognize > her
passing.
> > On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, please know that she is in > our
thoughts and that the community has our condolences.
> > Katherine > > PS. I encourage you to learn more about Mrs. Merzeau and her life > from
her
article on French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Louise_Merzeau
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
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> bscribe>
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I will bi going to the September 9 GA, and for the moment I still am a member of Wikimedia France. I am posting here in spite of the risk, because I want to set a few things straight.
25% of the French chapter asked for this GA knowing full well that the annual GA was scheduled a month later in October. A few of the most vocal opponents have been expelled from the chapter, some of them for failure to pay their dues before the deadline. Other active French wikipedians have had their admission refused. In spite of all that, a quarter of the members asked to hold this extra GA. I my experience, this is a serious crisis and the current French chapter leadership cannot ignore that fact.
We cannot immediately qualify any dissenting as "aggressive behavior" or "harassment". It has become quite impossible for current members to express their views for fear of being expelled from the chapter, or being accused of harassing the chapter president or senior staff - I do make a distinction between the ED and the staff who are having a hard time and who work under the risk of being fired if they refuse to obey orders (like what has just happened to Jules). We all are very appreciative and thankful for the work done by the "employees", we are quite critical of the ED.
Florence is quite right about being concerned about the very sudden increase in membership, and I fully suspect that these new members will be at the GA in September. Before being involved in Wikimedia, I was quite involved in labor unions (and still am), so I have seen this type of maneuvering before. It makes me quite sad to see this happen to a Wikimedia Chapter, but that is probably because I am much too much of an idealist.
I will quote Rémi Mathis: "This is a few people, for various reasons, usualy very personal and very bad ones. And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and cannot be done within a chapter.
I'm really worried about the behaviour of those people, and the future of Wikimedia France - since the harassment could lead to prosecution from employees."
For one, I think that Rémi should steer clear of this type of discussion, because he has a very clear COI. Sorry Rémi, you are not an "ordinary member". Now what really disturbs me is that Rémi tries to discredit the members who are asking for a GA by implying that they have an agenda, that they are very few, and that they "refuse to acknowledge reality". As a labor union leader, I have had exactly the same accusations leveled at me. And I hope that Rémi knows what he is talking about when he speaks of harassment, because I have never experienced a case where one of the labor unions I worked with had to pay a company executive compensation for "harassment".
Best regards Gabe
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Rémi Mathis mathis.remi@gmail.com wrote:
This is typically the kind agressive behaviour we don't need right now. Everybody in the chapter knows that Marie-Alice Mathis and Rémi Mathis are wife and husband, it has always been clearly stated and we always refused to be at the board at the same time to avoid conflicts of interest.
Now what? Do you think I can't have opinions of my own because I'm not a member of the board, or she can't have because she's a manipulated woman? We are *two individuals* and we do have *two brains*. This kind of allegations are not acceptable and the smugness of "Nuff said" really hurtful!
I am an ordinary member... but I think I have a certain experience of what's going on 1/ as a long-time member of the board (2009-2014) and chair (2011-2014), who hired most of the employees, managed them, organized a lot of what made Wikimedia France one of the biggest and most sucessful chapters... and a member still really involved in the life of the community 2/ as someone, yes, who sees her wife spending hours every night, trying to explain things to people who don't want to hear or understand. Like, you know, when you ask a question about a fact, I answer to you with a *checkable fact*. And you answer "I don't agree" (not even "it's not true", because everybody could check that, but "I don't agree")...
I can't even understand why you post things like at all, but even less on an international list where people don't know what happens and, for most of them, can't read French. This really makes me sad and frustrated
Rémi
On 3 August 2017 at 12:47, Devouard (gmail) fdevouard@gmail.com wrote:
And for the sake of proper understanding... Rémi Mathis is the husband of the current vice-chair of Wikimedia France.
Nuff said.
Florence
Le 03/08/2017 à 12:17, Rémi Mathis a écrit :
Dear all,
As a member - and former chair - of Wikimedia France, this kind of
message
really hurts my feelings and I still wonder why they can be posted on international mailing lists. We are supposed to act as responsible adults and work together so that
the
chapters can manage projects... and I keep thinking we are pretty good
at
it.
I don't want to read "shame", "false statement", "use Louise passing", "uncollaborative way". Both because it's a very agressive way to talk to human beings, because it's misleading people about what's going on, and because it's simply
not
true.
