A number of nominations have now come in for the affiliate-selected board seats.[1]
One of the people who have put their names forward to date is Susanna Mkrtchyan of Wikimedia Armenia. In her nomination statement[2] Susanna refers to the 2014 "One Armenian, one Article" Wikipedia campaign.
The BBC reported[3] at the time that the campaign was government-supported. The related YouTube video (in Armenian with English subtitles)[9] features appeals for people to edit Wikipedia from (in order of appearance):
1. The Armenian Defense Minister, who says he's joining the "One Armenian, one Article" marathon by editing an article about the Armenian army
2. The Armenian Education and Science Minister, who says creating Wikipedia content in Armenian is part of Armenians' "duty toward our nation and country" and indicates he will personally participate too
3. The Head of Armenian Public Radio
4. An Armenian TV announcer
5. The Head of Matenadaran Archive
Now, according to Freedom House,[4] all is not well in Armenia. Corruption is widespread in government and law enforcement. The press is not free.[5] Journalists have to "contend with violence and harassment", although "Independent outlets continued to take advantage of the country’s relatively open online space."
Clearly, the Internet presently provides a platform for opposition voices that have trouble making themselves heard in conventional media, a fact that the government cannot be terribly pleased about.
Returning to Susanna's nomination statement, she says that Wikimedia Armenia has signed a contract with the "Armenian Encyclopedia Authorities" to re-use their content.
Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published encyclopedias, but the Soviet Union had the Great Soviet Encyclopedia for about sixty-five years. It was an instrument of state propaganda. Trying to shoehorn national encyclopedias modelled on the Great Soviet Encyclopedia into Wikipedia is a thought that seems to occur quite naturally to politicians in ex-Soviet states, many of whom started their political careers and held office in the days of the Soviet Union. It is a good way of exercising control over the Internet, just like the Great Soviet Encyclopedia was designed to shape intellectual life in the USSR.
According to her LinkedIn profile[7], in her professional life Susanna is a Sector Manager at the State Committee of Science, which is part of the Ministry of Education and Science of Armenia.[8]
Susanna further notes that she received an honourable mention from Jimmy Wales at Wikimania 2015's Wikipedian of the Year award, a fact duly noted at [[Wikipedia:Wikipedian of the Year]].[6]
Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not even arise.
What is different about ex-Soviet countries that makes this a good thing to do?
Andreas
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominati... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominati... [3] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28588188 [4] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/armenia [5] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/armenia [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedian_of_the_year [7] http://archive.is/kmcEs [8] http://www.scs.am/en/home [9] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not even arise.
Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ researchers.
I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member (that is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by the Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
Cheers Yaroslav
Hello,
I cannot say much about the specific case, but in general: in small countries it is not unusual that there is only one national encyclopedia, and that it is directly or indirectly published or supported by the government or an institution close to the government.
A good example is the Store Norske from Norway. http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/2.1719/kein-geld-fuer-lexika-w...
So it is not necessary to think immediately and exclusively about the Soviet Union.
Kind regards Ziko
2016-03-02 21:11 GMT+01:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru:
On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not even arise.
Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ researchers.
I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member (that is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by the Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
Cheers Yaroslav
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so now we are judging a candidate because his/her country or government ? Susana and her team are doing really really great job, I wonder how unfair a person could judge a respected wikimedian.
Mardetanha
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
I cannot say much about the specific case, but in general: in small countries it is not unusual that there is only one national encyclopedia, and that it is directly or indirectly published or supported by the government or an institution close to the government.
A good example is the Store Norske from Norway.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/2.1719/kein-geld-fuer-lexika-w...
So it is not necessary to think immediately and exclusively about the Soviet Union.
Kind regards Ziko
2016-03-02 21:11 GMT+01:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru:
On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not
even
arise.
Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
state
employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ researchers.
I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
(that
is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
the
Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
Cheers Yaroslav
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Does anybody know if Susana is a subscriber to this list? If not, Andreas, have you made any effort to make her aware of this discussion? She may have relevant info to share, and it also seems proper that she should be aware of a public discussion about her.
Ultimately, Andreas' question is (or IMO should be) about conflict of interest. Would the Armenian government and/or the State Committee of Science have expectations of Susana that are incompatible with the responsibility of a Wikimedia Trustee? Or that would be difficult to reconcile? Such questions should be asked of any candidate -- but when the employer actually has a history of Wikipedia engagement, I tend to think it's especially important to contemplate. We should be able to ask such questions and explore the answers in a non-accusatory way.
