Hi everyone,
On July 11th at the next WMF Metrics & Activities meeting, myself, Erik Möller, Howie Fung, Maryana Pinchuk, and Dario Taraborelli are going to deliver a short update on the state of Wikimedia editor communities. (For those not familiar: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Metrics_and_activities_meetings)
This is the beginning of the new fiscal year for the WMF, and we'd like to use this time to recap what we know about the decline or growth of Wikimedia communities. We're focusing on the following set of questions...
* Are Wikimedia projects as a whole in decline? * Is English Wikipedia in decline? * Which WMF projects have been successful in driving growth? * Which non-WMF trends have driven growth (e.g. community projects)? * How does data/measurement enable us to drive growth? * Which future changes are expected to drive growth?
I'm reaching out to this list on behalf of the team, so that we can get a list of the non-WMF projects that have had a measurable impact on the size or diversity of Wikimedia projects.
One obvious example that comes to mind is Wiki Loves Monuments. Others are the Wikipedia Challenge in Kiswahili and Setswana, and edit-a-thons, such as this year's fashion edit-a-thon put together by Wikimedia Sverige.
What am I missing from this list?
Steven Walling, 23/06/2013 01:34:
One obvious example that comes to mind is Wiki Loves Monuments. Others are the Wikipedia Challenge in Kiswahili and Setswana, and edit-a-thons, such as this year's fashion edit-a-thon put together by Wikimedia Sverige.
What am I missing from this list?
I don't know, maaaaaaaany things. 1) I'm confused: first you ask about community initiatives then you list activities by chapters and the like. "Community initiative" makes me think of edit drives, custom tools and scripts, processes, guidelines, configurations. 2) Are you interested in last year or all our history? 3) Is it really impossible to look for the impact on the statistics (assuming you're speaking of eiting activity) and then ask what caused the impact? How much big but indetected/undetectable impact is there? (There must be contrasting forces for that.) Are you interested in impact that can't be even seen in statistics?
Nemo
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
- I'm confused: first you ask about community initiatives then you list
activities by chapters and the like. "Community initiative" makes me think of edit drives, custom tools and scripts, processes, guidelines, configurations.
Sorry for the confusion. I'm open to hearing about any non-WMF activity, but I assumed that people would be most knowledgeable about initiatives that came from chapters or other parts of the community.
- Are you interested in last year or all our history?
Let's say since about 2011, with more recent being of primary interest.
- Is it really impossible to look for the impact on the statistics
(assuming you're speaking of eiting activity) and then ask what caused the impact? How much big but indetected/undetectable impact is there? (There must be contrasting forces for that.) Are you interested in impact that can't be even seen in statistics?
We're also looking at which projects are growing, so as you say, looking at the stats and then asking what caused it. If you are aware of a editor recruitment or retention activity that measured, I'd also be interested in hearing about that, even if it didn't necessarily make some kind of visible jump in the total active editors of a project.
Steven
P.S. Thanks to the folks who reached out off-list with examples.
Briefly, from the train (so no links):
1. The Wikipedia Challenge competitions were not community initiatives; they were Google initiatives.
2. Agree with Nemo about tools' importance.
3. I'd call out the Tamil Wikipedia Media Contest: great return on very modest investment (of funds); and the Malayalam WikiSangaMotsavam, a series of community and outreach events around a big community gathering, that correlates with a noticeable rise in active editors in MLWP. Both are community initiatives supported by WMF grants.
A. On Jun 25, 2013 11:05 AM, "Steven Walling" steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
- I'm confused: first you ask about community initiatives then you list
activities by chapters and the like. "Community initiative" makes me
think
of edit drives, custom tools and scripts, processes, guidelines, configurations.
Sorry for the confusion. I'm open to hearing about any non-WMF activity, but I assumed that people would be most knowledgeable about initiatives that came from chapters or other parts of the community.
- Are you interested in last year or all our history?
Let's say since about 2011, with more recent being of primary interest.
- Is it really impossible to look for the impact on the statistics
(assuming you're speaking of eiting activity) and then ask what caused
the
impact? How much big but indetected/undetectable impact is there? (There must be contrasting forces for that.) Are you interested in impact that can't be even seen in statistics?