A few French wkipedians are not happy with the board and some of the employees. They are about 25-30% of Wikimedia France members and asked
for
a General Meeting - which will take place in September. Some of their concerns can be understood, but some of those wikipedians began to accuse the board of squandering money without any ground for it (there have been two audits within the past few years and all the accounts/expenses are audited yearly, published and commented to the members), to go and see former employee's bosses to stalk them, to
spread
rumours on their sexuality, to report members of the board to their own boss etc. This is going mad. Really mad.
This is not "the community", Pierre-Selim, I'm sorry. This is a few people, for various reasons, usualy very personal and very bad ones. And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and
cannot
be done within a chapter.
I'm really worried about the behaviour of those people, and the future
of
Wikimedia France - since the harassment could lead to prosecution from employees.
Best,
Rémi
From: Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info Date: 2 August 2017 at 20:09 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on Wikimédia France To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
The passing of Louise is really sad :(
On the other fronts, Edouard it feels like you're not telling things
the
way they really are.
"The board acknowledge..." means the board has been forced to a new AGM by 25% of the member. Our bylaws dictate that.
The board has published a shameful "Right of reply" [1], full of inexact/false statements that are on the same line than the email sent by the board on July 11th (and shared here by Chris [2]). This Right of reply even "use" Louise passing ... For shame!
In an uncollaborative way, the board has not listen to the community/member for the agenda which forces the members to a new vote [3] to add items to
the
agenda ... during the summer ... and Wikimania.
I hope the board will have again to "Acknowlege" the voice of the community, but I wish we did not had to go this way.
I am truly ashamed of this board,
[1] https://www.mathisbenguigui.eu/wikimedia-timeline/droitderep onse.html [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-July/ 088008.html [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim%C3%A9dia_France/ Assemblée_générale/septembre_2017/Points_à_ajouter_à_l'ordre_du_jour
2017-07-26 17:56 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com:
Yes, I figured this out, thanks. Now copyediting.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Natacha Rault n.rault@me.com
wrote:
probably me...
> Le 26 juil. 2017 à 17:49, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com a > écrit
:
> Actually, after Catherine's mail, an English article was started by > someone
> I can not recognize from the username. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Merzeau > > Cheers > Yaroslav > > On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Katherine Maher < > kmaher@wikimedia.org
wrote: > > Dear Édouard and our other colleagues at Wikimédia France, >> >> We are sorry to hear about the passing of Mrs. Louise Merzeau. >> > While I
did
> not have a chance to meet her, I understand she was an advocate for >> > the
Commons movement and a leading academic on digital identities and >> > the
relationship between technology and culture. I suspect we would have
>> > gotten
> along well. >> >> Although she did not get to share her knowledge longer, we are >> > grateful
for
> the contributions she made. I have no doubt Wikimedia would have >> > benefited
> greatly from her continued advocacy. >> >> I recognize with everything that is going on, an event like this
can
>> quickly pass by without enough notice and tribute from all of us. >> > However,
> I hope we can pause to recognize that, above all, we are people who >> > have
come together under a shared vision for a better future. The passion >> > and
bond that unites us are much stronger than any disagreements or >> > challenges.
> Louise was a part of that vision, and we owe it to her to recognize >> > her
passing. >> >> On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, please know that she is in >> > our
thoughts and that the community has our condolences.
>> >> Katherine >> >> PS. I encourage you to learn more about Mrs. Merzeau and her life >> > from
her
> article on French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ >> > Louise_Merzeau
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Dear Gabriel,
OK, I won't post here anymore since I'm not welcome. I'm just a little surprised some can tell things that are terribly hurtful and agressive (and just false) without any problem and that I'm supposed to be silenced because my wife is on the board.
Violence is really a problem we have to deal with in our communities and I'm afraid this shows the solution is yet to be found.
Thus, I would love to discuss things with you (why "critical of the ED" ? More largely, why can't an ED stay more than a few years in any chapter? Isn't there a general issue between some members and employees?) but it won't be on this list - you know where to find me if you please - but I guess you won't since it's "maneuvering" and no good faith will be assumed :-/
The last few lines one more time makes people think the chapter was and is not professional. Managing several employees and an important budget, the chapter has always worked consulting lawyers and respecting the law ad litteram. I'm not even talking about medicals doctors, who also have opinions, alas, on what happens :-/
So, this will be my last message on the subject, leaving the ground to... always the same people. Best
Rémi
On 3 August 2017 at 14:02, Gabriel Thullen gabriel@thullen.com wrote:
I will bi going to the September 9 GA, and for the moment I still am a member of Wikimedia France. I am posting here in spite of the risk, because I want to set a few things straight.
