I believe Walter is right when he contradicts that there is a group of admins that act against the wishes of the community. When the first plans of a Dutch Wikimedia organisation were made I contributed to the discussions on the Dutch Wikimedia website and I went to a (the first?) meeting of people who were interested. It soon occurred to me that some people had very strong opinions on forming an organisation, and there was not many room for dissident opinions. I got the impression that many people thought that the organisation could/should have a say about the Dutch Wikipedia. I didn't like the way some people (who were intent on becoming a board member) seemed to force their opinion on others, so I backed out of the development of the organisation. I believe that the way dissident opinions were handled is now an important source of the fear of many Dutch Wikipedians that the Dutch foundation and association (but mostly the foundation, since that is the least democratic) will not listen to the Dutch community.
-Fruggo
Walter Vermeir schreef:
I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators
take
decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some
admin
power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is
that [cut]
The Dutch Wikipedia is not paradise. But you give the impression that there is a group of admins on the Dutch Wikipedia who are behaving strongly against the wishes of the community. And that those are now also controlling those new chapters.
This is highly incorrect.
Fruggo wrote:
I believe Walter is right when he contradicts that there is a group of admins that act against the wishes of the community. When the first plans of a Dutch Wikimedia organisation were made I contributed to the discussions on the Dutch Wikimedia website and I went to a (the first?) meeting of people who were interested. It soon occurred to me that some people had very strong opinions on forming an organisation, and there was not many room for dissident opinions. I got the impression that many people thought that the organisation could/should have a say about the Dutch Wikipedia. I didn't like the way some people (who were intent on becoming a board member) seemed to force their opinion on others, so I backed out of the development of the organisation. I believe that the way dissident opinions were handled is now an important source of the fear of many Dutch Wikipedians that the Dutch foundation and association (but mostly the foundation, since that is the least democratic) will not listen to the Dutch community.
-Fruggo
I totally agree with Fruggo here.
Waerth/Walter van Kalken
i agree with walter too.
fruggo is rightly referring to the fact that unfortunately, in the beginning of the formation of the dutch chapter, there have been attempts by two dutch wikipedians (both currently no member of the boards) to create a foundation only, without any involvment of the dutch communities. both ronald and i recently found out that both of us had been asked to participate in this. at the time, in fact both of us independently (since we weren't informed about attempts to persuade the other), refused to do so, i might as well say: literally prevented this.
in 5 meetings, see http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Ontmoeten/Plaatsgevonden the ideas concerning the founding of the dutch chapter took their final form. these meetings have been open to everyone and have been announced well before they actually took place, and were each attended by various wikians, both from holland and from belgium. it was finally agreed upon by those present, that 2 organizations would suit the dutch situation best, and would give maximum possibilities of being active and to apply for funding in holland; both an association (see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_VWN_%28en%29 and a foundation, see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_SWN_%28en%29 were founded - see also http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten/Reglement_FAQ, translation not complete yet).
since the creation of these, negative comments have bursted from a limited number of wikipedians, rather loudly advocating their mistrust in the chapter and the people involved. given the rapidity of their new comments, in combination with the spreading of false rumours and strange notions (for example, someone falsely stated that the statutes have never been published - i provided the links here, histories of, if necessary also: earlier, dutch versions are available thanks to the mediawiki software; another comment was that any sysop holding a position in the chapter would have a position with too much power, and conflicting interests), it actually gives the impression of a concerted action, since end of march...
maybe fruggo is right in suggesting that the current board and chapter is suffering from the mistrust that those two people that have tried to organize a chapter before, without any involvement or even knowledge thereof by the dutch communities, has left behind.
only solid information can replace rumours however, so we are currently working at updating nl.wikimedia.org, trusting that everyone, at least the imho current majority of dutch people that support and trust the chapter, and the people having organized it, will stay informed.
oscar
On 4/19/06, Fruggo fruggo@gmail.com wrote:
I believe Walter is right when he contradicts that there is a group of admins that act against the wishes of the community. When the first plans of a Dutch Wikimedia organisation were made I contributed to the discussions on the Dutch Wikimedia website and I went to a (the first?) meeting of people who were interested. It soon occurred to me that some people had very strong opinions on forming an organisation, and there was not many room for dissident opinions. I got the impression that many people thought that the organisation could/should have a say about the Dutch Wikipedia. I didn't like the way some people (who were intent on becoming a board member) seemed to force their opinion on others, so I backed out of the development of the organisation. I believe that the way dissident opinions were handled is now an important source of the fear of many Dutch Wikipedians that the Dutch foundation and association (but mostly the foundation, since that is the least democratic) will not listen to the Dutch community.