I hope Susanna can provide her thoughts (ideally, in response to a question on Meta Wiki, where it will be visible to voters, and available for translation).
Also, commentary from somebody familiar with the Armenian government and how its agencies function would be very helpful. Does anybody have expert contacts you could reach out to for more information? One recent WMF advisor comes to mind, I could reach out to her if somebody can formulate a concise question to ask. -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Ziko van Dijk zvandijk@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
I cannot say much about the specific case, but in general: in small countries it is not unusual that there is only one national encyclopedia, and that it is directly or indirectly published or supported by the government or an institution close to the government.
A good example is the Store Norske from Norway.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/2.1719/kein-geld-fuer-lexika-w...
So it is not necessary to think immediately and exclusively about the Soviet Union.
Kind regards Ziko
2016-03-02 21:11 GMT+01:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru:
On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not
even
arise.
Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
state
employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ researchers.
I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
(that
is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
the
Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
Cheers Yaroslav
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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ researchers.
I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member (that is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by the Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
Cheers Yaroslav
Yaroslav,
In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).
The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.
The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian government.
The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous. The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?
What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?
Andreas
[1] http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-w... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even had a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
Risker/Anne
On 2 March 2016 at 18:15, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who
employ
researchers.
I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
(that
is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
the
Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
Cheers Yaroslav
Yaroslav,
In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).
The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.
The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian government.
The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous. The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?
What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?
Andreas
[1]
http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-w... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia that Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
Andreas,
Unless you have specific evidence that Susanna has been specifically involved with anything untoward, you are smearing with guilt by association and creating your own chilling effect, and you would owe Susanna a retraction and apology.
Cheers, Craig Franklin
On 3 March 2016 at 09:15, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:
Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who
employ
researchers.
I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
(that
is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
the
Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
Cheers Yaroslav
Yaroslav,
In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).
The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.
The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian government.
The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous. The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?
What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?
Andreas
[1]
http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-w... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
[...]
2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even had a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
[...]
2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia that Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
Andreas,
You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
The only person that thinks that "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the fact that Susanna is Armenian.
The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small, flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting. In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time) there were and there are several avenues to criticize - also privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes - what the chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are making from nothing.
Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
Cristian
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/W... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_rou...
Cristian,
I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people in the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question has a less than stellar press freedom record.
Andreas
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Cristian Consonni kikkocristian@gmail.com wrote:
2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
[...]
2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
had
a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
[...]
2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
that
Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
Andreas,
You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
The only person that thinks that "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the fact that Susanna is Armenian.
The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small, flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting. In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time) there were and there are several avenues to criticize - also privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes - what the chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are making from nothing.
Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
Cristian
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/W... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_rou...
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2016-03-03 1:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people in the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question has a less than stellar press freedom record.
Yes, of course, but until you have any proof to link what Susanna and Wikimedia Armenia have being doing you are "which-hunting" exactly as those Soviet governments did in the past with the people that opposed them.
C
so much for "Assume good faith"
On 3 March 2016 at 08:31, Cristian Consonni kikkocristian@gmail.com wrote:
2016-03-03 1:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people
in
the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question
has
a less than stellar press freedom record.
Yes, of course, but until you have any proof to link what Susanna and Wikimedia Armenia have being doing you are "which-hunting" exactly as those Soviet governments did in the past with the people that opposed them.
C
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I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer. During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work, and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government in her country. I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic discipline. Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's work.
I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.). Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without evidence is unacceptable.
Asaf
[1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni kikkocristian@gmail.com wrote:
2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
[...]
2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
had
a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
[...]
2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
that
Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
Andreas,
You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
The only person that thinks that "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the fact that Susanna is Armenian.
The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small, flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting. In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time) there were and there are several avenues to criticize - also privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes - what the chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are making from nothing.
Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
Cristian
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/W... [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_rou...
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Asaf,
I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia Armenia.[1][2]
I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
Andreas
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer. During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work, and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government in her country. I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic discipline. Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's work.
I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.). Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without evidence is unacceptable.
Asaf
[1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni <kikkocristian@gmail.com
wrote:
2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
her.