25% of the French chapter asked for this GA knowing full well that the annual GA was scheduled a month later in October. A few of the most vocal opponents have been expelled from the chapter, some of them for failure to pay their dues before the deadline. Other active French wikipedians have had their admission refused. In spite of all that, a quarter of the members asked to hold this extra GA. I my experience, this is a serious crisis and the current French chapter leadership cannot ignore that fact.
We cannot immediately qualify any dissenting as "aggressive behavior" or "harassment". It has become quite impossible for current members to express their views for fear of being expelled from the chapter, or being accused of harassing the chapter president or senior staff - I do make a distinction between the ED and the staff who are having a hard time and who work under the risk of being fired if they refuse to obey orders (like what has just happened to Jules). We all are very appreciative and thankful for the work done by the "employees", we are quite critical of the ED.
Florence is quite right about being concerned about the very sudden increase in membership, and I fully suspect that these new members will be at the GA in September. Before being involved in Wikimedia, I was quite involved in labor unions (and still am), so I have seen this type of maneuvering before. It makes me quite sad to see this happen to a Wikimedia Chapter, but that is probably because I am much too much of an idealist.
I will quote Rémi Mathis: "This is a few people, for various reasons, usualy very personal and very bad ones. And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and cannot be done within a chapter.
I'm really worried about the behaviour of those people, and the future of Wikimedia France - since the harassment could lead to prosecution from employees."
For one, I think that Rémi should steer clear of this type of discussion, because he has a very clear COI. Sorry Rémi, you are not an "ordinary member". Now what really disturbs me is that Rémi tries to discredit the members who are asking for a GA by implying that they have an agenda, that they are very few, and that they "refuse to acknowledge reality". As a labor union leader, I have had exactly the same accusations leveled at me. And I hope that Rémi knows what he is talking about when he speaks of harassment, because I have never experienced a case where one of the labor unions I worked with had to pay a company executive compensation for "harassment".
Best regards Gabe
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Rémi Mathis mathis.remi@gmail.com wrote:
This is typically the kind agressive behaviour we don't need right now. Everybody in the chapter knows that Marie-Alice Mathis and Rémi Mathis
are
wife and husband, it has always been clearly stated and we always refused to be at the board at the same time to avoid conflicts of interest.
Now what? Do you think I can't have opinions of my own because I'm not a member of the board, or she can't have because she's a manipulated woman? We are *two individuals* and we do have *two brains*. This kind of allegations are not acceptable and the smugness of "Nuff said" really hurtful!
I am an ordinary member... but I think I have a certain experience of what's going on 1/ as a long-time member of the board (2009-2014) and chair (2011-2014), who hired most of the employees, managed them, organized a lot of what
made
Wikimedia France one of the biggest and most sucessful chapters... and a member still really involved in the life of the community 2/ as someone, yes, who sees her wife spending hours every night, trying
to
explain things to people who don't want to hear or understand. Like, you know, when you ask a question about a fact, I answer to you with a *checkable fact*. And you answer "I don't agree" (not even "it's not
true",
because everybody could check that, but "I don't agree")...
I can't even understand why you post things like at all, but even less on an international list where people don't know what happens and, for most
of
them, can't read French. This really makes me sad and frustrated
Rémi
On 3 August 2017 at 12:47, Devouard (gmail) fdevouard@gmail.com wrote:
And for the sake of proper understanding... Rémi Mathis is the husband
of
the current vice-chair of Wikimedia France.
Nuff said.
Florence
Le 03/08/2017 à 12:17, Rémi Mathis a écrit :
Dear all,
As a member - and former chair - of Wikimedia France, this kind of
message
really hurts my feelings and I still wonder why they can be posted on international mailing lists. We are supposed to act as responsible adults and work together so that
the
chapters can manage projects... and I keep thinking we are pretty good
at
it.
I don't want to read "shame", "false statement", "use Louise passing", "uncollaborative way". Both because it's a very agressive way to talk to human beings,
because
it's misleading people about what's going on, and because it's simply
not
true.
