Because it hasn't been mentioned by anybody yet, I wanted to point out that #wikipedia-en-help (formerly #wikipedia-bootcamp) is the perfect channel for new Wikipedians who need help (hence the name).
While this channel does, for some reason, seem to be forgotten by the mainstream Wikipedia IRC community (which may or may not be a bad thing), it is extremely well-advertised on the Help desk, on the New Contributors' Help Page, and on {{helpme}} messages. It is also served by Bjelleklang's Java IRC client on the toolserver (again very well-advertised in the pages quoted above).
Users in the channel are on the most part very friendly towards newbies, and even basic questions are bound to get responses from one or more helpers within seconds.
While I do not exactly condone the idea of compartmentalizing IRC channels for particular purposes (especially with channels that have seemingly similar topics, like #wikipedia, #wikipedia-social, and #wikimedia-social), #wikipedia-en-help *is* a safe haven for newbies where they can get help without getting ignored (or even worse, being told that they are in The Wrong Channel) by the masses of seasoned yet not-newbie-oriented Wikipedians.
So if you do find a newbie in need of help, or if there are any opportunities where you recommend a channel for a newbie in need of help, please don't forget #wikipedia-en-help.
Cheers,
Tangotango
On Jun 17, 2007, at 6:47 AM, Gurch wrote:
Yes, we can move to #wikipedia-social or #wikipedia-en as appropriate, but Mark is adamant that newcomers should be sent to #wikipedia for help. Until now such help has reliably been delievered within seconds by experienced and knowledgable users. But they're not there to help people; they're there to discuss the project (usually the English-language edition) and socialize. No help will be forthcoming if the channel is empty. (Why wouldn't I just idle there? The same reason I don't idle in #wikimedia-admin or read the English Wikipedia mailing list: nothing useful ever happens).
Tangotango wrote:
Because it hasn't been mentioned by anybody yet, I wanted to point out that #wikipedia-en-help (formerly #wikipedia-bootcamp) is the perfect channel for new Wikipedians who need help (hence the name).
While this channel does, for some reason, seem to be forgotten by the mainstream Wikipedia IRC community (which may or may not be a bad thing), it is extremely well-advertised on the Help desk, on the New Contributors' Help Page, and on {{helpme}} messages. It is also served by Bjelleklang's Java IRC client on the toolserver (again very well-advertised in the pages quoted above).
Users in the channel are on the most part very friendly towards newbies, and even basic questions are bound to get responses from one or more helpers within seconds.
While I do not exactly condone the idea of compartmentalizing IRC channels for particular purposes (especially with channels that have seemingly similar topics, like #wikipedia, #wikipedia-social, and #wikimedia-social), #wikipedia-en-help *is* a safe haven for newbies where they can get help without getting ignored (or even worse, being told that they are in The Wrong Channel) by the masses of seasoned yet not-newbie-oriented Wikipedians.
So if you do find a newbie in need of help, or if there are any opportunities where you recommend a channel for a newbie in need of help, please don't forget #wikipedia-en-help.
Cheers,
Tangotango
I referred to that channel (in fact both names, I had forgotten they were the same thing) in discussion with Mark earlier, and I think I mentioned it in passing here. It would appear that Sean and Mark wish for #wikipedia to replace those channels (how they intend to do that, I am not entirely sure).
I must reiterate that in the past, newcomers in #wikipedia *have* generally recieved useful help quickly, and the only times they are usually referred to another channel is if they specifically request it, don't seem to have too good a grasp of English (in which case one of the language-edition-specific channels is likely to be of more use), or want to discuss a project other than Wikipedia.
It is *very rare* to see a new user with an honest question ignored in #wikipedia. (If anything, some people are too helpful, and try to act helpfully toward obvious trolls, which isn't particularly useful).
That's not to say I don't agree with the need for a dedicated help channel, because I do. #wikipedia-en-help seems to be used by the same people who answer helpdesk requests, and I'm sure they are every bit as good - and probably better - at answering questions as the rest of us. What they think of the new ops' intention to make #wikipedia into the "help channel", I'm not sure.
I should also reiterate that #wikipedia-social is a completely new channel that Mark and Sean have just created, with the intention of removing off-topic conversation from #wikipedia altogether. So I wouldn't agree tha thte two channels have "seemingly similar topics".