We're also looking at which projects are growing, so as you say, looking at the stats and then asking what caused it. If you are aware of a editor recruitment or retention activity that measured, I'd also be interested in hearing about that, even if it didn't necessarily make some kind of visible jump in the total active editors of a project.
Steven
P.S. Thanks to the folks who reached out off-list with examples. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Briefly, from the train (so no links):
- The Wikipedia Challenge competitions were not community initiatives;
they were Google initiatives.
Agree with Nemo about tools' importance.
I'd call out the Tamil Wikipedia Media Contest: great return on very
modest investment (of funds); and the Malayalam WikiSangaMotsavam, a series of community and outreach events around a big community gathering, that correlates with a noticeable rise in active editors in MLWP. Both are community initiatives supported by WMF grants.
I'm currently not on a train, so here are two links: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/04/20/postcard-from-the-tamil-community/ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WikiSangamotsavam_2012/Malayalam_Wiki...
A. On Jun 25, 2013 11:05 AM, "Steven Walling" steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
- I'm confused: first you ask about community initiatives then you list
activities by chapters and the like. "Community initiative" makes me
think
of edit drives, custom tools and scripts, processes, guidelines, configurations.
Sorry for the confusion. I'm open to hearing about any non-WMF activity, but I assumed that people would be most knowledgeable about initiatives that came from chapters or other parts of the community.
- Are you interested in last year or all our history?
Let's say since about 2011, with more recent being of primary interest.
- Is it really impossible to look for the impact on the statistics
(assuming you're speaking of eiting activity) and then ask what caused
the
impact? How much big but indetected/undetectable impact is there? (There must be contrasting forces for that.) Are you interested in impact that can't be even seen in statistics?
We're also looking at which projects are growing, so as you say, looking at the stats and then asking what caused it. If you are aware of a editor recruitment or retention activity that measured, I'd also be interested in hearing about that, even if it didn't necessarily make some kind of visible jump in the total active editors of a project.
Steven
P.S. Thanks to the folks who reached out off-list with examples. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
The recent community initiative with the highest impact I can think of is surely what Platonides and other members of the global (technical) community did on pt.wiki. Platonides noticed a configuration error on pt.wiki: CAPTCHA was required for all edits since 2008. The error was fixed in April. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/41745
Fresh stats produced by the WMF show that in May and June this produced a decrease of overall vandalism (or rather, of reverted edits) with a shocking +58 % increase of productive edits by IPs and +23 % for registered users. It seems pt.wiki may see the end of the decline after many years. :) https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Usu%C3%A1rio(a):HAndrade_(WMF)/Pesquisa_Vandalismo/Segunda_Fase&oldid=36301585
Discussion is ongoing on how pt.wiki will address this growth. Part of the community may think that "nao estamos preparados para crescer". https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Wikip%C3%A9dia/Reuni%C3%B5es/Reuni%C3%A3o_IRC_21-06-2013
Nemo
Wait - removing the captchas lead to a decrease of reverted edits in terms of absolute numbers? Woot? Anyone has an explanation for that?
2013/7/5 Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com
The recent community initiative with the highest impact I can think of is surely what Platonides and other members of the global (technical) community did on pt.wiki. Platonides noticed a configuration error on pt.wiki: CAPTCHA was required for all edits since 2008. The error was fixed in April. <https://bugzilla.wikimedia.**org/41745https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/41745
Fresh stats produced by the WMF show that in May and June this produced a decrease of overall vandalism (or rather, of reverted edits) with a shocking +58 % increase of productive edits by IPs and +23 % for registered users. It seems pt.wiki may see the end of the decline after many years. :) <https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/**index.php?title=Usu%C3%A1rio(** a):HAndrade_(WMF)/Pesquisa_**Vandalismo/Segunda_Fase&oldid=**36301585https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Usu%C3%A1rio(a):HAndrade_(WMF)/Pesquisa_Vandalismo/Segunda_Fase&oldid=36301585
Discussion is ongoing on how pt.wiki will address this growth. Part of the community may think that "nao estamos preparados para crescer". <https://pt.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/** Wikip%C3%A9dia/Reuni%C3%B5es/**Reuni%C3%A3o_IRC_21-06-2013https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Wikip%C3%A9dia/Reuni%C3%B5es/Reuni%C3%A3o_IRC_21-06-2013
Nemo
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On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Denny Vrandečić < denny.vrandecic@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Wait - removing the captchas lead to a decrease of reverted edits in terms of absolute numbers? Woot? Anyone has an explanation for that?