A few French wkipedians are not happy with the board and some of the employees. They are about 25-30% of Wikimedia France members and asked
for
a General Meeting - which will take place in September. Some of their concerns can be understood, but some of those
wikipedians
began to accuse the board of squandering money without any ground for
it
(there have been two audits within the past few years and all the accounts/expenses are audited yearly, published and commented to the members), to go and see former employee's bosses to stalk them, to
spread
rumours on their sexuality, to report members of the board to their
own
boss etc. This is going mad. Really mad.
This is not "the community", Pierre-Selim, I'm sorry. This is a few people, for various reasons, usualy very personal and
very
bad ones. And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when
the
board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and
cannot
be done within a chapter.
I'm really worried about the behaviour of those people, and the future
of
Wikimedia France - since the harassment could lead to prosecution from employees.
Best,
Rémi
From: Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info Date: 2 August 2017 at 20:09 Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Update on Wikimédia France To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
The passing of Louise is really sad :(
On the other fronts, Edouard it feels like you're not telling things
the
way they really are.
"The board acknowledge..." means the board has been forced to a new
AGM
by 25% of the member. Our bylaws dictate that.
The board has published a shameful "Right of reply" [1], full of inexact/false statements that are on the same line than the email sent by the board on July 11th (and shared here by Chris [2]). This Right of reply even "use" Louise passing ... For shame!
In an uncollaborative way, the board has not listen to the community/member for the agenda which forces the members to a new vote [3] to add items to
the
agenda ... during the summer ... and Wikimania.
I hope the board will have again to "Acknowlege" the voice of the community, but I wish we did not had to go this way.
I am truly ashamed of this board,
[1] https://www.mathisbenguigui.eu/wikimedia-timeline/droitderep onse.html [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2017-July/ 088008.html [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim%C3%A9dia_France/ Assemblée_générale/septembre_2017/Points_à_ajouter_à_l'ordre_du_jour
2017-07-26 17:56 GMT+02:00 Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com:
Yes, I figured this out, thanks. Now copyediting.
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Natacha Rault n.rault@me.com
wrote:
probably me... > >> Le 26 juil. 2017 à 17:49, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com a >> > écrit
:
> >> Actually, after Catherine's mail, an English article was started
by
>> > someone > >> I can not recognize from the username. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Merzeau >> >> Cheers >> Yaroslav >> >> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Katherine Maher < >> > kmaher@wikimedia.org
> wrote: >> >> Dear Édouard and our other colleagues at Wikimédia France, >>> >>> We are sorry to hear about the passing of Mrs. Louise Merzeau. >>> >> While I
did > >> not have a chance to meet her, I understand she was an advocate
for
>>> >> the
> Commons movement and a leading academic on digital identities and >>> >> the
relationship between technology and culture. I suspect we would have >>> >> gotten > >> along well. >>> >>> Although she did not get to share her knowledge longer, we are >>> >> grateful
> for > >> the contributions she made. I have no doubt Wikimedia would have >>> >> benefited > >> greatly from her continued advocacy. >>> >>> I recognize with everything that is going on, an event like this
can
>>> quickly pass by without enough notice and tribute from all of us. >>> >> However, > >> I hope we can pause to recognize that, above all, we are people
who
>>> >> have
> come together under a shared vision for a better future. The
passion
>>> >> and
> bond that unites us are much stronger than any disagreements or >>> >> challenges. > >> Louise was a part of that vision, and we owe it to her to
recognize
>>> >> her
> passing. >>> >>> On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation, please know that she is in >>> >> our
thoughts and that the community has our condolences. >>> >>> Katherine >>> >>> PS. I encourage you to learn more about Mrs. Merzeau and her life >>> >> from
her > >> article on French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ >>> >> Louise_Merzeau > >> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >>> wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >>> >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsu >> >> bscribe>
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A few French wkipedians are not happy with the board and some of the employees. They are about 25-30% of Wikimedia France members
To be honest, 25-30% of WMFR members is quite a lot. And, don't forget, include roughly half of the Wikimedia France Board elected at the last General Assembly.
This isn't the first governance crisis in the Wikimedia movement (WMF and other chapters have certainly had them) but it is probably the biggest and most long-drawn-out.
And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and cannot be done within a chapter.
To my mind the board's "explanations" are part of the problem. Reading the statements from WMFR about the FDC process, or their emails to members or their response to the timeline - it's all about how WMFR has never been wrong about anything. All the criticism is wrong (and probably a conspiracy). WMFR's board has been doing the only thing they could possibly have done. All of this is repeated again and again.