Mark now tells me he's gone on holiday and left Dmcdevit in charge, and that he no longer has any control over anything. Much as I respect Dmcdevit, I fear this may lead to yet another interpretion of the new rules, and only add to the confusion.
- Gurch
It was known that Mark was going on holiday which is one of the reasons we wanted a deputy at this early stage. I totally understand your concerns about multiple agendas here, which is why I'm sticking around quite heavily to help everyone.
Our aim is not to make #wikipedia a help-only channel, and the idea is to definately keep -en-help as it is. I think though -en-help is very much a channel for new users, and #wikipedia can be for more complex stuff. However, I'm not saying new users shouldn't be welcomed and helped in #wikipedia because the other thing is the help bots report to -en-help, which is one of the main reasons it exists.
Also, #wikipedia-social is for situations where you say to yourself "hmm, what did other people think of that film I just watched?" rather than "hmm, I wonder if someguy has been busy lately, his e-mails are being replied to slowly" which would be fine in #wikipedia, if you see what I mean.
It's important to remember that the guidelines are not called rules because things like this are so hard to define. We're allowing some flexibility in this area with their enforcement.
Sean
On 17/06/07, Gurch matthew.britton@btinternet.com wrote:
Tangotango wrote:
Because it hasn't been mentioned by anybody yet, I wanted to point out that #wikipedia-en-help (formerly #wikipedia-bootcamp) is the perfect channel for new Wikipedians who need help (hence the name).
While this channel does, for some reason, seem to be forgotten by the mainstream Wikipedia IRC community (which may or may not be a bad thing), it is extremely well-advertised on the Help desk, on the New Contributors' Help Page, and on {{helpme}} messages. It is also served by Bjelleklang's Java IRC client on the toolserver (again very well-advertised in the pages quoted above).
Users in the channel are on the most part very friendly towards newbies, and even basic questions are bound to get responses from one or more helpers within seconds.
While I do not exactly condone the idea of compartmentalizing IRC channels for particular purposes (especially with channels that have seemingly similar topics, like #wikipedia, #wikipedia-social, and #wikimedia-social), #wikipedia-en-help *is* a safe haven for newbies where they can get help without getting ignored (or even worse, being told that they are in The Wrong Channel) by the masses of seasoned yet not-newbie-oriented Wikipedians.
So if you do find a newbie in need of help, or if there are any opportunities where you recommend a channel for a newbie in need of help, please don't forget #wikipedia-en-help.
Cheers,
Tangotango
I referred to that channel (in fact both names, I had forgotten they were the same thing) in discussion with Mark earlier, and I think I mentioned it in passing here. It would appear that Sean and Mark wish for #wikipedia to replace those channels (how they intend to do that, I am not entirely sure).
I must reiterate that in the past, newcomers in #wikipedia *have* generally recieved useful help quickly, and the only times they are usually referred to another channel is if they specifically request it, don't seem to have too good a grasp of English (in which case one of the language-edition-specific channels is likely to be of more use), or want to discuss a project other than Wikipedia.
It is *very rare* to see a new user with an honest question ignored in #wikipedia. (If anything, some people are too helpful, and try to act helpfully toward obvious trolls, which isn't particularly useful).
That's not to say I don't agree with the need for a dedicated help channel, because I do. #wikipedia-en-help seems to be used by the same people who answer helpdesk requests, and I'm sure they are every bit as good - and probably better - at answering questions as the rest of us. What they think of the new ops' intention to make #wikipedia into the "help channel", I'm not sure.
I should also reiterate that #wikipedia-social is a completely new channel that Mark and Sean have just created, with the intention of removing off-topic conversation from #wikipedia altogether. So I wouldn't agree tha thte two channels have "seemingly similar topics".
Mark now tells me he's gone on holiday and left Dmcdevit in charge, and that he no longer has any control over anything. Much as I respect Dmcdevit, I fear this may lead to yet another interpretion of the new rules, and only add to the confusion.
- Gurch
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
A large part of the chat in #wikipedia is (or has been) politics and popular culture (e.g. family guy). As these topics are covered by Wikipedia, and the articles often quoted in discussions, can you state clearly how such conversations will be handled, as I am confused about this. Please realise that #wikipedia-social will not be popular -- It's rarely possible to have multiple people agree to to move to a different channel, especially mid-conversation. Thanks.