Maybe a CAPTCHA is effective at demotivating bona fide editors and motivates vandal, which vandalize as a revenge for the CAPTCHA? That would be interesting :) Marco
Denny Vrandečić, 05/07/2013 17:42:
Wait - removing the captchas lead to a decrease of reverted edits in terms of absolute numbers? Woot? Anyone has an explanation for that?
No, sorry if I was misleading: decrease in relative numbers only. :) The tables are fairly readable even if you don't know Portuguese, I try not to be too verbose sometimes. :P
Nemo
On 07/05/2013 01:07 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
No, sorry if I was misleading: decrease in relative numbers only.
That's not surprising; someone with malice aforethought isn't going to be stopped by a captcha, someone who just though "Hey, I'll correct that typo" is likely to not want to bother.
-- Marc
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Denny Vrandečić < denny.vrandecic@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Wait - removing the captchas lead to a decrease of reverted edits in terms of absolute numbers? Woot? Anyone has an explanation for that?
I think the explanation is pretty clear from the numbers Nemo shared. This CAPTCHA was annoying as hell, and was directed not just at people adding links or hitting some kind of AbuseFilter, but everyone who was editing anonymously or with a new account. It was literally throwing the baby out with the bath water.
As someone who had to experience that CAPTCHA as a new user on ptwiki last year, I am not surprised at all that we attracted many more positive contributions just by removing it. Sadly, from looking at bug 49860 and gerrit change 69982, it seems that this deeply annoying feature is going to be put back in place.
Hoi Steven,
When the facts show that having the CAPTCHA is a demonstrable BAD idea. It should be easy to prevent CAPTCHA from being implemented again.
I am sure you know who to speak to.
Thanks, GerardM
On 5 July 2013 21:02, Steven Walling swalling@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Denny Vrandečić < denny.vrandecic@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Wait - removing the captchas lead to a decrease of reverted edits in
terms
of absolute numbers? Woot? Anyone has an explanation for that?
I think the explanation is pretty clear from the numbers Nemo shared. This CAPTCHA was annoying as hell, and was directed not just at people adding links or hitting some kind of AbuseFilter, but everyone who was editing anonymously or with a new account. It was literally throwing the baby out with the bath water.
As someone who had to experience that CAPTCHA as a new user on ptwiki last year, I am not surprised at all that we attracted many more positive contributions just by removing it. Sadly, from looking at bug 49860 and gerrit change 69982, it seems that this deeply annoying feature is going to be put back in place.
-- Steven Walling https://wikimediafoundation.org/ _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 7:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi Steven,
When the facts show that having the CAPTCHA is a demonstrable BAD idea. It should be easy to prevent CAPTCHA from being implemented again.
To be precise, the facts do not show that. They show the CAPTCHA is responsible for significantly fewer good-faith contributions from casual editors. That is is or is not a "bad idea", however, is a subjective judgment, based on one's weighing of multiple factors.
Evidently, large parts of the PTWP community remain convinced that the downsides of not having the CAPTCHA (easier vandalism? admin workload? -- I'm not really following that debate) outweigh the upsides. You (and I) may well disagree, but let's recognize that this depends on our _judgment_ of priorities.
Whether or not an editing community's mandate for self-governance should extend to the right to make such a fundamentally anti-wiki measure as the emergency CAPTCHA feature a permanent one is debatable, of course.
Asaf
Asaf Bartov, 06/07/2013 23:51:
To be precise, the facts do not show that. They show the CAPTCHA is responsible for significantly fewer good-faith contributions from casual editors. That is is or is not a "bad idea", however, is a subjective judgment, based on one's weighing of multiple factors.