She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
of
a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
[...]
2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
had
a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
[...]
2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that
because
she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
that
Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
Andreas,
You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
The only person that thinks that "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the fact that Susanna is Armenian.
The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small, flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting. In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time) there were and there are several avenues to criticize - also privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes - what the chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are making from nothing.
Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
Cristian
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/W...
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_rou...
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-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Asaf,
I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
Thank you.
Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia Armenia.[1][2]
I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
I think it's fair to say any contact with a government (or similarly powerful entity) is *potentially* concerning. But between potentially concerning and actually concerning, there is the all-too-crucial need for substantive evidence or cause for concern.
As has been pointed out, quite a few Wikipedians are or were part of the civil service or otherwise close to powerful people in their regimes. So long as there is no reason to suspect they are not managing their potential conflict of interest, we must assume good faith.
A.
I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes beyond Assume Good Faith. Ultimately, if appointed, a Trustee will need to disclose any Conflicts of Interest. But those disclosures, as I understand it, are not public; and waiting until the moment of appointment is less than ideal.
I believe all candidates should be asked tough questions about possible COI. This would have included me, when I ran last summer; I was asked some good questions in private, but the public questioning was not very substantive.[1] It should also apply to those appointed directly to the board -- hopefully, the board has processes to assess COI prior to appointment and required disclosure.
The traditional structure of the questioning on Meta Wiki is not especially conducive to this; because every candidate's situation is unique. I believe questions on COI should be tailored to each candidate's resume, not merely asked as an abstract question. This might be a good issue for the election committees to consider.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/Board_electio...
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Asaf,
I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
Thank you.
Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who
along
with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured
speaker
at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of
Wikimedia
Armenia.[1][2]
I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
I think it's fair to say any contact with a government (or similarly powerful entity) is *potentially* concerning. But between potentially concerning and actually concerning, there is the all-too-crucial need for substantive evidence or cause for concern.
As has been pointed out, quite a few Wikipedians are or were part of the civil service or otherwise close to powerful people in their regimes. So long as there is no reason to suspect they are not managing their potential conflict of interest, we must assume good faith.
A.
Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com:
I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes beyond Assume Good Faith.
Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith" and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of being part of a corrupt and despotic system.
Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two and draw your own conclusions.
I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much lower) second standard.
You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates. IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to back their contents.
C
Cristian, when I said I heartily endorse what Asaf said, I meant exactly that. I agree with him, and with you, that accusatory email threads without evidence are toxic, and should be avoided.
But questions about Conflict of Interest are appropriate. In a Board selection process, we do not merely Assume Good Faith, we Assess the Conditions Impacting Good Faith.
Or at least, we should.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Cristian Consonni kikkocristian@gmail.com wrote:
2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com:
I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes beyond Assume Good Faith.
Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith" and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of being part of a corrupt and despotic system.
Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two and draw your own conclusions.
I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much lower) second standard.
You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates. IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to back their contents.
C
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Speaking in general terms, I like the idea of requiring early and public disclosures of conflicts of interests that seem reasonably likely.
Also speaking in general terms, I'm aware of a number of Wikimedians in the United States and Canada who are directly employed by government organizations, and who seem to be good about managing their potential conflicts of interest. It certainly seems to me that being a government employee should, in general terms, be seen as no more or less a potential conflict than being an employee of Google or any number of other organizations that have complicated relationships with Wikimedia. Sometimes the interests of these organizations are compatible with Wikimedia, and sometimes they're not. In my experience most people who proactively disclose their affiliations are good about managing them. I would worry much more about someone who conceals a potentially troublesome association than someone who proactively discloses their associations a manner that's reasonable for someone who's in their particular role in the Wikimedia movement.
Pine
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Cristian, when I said I heartily endorse what Asaf said, I meant exactly that. I agree with him, and with you, that accusatory email threads without evidence are toxic, and should be avoided.
But questions about Conflict of Interest are appropriate. In a Board selection process, we do not merely Assume Good Faith, we Assess the Conditions Impacting Good Faith.
Or at least, we should.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Cristian Consonni <kikkocristian@gmail.com
wrote:
2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com:
I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes beyond Assume Good Faith.
Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith" and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of being part of a corrupt and despotic system.
Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two and draw your own conclusions.
I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much lower) second standard.
You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates. IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to back their contents.