Peter Halasz user:pengo
On 6/17/07, Sean Whitton sean@silentflame.com wrote:
It was known that Mark was going on holiday which is one of the reasons we wanted a deputy at this early stage. I totally understand your concerns about multiple agendas here, which is why I'm sticking around quite heavily to help everyone.
Our aim is not to make #wikipedia a help-only channel, and the idea is to definately keep -en-help as it is. I think though -en-help is very much a channel for new users, and #wikipedia can be for more complex stuff. However, I'm not saying new users shouldn't be welcomed and helped in #wikipedia because the other thing is the help bots report to -en-help, which is one of the main reasons it exists.
Also, #wikipedia-social is for situations where you say to yourself "hmm, what did other people think of that film I just watched?" rather than "hmm, I wonder if someguy has been busy lately, his e-mails are being replied to slowly" which would be fine in #wikipedia, if you see what I mean.
It's important to remember that the guidelines are not called rules because things like this are so hard to define. We're allowing some flexibility in this area with their enforcement.
Sean
On 17/06/07, Gurch matthew.britton@btinternet.com wrote:
Tangotango wrote:
Because it hasn't been mentioned by anybody yet, I wanted to point out that #wikipedia-en-help (formerly #wikipedia-bootcamp) is the perfect channel for new Wikipedians who need help (hence the name).
While this channel does, for some reason, seem to be forgotten by the mainstream Wikipedia IRC community (which may or may not be a bad thing), it is extremely well-advertised on the Help desk, on the New Contributors' Help Page, and on {{helpme}} messages. It is also served by Bjelleklang's Java IRC client on the toolserver (again very well-advertised in the pages quoted above).
Users in the channel are on the most part very friendly towards newbies, and even basic questions are bound to get responses from one or more helpers within seconds.
While I do not exactly condone the idea of compartmentalizing IRC channels for particular purposes (especially with channels that have seemingly similar topics, like #wikipedia, #wikipedia-social, and #wikimedia-social), #wikipedia-en-help *is* a safe haven for newbies where they can get help without getting ignored (or even worse, being told that they are in The Wrong Channel) by the masses of seasoned yet not-newbie-oriented Wikipedians.
So if you do find a newbie in need of help, or if there are any opportunities where you recommend a channel for a newbie in need of help, please don't forget #wikipedia-en-help.
Cheers,
Tangotango
I referred to that channel (in fact both names, I had forgotten they were the same thing) in discussion with Mark earlier, and I think I mentioned it in passing here. It would appear that Sean and Mark wish for #wikipedia to replace those channels (how they intend to do that, I am not entirely sure).
I must reiterate that in the past, newcomers in #wikipedia *have* generally recieved useful help quickly, and the only times they are usually referred to another channel is if they specifically request it, don't seem to have too good a grasp of English (in which case one of the language-edition-specific channels is likely to be of more use), or want to discuss a project other than Wikipedia.
It is *very rare* to see a new user with an honest question ignored in #wikipedia. (If anything, some people are too helpful, and try to act helpfully toward obvious trolls, which isn't particularly useful).
That's not to say I don't agree with the need for a dedicated help channel, because I do. #wikipedia-en-help seems to be used by the same people who answer helpdesk requests, and I'm sure they are every bit as good - and probably better - at answering questions as the rest of us. What they think of the new ops' intention to make #wikipedia into the "help channel", I'm not sure.
I should also reiterate that #wikipedia-social is a completely new channel that Mark and Sean have just created, with the intention of removing off-topic conversation from #wikipedia altogether. So I wouldn't agree tha thte two channels have "seemingly similar topics".
Mark now tells me he's gone on holiday and left Dmcdevit in charge, and that he no longer has any control over anything. Much as I respect Dmcdevit, I fear this may lead to yet another interpretion of the new rules, and only add to the confusion.
- Gurch
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- —Sean Whitton (seanw) sean@silentflame.com http://seanwhitton.com/
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I agree that -social will not immeadiately be popular. However, I believe it will grow to be so: #wikimedia-social (the old one) was split off when those in it were asked (nothing to do with me) to keep #wikipedia more on-topic and it now has a close community. We can create that too.
I do see what you mean about politics and popular culture. Thing is, this can get far more than just the Wikipedia articles. When something starts as a result of the articles and is mainly about them, fair enough. If you have a situation where someone says "Hey, let's discuss xyz politician, he has a Wikipedia article" then that isn't appropriate.