Evidently, large parts of the PTWP community remain convinced that the downsides of not having the CAPTCHA (easier vandalism? admin workload? -- I'm not really following that debate) outweigh the upsides.
It's worth noting, among other things, that the vote in question ended just before the stats were released.
Nemo
You (and I) may well disagree, but let's recognize that this depends on our _judgment_ of priorities.
Whether or not an editing community's mandate for self-governance should extend to the right to make such a fundamentally anti-wiki measure as the emergency CAPTCHA feature a permanent one is debatable, of course.
Asaf
That's been a very complex issue. Henrique will bring more context into here.
For now, it's worth mentioning the Portuguese Wikipedia community has been working on this antivandalism project http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia_Discuss%C3%A3o:Projetos/AntiVand... order to build alternative measures to deal with vandalism and inappropriate edits with a very small portion of the community reverting edits - considering the short and mid terms.
They are already aware that even the return of emergency CAPTCHA won't be a definite measure (lasting no more than one year, as per what was agreed) and are handling to create other ways of preventing inappropriate content through new approaches.
I actually believe that's a good idea and am happy to see there has been a lot of work on that - out of comfort zone, but also conscious of the current limitations in place.
Oona
On 6 July 2013 20:22, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Asaf Bartov, 06/07/2013 23:51:
To be precise, the facts do not show that. They show the CAPTCHA is
responsible for significantly fewer good-faith contributions from casual editors. That is is or is not a "bad idea", however, is a subjective judgment, based on one's weighing of multiple factors.
Evidently, large parts of the PTWP community remain convinced that the downsides of not having the CAPTCHA (easier vandalism? admin workload? -- I'm not really following that debate) outweigh the upsides.
It's worth noting, among other things, that the vote in question ended just before the stats were released.
Nemo
You (and I)
may well disagree, but let's recognize that this depends on our _judgment_ of priorities.
Whether or not an editing community's mandate for self-governance should extend to the right to make such a fundamentally anti-wiki measure as the emergency CAPTCHA feature a permanent one is debatable, of course.
Asaf______________________________**_________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@**lists.wikimedia.orgwikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=**unsubscribe>
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Oona Castro ocastro@wikimedia.org wrote:
For now, it's worth mentioning the Portuguese Wikipedia community has been working on this antivandalism project http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia_Discuss%C3%A3o:Projetos/AntiVand... order to build alternative measures to deal with vandalism and inappropriate edits with a very small portion of the community reverting edits - considering the short and mid terms.
They are already aware that even the return of emergency CAPTCHA won't be a definite measure (lasting no more than one year, as per what was agreed)
As much as I dislike captchas, this seems like a considered decision by the Portuguese Wikipedians. We should support local wiki communities in making choices for themselves -- and help them to run short-term experiments, evaluate the results, and correct mistakes.
Letting communities make and learn form their own mistakes is more important than always being 'right' for one definition of rightness: we can learn from many independent communities, each with their own standards. Of course we all want to improve editor engagement + retention, and overall quality + coverage - the pt:wp community does too! The question is how to trade off between these.
One requirement for making a controversial configuration change - or for continuing it beyond a short initial test period - might be the ability of the requesting community to evaluate its effect.
Sam.
I'm following this ptwiki captcha case closely and I think I can bring some elements for this conversation.
The portuguese community was surprised by the removal of catcha promoted by the global (technical) community. This situation led then to react and a long discussion was held not only about captcha but also about community autonomy. Following Nemo sugestion on bug 41745 the Portuguese community voted a new proposal to enable the captcha again.
When we look to the stats of ptwiki in May and June it is certain that the number of reversions has increased a lot, but it is also true that the number of non-reverted editions raised even more. But some editors claim that sysop and rollbackers are overloaded and this numbers are showing us that more "garbage" (revisions that should be reverted) is staying in ptwiki and not that we are having more good faith editions. I believe that it is very hard for us to tell which theory is right without performing an A/B test.