C
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But is it avoidable? Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andreas Kolbe Sent: Thursday, 03 March 2016 2:37 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board
Asaf,
I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia Armenia.[1][2]
I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
Andreas
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer. During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work, and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government in her country. I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic discipline. Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's work.
I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.). Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without evidence is unacceptable.
Asaf
[1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni <kikkocristian@gmail.com
wrote:
2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
her.
She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
of
a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
[...]
2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
had
a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
[...]
2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that
because
she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
that
Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
Andreas,
You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
The only person that thinks that "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the fact that Susanna is Armenian.
The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small, flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting. In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time) there were and there are several avenues to criticize - also privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes - what the chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are making from nothing.
Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
Cristian
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_ro und2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-20 15_round_2#Wikimedia_Armenia
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-- Asaf Bartov Wikimedia Foundation http://www.wikimediafoundation.org
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! https://donate.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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for the interest of people interested in this thread, Susanna replied on wiki: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nom...
I suggest continuing the discussion there, since it is related to the current elections, and some people may not be following the list closely.
copied for your convenience: Dear Andreas,Thank you very much for the important questions that you raise.Let me first point out that Wikimedia Armenia is financially independent from the Armenian government. Organizations which currently fund us are WMF and Gulbenkian Foundation, located in Portugal. The only support that we accepted from the Armenian government is our office space which is located in a state-owned property (but not governmental building).I can ascertain that we are well aware of the corruption risks in our country and how it can have an impact on the Wikimedia movement. In fact we have had some challenges in the past, especially with a past sponsor, those are issues that we keep Wikimedia Foundation, in particular its lawyers, Asaf Bartov, Jan Bart de Vreede, Liam Wyatt updated about.So we are very cautious when cooperating with government agencies, statespeople or sponsors, this doesn't however mean that we exclude any such cooperation. "One Armenian, one article" campaign is one example of such cooperation (where different statespeople (including opposition party members) and celebrities encouraged people to edit Wikipedia). We did not notice many of these statespeople actually editing Wikipedia, but the campaign overall contributed to improve awareness about Wikipedia.As for the Soviet Encyclopedia which is free-licensed and is used mainly by novice editors, we do encourage editors to leave out outdated or politically loaded topics that may include soviet-propaganda.Finally, about your concern that if I worked for state institutions in the past: those were only scientific and research institutions. Currently I am employed as leading researcher in the Institute for Informatics and Automation Problems which is part of the National Academy of Sciences of Armenia. As for Wikimedia Armenia, I always and only worked as a volunteer (although we have paid staff).Thank you and please let me know if you have any other concern points.--SusikMkr https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:SusikMkr (talk https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SusikMkr) 14:39, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
But is it avoidable? Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Andreas Kolbe Sent: Thursday, 03 March 2016 2:37 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board
Asaf,
I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia Armenia.[1][2]
I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
Andreas
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants
officer.
During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work, and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government in her country. I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic discipline. Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts at co-optation of Wikimedia
Armenia's work.
I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.). Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without evidence is unacceptable.
Asaf
[1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni <kikkocristian@gmail.com
wrote:
2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com:
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
her.
She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
of
a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
[...]
2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
had
a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
[...]
2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan nawrich@gmail.com:
Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that
because
she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
that
Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
Andreas,
You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
The only person that thinks that "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is
you.
As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the fact that Susanna is Armenian.
The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small, flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are
suggesting.
In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time) there were and there are several avenues to criticize - also privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes - what the chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are making from nothing.
Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
Cristian
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_ro und2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-20 15_round_2#Wikimedia_Armenia
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On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote: ...
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community. She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share information about Armenia and its people with the rest of the world. I'm sure that others would get the same impression if she made a video pitch rather than just the written word.
I can be suckered by a skilled politician (though I'm more likely to get irritated!), however Susanna just came over as a terribly nice, completely genuine woman, with the type of energetic enthusiasm for open knowledge that it is a delight to encounter. This is an open election process, so if any questions were put to her through the election meta pages about possibly appearances of conflict of interest, funding etc., I have no doubt she would take them seriously and try to address them up front.[1] Try doing that, and be polite about it, I would regret her leaving the election process feeling her fingers had been burnt just for daring to put her name forward.
Links 1. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominati...