Sean
On 17/06/07, Peter Halasz email@pengo.org wrote:
A large part of the chat in #wikipedia is (or has been) politics and popular culture (e.g. family guy). As these topics are covered by Wikipedia, and the articles often quoted in discussions, can you state clearly how such conversations will be handled, as I am confused about this. Please realise that #wikipedia-social will not be popular -- It's rarely possible to have multiple people agree to to move to a different channel, especially mid-conversation. Thanks.
Peter Halasz user:pengo
On 6/17/07, Sean Whitton sean@silentflame.com wrote:
It was known that Mark was going on holiday which is one of the reasons we wanted a deputy at this early stage. I totally understand your concerns about multiple agendas here, which is why I'm sticking around quite heavily to help everyone.
Our aim is not to make #wikipedia a help-only channel, and the idea is to definately keep -en-help as it is. I think though -en-help is very much a channel for new users, and #wikipedia can be for more complex stuff. However, I'm not saying new users shouldn't be welcomed and helped in #wikipedia because the other thing is the help bots report to -en-help, which is one of the main reasons it exists.
Also, #wikipedia-social is for situations where you say to yourself "hmm, what did other people think of that film I just watched?" rather than "hmm, I wonder if someguy has been busy lately, his e-mails are being replied to slowly" which would be fine in #wikipedia, if you see what I mean.
It's important to remember that the guidelines are not called rules because things like this are so hard to define. We're allowing some flexibility in this area with their enforcement.
Sean
On 17/06/07, Gurch matthew.britton@btinternet.com wrote:
Tangotango wrote:
Because it hasn't been mentioned by anybody yet, I wanted to point out that #wikipedia-en-help (formerly #wikipedia-bootcamp) is the perfect channel for new Wikipedians who need help (hence the name).
While this channel does, for some reason, seem to be forgotten by the mainstream Wikipedia IRC community (which may or may not be a bad thing), it is extremely well-advertised on the Help desk, on the New Contributors' Help Page, and on {{helpme}} messages. It is also served by Bjelleklang's Java IRC client on the toolserver (again very well-advertised in the pages quoted above).
Users in the channel are on the most part very friendly towards newbies, and even basic questions are bound to get responses from one or more helpers within seconds.
While I do not exactly condone the idea of compartmentalizing IRC channels for particular purposes (especially with channels that have seemingly similar topics, like #wikipedia, #wikipedia-social, and #wikimedia-social), #wikipedia-en-help *is* a safe haven for newbies where they can get help without getting ignored (or even worse, being told that they are in The Wrong Channel) by the masses of seasoned yet not-newbie-oriented Wikipedians.
So if you do find a newbie in need of help, or if there are any opportunities where you recommend a channel for a newbie in need of help, please don't forget #wikipedia-en-help.
Cheers,
Tangotango
I referred to that channel (in fact both names, I had forgotten they were the same thing) in discussion with Mark earlier, and I think I mentioned it in passing here. It would appear that Sean and Mark wish for #wikipedia to replace those channels (how they intend to do that, I am not entirely sure).
I must reiterate that in the past, newcomers in #wikipedia *have* generally recieved useful help quickly, and the only times they are usually referred to another channel is if they specifically request it, don't seem to have too good a grasp of English (in which case one of the language-edition-specific channels is likely to be of more use), or want to discuss a project other than Wikipedia.
It is *very rare* to see a new user with an honest question ignored in #wikipedia. (If anything, some people are too helpful, and try to act helpfully toward obvious trolls, which isn't particularly useful).
That's not to say I don't agree with the need for a dedicated help channel, because I do. #wikipedia-en-help seems to be used by the same people who answer helpdesk requests, and I'm sure they are every bit as good - and probably better - at answering questions as the rest of us. What they think of the new ops' intention to make #wikipedia into the "help channel", I'm not sure.
I should also reiterate that #wikipedia-social is a completely new channel that Mark and Sean have just created, with the intention of removing off-topic conversation from #wikipedia altogether. So I wouldn't agree tha thte two channels have "seemingly similar topics".
Mark now tells me he's gone on holiday and left Dmcdevit in charge, and that he no longer has any control over anything. Much as I respect Dmcdevit, I fear this may lead to yet another interpretion of the new rules, and only add to the confusion.
- Gurch
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- —Sean Whitton (seanw) sean@silentflame.com http://seanwhitton.com/
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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