That is a dysfunctional response to the situation. A significant part of the French Wikimedia community has lost confidence in WMFR. The Board should be working to restore that confidence, and the more it denies the problem is real, the worse the result will be.
Regards,
Chris
To be honest, 25-30% of WMFR members is quite a lot. And, don't forget, include roughly half of the Wikimedia France Board elected at the last General Assembly.
This isn't the first governance crisis in the Wikimedia movement (WMF and other chapters have certainly had them) but it is probably the biggest and most long-drawn-out.
Of course, it's quite a lot: that's why a special meeting is scheduled to discuss of all that and the biggest part of the discussion will be driven by the people who are not happy. But still, 70-75% of the members are happy with the organisation and never ask them anything, nobody tries to listen to them. We should try to include everyone, even the shy ones, even those who just work and don't consider themselves as potentiol bosses... not only the few who knows who to talk to, where to write, to have their personal wills fulfilled
And you are totally right, this is not the first crisis; this is actually the point. Every two years, some people complain and ask question about the general strategy: should the organisation grow or not, what should be the relations between employees and members, what are the main goals, etc. Then everybody work together to build a strategic plan, to take decisions ; the plan is implemented... and two years after that those who weren't happy at that time, some new members, etc. want to begin from scratch one more time. It's very hard to have a long-term strategy and developpment if there is no trust in what members have done before. And it's above all a real problem for the employees who can never be sure their job won't be at risk a few months after.
And those people refuse to acknowledge reality, even when the board explains everything, even when lawyers explains what can and
cannot be done within a chapter.
To my mind the board's "explanations" are part of the problem. Reading the statements from WMFR about the FDC process, or their emails to members or their response to the timeline - it's all about how WMFR has never been wrong about anything. All the criticism is wrong (and probably a conspiracy). WMFR's board has been doing the only thing they could possibly have done. All of this is repeated again and again.
That is a dysfunctional response to the situation. A significant part of the French Wikimedia community has lost confidence in WMFR. The Board should be working to restore that confidence, and the more it denies the problem is real, the worse the result will be.
Well, the problem is that... it's not really clear what the problem is... They always talk about "what happens", "the situation"... but it's very hard to understand what specific problem there is. I mean, to have another answer than "a gouvernance problem" and another ideas than "we should fire the director, another employee and ask the board to resign". The people organizing the next general meeting want an audit... but there have been two in a few months, and we are waiting for the conclusion of the Foundation (some people came in Paris a few weeks ago): what new can an audit find? They want to create a commission against conflits of interest... but it already exist (within the board, it can be widened, I totally agree) and some of their leaders precisely left because they wouldn't sign the conflit of interest statement! They want to reinstate not only the people whose admission have been refused but all the members who have been excluded... but no member have ever been excluded!
It's really hard to speak and be understood (once more, Anthere asks a question about something she doesn't know, about a fact; I answer to her with the very fact, and she says "I don't agree". What can you answer to that?) I think everybody counted on the Foundation mission to facilitate the dialogue, we really hope it will happen.
And anyway, I think most of the board cannot deal with the harasment anymore and will resign. This is just a terrible waste of energy, good will and work. Back to 2008... with a lot of frustration from those who gave a lot of free time and competence to the development of the chapter
R
Regards,
Chris
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2017-08-03 13:47 GMT+02:00 Rémi Mathis mathis.remi@gmail.com:
To be honest, 25-30% of WMFR members is quite a lot. And, don't forget, include roughly half of the Wikimedia France Board elected at the last General Assembly.
This isn't the first governance crisis in the Wikimedia movement (WMF and other chapters have certainly had them) but it is probably the biggest and most long-drawn-out.
Of course, it's quite a lot: that's why a special meeting is scheduled to discuss of all that and the biggest part of the discussion will be driven by the people who are not happy. But still, 70-75% of the members are happy with the organisation and never
ask them anything, nobody tries to listen to them. We should try to include
everyone, even the shy ones, even those who just work and don't consider themselves as potentiol bosses... not only the few who knows who to talk to, where to write, to have their personal wills fulfilled
No, that's plain wrong.
70-75% of members are silent, or not interested. So far, Rémi, you are the only one outside the board who supports the board.
The people complaining are ALL the active volunteers of the French Wikimedia community.
Please get things right.
Regards,
Yann
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