Fae
Fae,
Thanks. I've also had a conversation off-list about this with another Wikimedian whom I greatly respect, and they have shared similar impressions of Susanna with me. I truly appreciate the input.
For the record, I do sincerely regret writing "But she is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia". I hope Susanna will forgive me my rash comment.
Where does that leave us?
It is entirely possible that Susanna's interest in Wikipedia is a mere hobby, and unrelated to her long and distinguished government career. And indeed, unless she tells us otherwise, we should assume that this is so.
But we still need to account for the fact that the Armenian Minister of Education and Science and his deputy have both made appearances as featured speakers at Wikimedia Armenia events (along with similar appearances by the country's president, prime minister and minister of culture).[1][2][3]
These politicians are, at however many levels' remove, Susanna's bosses in her professional life if she is a manager at the State Committee of Science. And they cannot be unaware of her role, given that she introduced them at the events where they spoke.
So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.
There is another matter I would like to ask Susanna about. At the 2012 WikiConference in Yerevan, Susanna introduced Igor Klimko as a featured speaker, according to the event's page on Meta[1]. Klimko was then the CEO of Armenia Telephone Company ("ArmenTel"), the major provider of telephone and broadband services in Armenia (part of the VimpelCom group).
Klimko was more recently named in media reports as the prime suspect in a $500 million money laundering scandal.[4] Klimko, who has reportedly fled to Moscow,[4] claimed last week to have acted on instructions of Armenia's National Security Service.[5] The National Security Service denies that, and the case is ongoing.[5]
I would be interested in hearing from Susanna whether Klimko financially supported the Wikimedia Armenia effort, and if not, how he came to speak at the 2012 WikiConference.
A number of people have mentioned the need to "assume good faith". Let's not forget that we've had this kind of situation involving state leaders before, where people were "assuming good faith" and got burnt.[6] The sheer concentration of political leaders crowding in on the Wikimedia Armenia effort was eerily reminiscent of that situation to me. But I should not have said what I did, the way I said it, and I'm sorry.
So let's assume good faith of Susanna, but please let's also do due diligence, in as respectful and kind manner as we can muster.
I've made Susanna aware of this discussion.
Andreas
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule [3] http://www.president.am/en/press-release/item/2015/06/19/President-Serzh-Sar... [4] https://www.occrp.org/en/40-press-releases/presss-releases/4871-occrp-rise-e... [5] http://hetq.am/eng/news/65992/armentel-$500-million-swindle-employees-phone-... [6] http://www.eurasianet.org/node/72831
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote: ...
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her. She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community. She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share information about Armenia and its people with the rest of the world. I'm sure that others would get the same impression if she made a video pitch rather than just the written word.
I can be suckered by a skilled politician (though I'm more likely to get irritated!), however Susanna just came over as a terribly nice, completely genuine woman, with the type of energetic enthusiasm for open knowledge that it is a delight to encounter. This is an open election process, so if any questions were put to her through the election meta pages about possibly appearances of conflict of interest, funding etc., I have no doubt she would take them seriously and try to address them up front.[1] Try doing that, and be polite about it, I would regret her leaving the election process feeling her fingers had been burnt just for daring to put her name forward.
Links
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominati...
Fae
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Andreas,
While I understand your interest in asking these questions, I feel that Meta would be the best venue for this discussion, preferably on a page that is designed for Q&A with the Board candidates. This way, the vast majority of the questions for Board candidates can be located in the same place.
Thanks,
Pine
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Fae,
Thanks. I've also had a conversation off-list about this with another Wikimedian whom I greatly respect, and they have shared similar impressions of Susanna with me. I truly appreciate the input.
For the record, I do sincerely regret writing "But she is clearly part of a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia". I hope Susanna will forgive me my rash comment.
Where does that leave us?
It is entirely possible that Susanna's interest in Wikipedia is a mere hobby, and unrelated to her long and distinguished government career. And indeed, unless she tells us otherwise, we should assume that this is so.
But we still need to account for the fact that the Armenian Minister of Education and Science and his deputy have both made appearances as featured speakers at Wikimedia Armenia events (along with similar appearances by the country's president, prime minister and minister of culture).[1][2][3]
These politicians are, at however many levels' remove, Susanna's bosses in her professional life if she is a manager at the State Committee of Science. And they cannot be unaware of her role, given that she introduced them at the events where they spoke.