-Fruggo
Walter Vermeir schreef:
I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch
moderators
take
decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some
admin
power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is
that [cut]
The Dutch Wikipedia is not paradise. But you give the impression that there is a group of admins on the Dutch Wikipedia who are behaving strongly against the wishes of the community. And that those are now also controlling those new chapters.
This is highly incorrect.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 24-apr-2006, at 10:22, oscar wrote: in 5 meetings, see http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Ontmoeten/Plaatsgevonden the ideas concerning the founding of the dutch chapter took their final form. these meetings have been open to everyone and have been announced well before they actually took place, and were each attended by various wikians, both from holland and from belgium. it was finally agreed upon by those present, that 2 organizations would suit the dutch situation best, and would give maximum possibilities of being active and to apply for funding in holland; both an association (see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_VWN_%28en%29 and a foundation, see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_SWN_%28en%29 were founded - see also http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten/Reglement_FAQ, translation not complete yet).
since the creation of these, negative comments have bursted from a limited number of wikipedians, rather loudly advocating their mistrust in the chapter and the people involved.
etc. etc. etc.
I am afraid Oscar is misleading the members of this list again.
1) At first GerardM wanted a Dutch foundation with raising money for the Florida based foundation as its sole purpose. However, stirred by a remark by Jimbo, a lot of Dutch users wanted an organization that had social aspects as well and could organize meetings and engage in other activities, all democratically controlled. For that a Dutch association was better. It is more democratic, and would therefore suit us better, as the wiki's are more or less democratic too. On the other hand RonaldB had this idea that a foundation would be better at raising money.
At the meeting I attended (November 11th, 2005) RonaldB kept pushing and pushing his idea until everybody got bored, and we finally gave in and decided there would be a Dutch association, as was the wish of a majority of users, *plus* a Dutch foundation as was the wish of less than a handful of users. The foundation *would be created by the association*, ensuring a somewhat democratic process. Oscar was very much in favor of that.
Now this foundation apparently has no longer the sole purpose of raising money. It will be the main organization, together with a toothless and money lacking association for the social aspects. The interaction of the two organizations is unclear to me, but apparently the association will be more or less at the mercy - at least financially speaking - of the foundation. As this is not what the Dutch users intended, a lot of them - not just a small group as Oscar is suggesting here - feel betrayed.
2) Also the meetings were not all that open. For instance: the meeting after the one I attended would be for the new board-members only. At the wish of one of them they also decided in a split-second that they would constitute themselves out of a group of would-be board-members, *without an election or other democratic process*. As I felt me being in a board together with GerardM would probably be not a good idea (Muijz winks at Jimbo), I decided to quit the process there. Much to my surprise I later on discovered there had been several meetings after that one, and RonaldB had pushed there his idea of creating a foundation *without* any democratic procedure at all. (And RonaldB got his undemocratic way, again.)
To me the whole affair is a classic example of board-members not listening to the community they are to represent. They rather feel the users should listen to them. (!)
Returning the complaints by simply accusing the Dutch community, only leads to more mistrust and more complaints - as always. And the pure speculations of a board member about the nature of the complaints, and about concerted action - as far as I am aware of there is none - won't stop those either.
What also did not help the process was all information being put on a special wiki and to be discussed solely *there*. The reason being that Media-NL was and should not be limited to the Pedia alone. While this is theoretically true, it only served as an extra barrier between the new board and the users. The Dutch community is simply too small for a lot of wiki's; our WikiNews for instance is more or less braindead and the other projects don't flourish either. De facto, Wikipedia-NL is the only flourishing community here. There probably would have been less complaints and less mistrust had the Dutch board-members not so strictly adhered to their rules - even refusing to discuss matters at the vilage-pump of Wikipedia-NL.
+++ Muijz
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