Besides this debate, it is notorious that sysops and rollbackers are felling overloaded and the growth of gross number of edits that should be reverted (independent of the number of good editions) is a real concern for the ptwiki quality. The community felt that it wasn't ready to deal with this new amount of edits and decided that they should do something in the short term to avoid demotivation of vandalism fighters, and the solution they came up with was enabling the captcha again.
But, as Oona said, they know it cannot be a definite measure and the "AntiVadalism Project" ( http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia_Discuss%C3%A3o:Projetos/AntiVand...) was reactivated willing to create mid and long term measure to fight vandalism enabling the community to deactivate captcha. In this context, one think proposed is the use of the captcha associated with AbuseFilter (as Steven suggested), but for this to happen bug 18110 should be implemented. Also, they proposed bug 41522 to evaluated which kind of editions are being kept away by the captcha (trying Marc Pelletier's theory) and are working on improving bots, filters and asking for new users to became rollbackers.
So, I think ptwiki community is leading many efforts to create sustainable growth, and right now the captcha is a contextualized temporary part of the plan.
Best,
Henrique Andrade
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Oona Castro ocastro@wikimedia.org wrote:
For now, it's worth mentioning the Portuguese Wikipedia community has
been
working on this antivandalism project
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia_Discuss%C3%A3o:Projetos/AntiVand...
order to build alternative measures to deal with vandalism and inappropriate edits with a very small portion of the community reverting edits - considering the short and mid terms.
They are already aware that even the return of emergency CAPTCHA won't
be a
definite measure (lasting no more than one year, as per what was agreed)
As much as I dislike captchas, this seems like a considered decision by the Portuguese Wikipedians. We should support local wiki communities in making choices for themselves -- and help them to run short-term experiments, evaluate the results, and correct mistakes.
Letting communities make and learn form their own mistakes is more important than always being 'right' for one definition of rightness: we can learn from many independent communities, each with their own standards. Of course we all want to improve editor engagement + retention, and overall quality + coverage - the pt:wp community does too! The question is how to trade off between these.
One requirement for making a controversial configuration change - or for continuing it beyond a short initial test period - might be the ability of the requesting community to evaluate its effect.
Sam.
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On 05/07/13 22:09, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
The recent community initiative with the highest impact I can think of is surely what Platonides and other members of the global (technical) community did on pt.wiki. Platonides noticed a configuration error on pt.wiki: CAPTCHA was required for all edits since 2008. The error was fixed in April. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/41745
Saying that Platonides discovered a configuration error on pt.wp and fixed it is a bit like saying Captain Cook discovered New Zealand and fixed its lack of pigs.
Of course, the pt.wp community was well aware of the situation. The response of the pt.wp community to the original "emergency" -- asking for CAPTCHAs to be enabled for everyone -- was very specific to that community. I have to wonder whether the requesters were hoping for implicit permanence.
It's a reminder that we need a robust procedure for making temporary changes. In the past we have relied on the requester saying to us afterwards "ok, it's all done now, you can revert it." That doesn't work if "temporary" is said with a wink.
-- Tim Starling
Tim Starling, 12/07/2013 01:14:
Of course, the pt.wp community was well aware of the situation.
I don't think so. Some community members were, but very few. It took 7 months to get a local discussion/vote on the matter start and conclude. Proceurally, the absence of consensus for the configuration is the reason why the default was restored.
The response of the pt.wp community to the original "emergency" -- asking for CAPTCHAs to be enabled for everyone -- was very specific to that community. I have to wonder whether the requesters were hoping for implicit permanence.
It's a reminder that we need a robust procedure for making temporary changes. In the past we have relied on the requester saying to us afterwards "ok, it's all done now, you can revert it." That doesn't work if "temporary" is said with a wink.
Indeed.