So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.
There is another matter I would like to ask Susanna about. At the 2012 WikiConference in Yerevan, Susanna introduced Igor Klimko as a featured speaker, according to the event's page on Meta[1]. Klimko was then the CEO of Armenia Telephone Company ("ArmenTel"), the major provider of telephone and broadband services in Armenia (part of the VimpelCom group).
Klimko was more recently named in media reports as the prime suspect in a $500 million money laundering scandal.[4] Klimko, who has reportedly fled to Moscow,[4] claimed last week to have acted on instructions of Armenia's National Security Service.[5] The National Security Service denies that, and the case is ongoing.[5]
I would be interested in hearing from Susanna whether Klimko financially supported the Wikimedia Armenia effort, and if not, how he came to speak at the 2012 WikiConference.
A number of people have mentioned the need to "assume good faith". Let's not forget that we've had this kind of situation involving state leaders before, where people were "assuming good faith" and got burnt.[6] The sheer concentration of political leaders crowding in on the Wikimedia Armenia effort was eerily reminiscent of that situation to me. But I should not have said what I did, the way I said it, and I'm sorry.
So let's assume good faith of Susanna, but please let's also do due diligence, in as respectful and kind manner as we can muster.
I've made Susanna aware of this discussion.
Andreas
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule [3]
http://www.president.am/en/press-release/item/2015/06/19/President-Serzh-Sar... [4]
https://www.occrp.org/en/40-press-releases/presss-releases/4871-occrp-rise-e... [5]
http://hetq.am/eng/news/65992/armentel-$500-million-swindle-employees-phone-... [6] http://www.eurasianet.org/node/72831
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote: ...
I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
her.
She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
of
a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community. She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share information about Armenia and its people with the rest of the world. I'm sure that others would get the same impression if she made a video pitch rather than just the written word.
I can be suckered by a skilled politician (though I'm more likely to get irritated!), however Susanna just came over as a terribly nice, completely genuine woman, with the type of energetic enthusiasm for open knowledge that it is a delight to encounter. This is an open election process, so if any questions were put to her through the election meta pages about possibly appearances of conflict of interest, funding etc., I have no doubt she would take them seriously and try to address them up front.[1] Try doing that, and be polite about it, I would regret her leaving the election process feeling her fingers had been burnt just for daring to put her name forward.
Links
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominati...
Fae
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On 3 March 2016 at 06:02, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.
Need I remind you that it was a french wikipedian (Rémi Mathis) that was threatened with arrest over the "Station hertzienne militaire de Pierre-sur-Haute" article?
Your obsession with political leaders suggests a poor understanding of potential threats. For people at the top of the system to go after someone several levels down would make them look foolish. For intelligence agencies I doubt there is one on the planet that hasn't applied some thought to the matter. Threats of arrest are of course crude but always an option. Blackmail, bribery, threats to employment (lets face it how many of us work for a company without some government contracts) even difficulties with boarder control or a sudden tax audit. There are so many options.
Unless you are going to demand a board composed entirely of independently wealthy individuals with no family or social ties to any given countries and with assets and wealth sufficiently diversified to make seizure and freezes ineffectively then you are going to have to accept that the board (and admins for that matter) is always going to be vulnerable to state level actors.
There is another matter I would like to ask Susanna about.
So why haven't you?
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.
Probably easy because board meetings are confidential so board members under duress can always claim they tried to do whatever they were told to but got voted down?
But that is certainly something to keep in mind when considering public video streams of board meetings and similar ideas: that would make it possible to put pressure on individual board members to act / not act in specific ways.
On 2 March 2016 at 19:58, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published encyclopedias,
Wales is not a western country?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_of_Wales
If we had the US Secretary of Defense writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army,
Who exactly do you think writes our articles about US military subjects?
or had employees of the German government running Wikimedia Deutschland,
Both of User:Juergen.friedrich's employers are public universities.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:35 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 2 March 2016 at 19:58, Andreas Kolbe jayen466@gmail.com wrote:
Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published encyclopedias,
Wales is not a western country?
https://en.wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_of_Wales
What about states inside of Western countries?
http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/content/about-eoa
Really, the insinuations behind this thread are just absurd. We are to now assume that all agendas are nefarious? Because everyone has one, even you, Andreas, in posting this.
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