Nemo
On 05/07/13 22:09, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
The recent community initiative with the highest impact I can think of is surely what Platonides and other members of the global (technical) community did on pt.wiki. Platonides noticed a configuration error on pt.wiki: CAPTCHA was required for all edits since 2008. The error was fixed in April. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/41745
Fresh stats produced by the WMF show that in May and June this produced a decrease of overall vandalism (or rather, of reverted edits) with a shocking +58 % increase of productive edits by IPs and +23 % for registered users. It seems pt.wiki may see the end of the decline after many years. :) https://pt.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Usu%C3%A1rio(a):HAndrade_(WMF)/Pesquisa_Vandalismo/Segunda_Fase&oldid=36301585
Discussion is ongoing on how pt.wiki will address this growth. Part of the community may think that "nao estamos preparados para crescer". https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Wikip%C3%A9dia/Reuni%C3%B5es/Reuni%C3%A3o_IRC_21-06-2013
Note that CAPTCHAs have now been re-enabled on the Portuguese Wikipedia. Erik made the decision, in response to on-wiki consensus. I deployed the change just now.
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49860#c75
-- Tim Starling
Tim Starling wrote:
Note that CAPTCHAs have now been re-enabled on the Portuguese Wikipedia. Erik made the decision, in response to on-wiki consensus. I deployed the change just now.
Lest there be any confusion or doubt: this is a Bad Thing. We should take this time to explicitly state here (or even re-state here, it's important) that using CAPTCHAs in this way is a fundamental violation of our core principles, particularly site accessibility and openness.
As a compromise measure between wiki sovereignty and autonomy and our deeply held values, there's been a temporary reinstatement of the CAPTCHAs on the Portuguese Wikipedia for the remainder of 2013. After December 31, 2013, these CAPTCHAs will be re-disabled. Hopefully no other wiki will feel the need to invoke such a drastic measure ever again.
MZMcBride
Thankfully, this change was thought to be temporary. I wonder though how many fundamental violations is removing such an important feature without warning community. As mentioned on Erik's comment above, that was suddenly changed without any warning and preparation. Not providing proper community participation was a mistake that should have been acknowledged already. Sometimes Bugzilla is used in ways that it shouldn't. Community should be aware that CAPTCHA would be removed soon, but it wasn't. Most users were aware only when it was already removed. It is not that you needed permission to do it as it was mistakenly understood by some; it is just a heads up so community could prepare for it. Teles
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 23:29:30 -0400 From: z@mzmcbride.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] What community initiatives have made an impact on editor engagement?
Tim Starling wrote:
Note that CAPTCHAs have now been re-enabled on the Portuguese Wikipedia. Erik made the decision, in response to on-wiki consensus. I deployed the change just now.
Lest there be any confusion or doubt: this is a Bad Thing. We should take this time to explicitly state here (or even re-state here, it's important) that using CAPTCHAs in this way is a fundamental violation of our core principles, particularly site accessibility and openness.
As a compromise measure between wiki sovereignty and autonomy and our deeply held values, there's been a temporary reinstatement of the CAPTCHAs on the Portuguese Wikipedia for the remainder of 2013. After December 31, 2013, these CAPTCHAs will be re-disabled. Hopefully no other wiki will feel the need to invoke such a drastic measure ever again.
MZMcBride
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On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Steven Walling swalling@wikimedia.org wrote:
On July 11th at the next WMF Metrics & Activities meeting, myself, Erik Möller, Howie Fung, Maryana Pinchuk, and Dario Taraborelli are going to deliver a short update on the state of Wikimedia editor communities. (For those not familiar: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Metrics_and_activities_meetings)
This presentation will be at the meeting in 30 minutes. Don't worry if you're interested but can't make it; the meeting will be recorded.
-- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Steven Walling swalling@wikimedia.org wrote:
On July 11th at the next WMF Metrics & Activities meeting, myself, Erik Möller, Howie Fung, Maryana Pinchuk, and Dario Taraborelli are going to deliver a short update on the state of Wikimedia editor communities. (For those not familiar: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Metrics_and_activities_meetings)
This presentation will be at the meeting in 30 minutes. Don't worry if you're interested but can't make it; the meeting will be recorded.
The video is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALT8_Toyc0g now.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Steven Walling steven.walling@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Steven Walling swalling@wikimedia.org wrote:
On July 11th at the next WMF Metrics & Activities meeting, myself, Erik Möller, Howie Fung, Maryana Pinchuk, and Dario Taraborelli are going to deliver a short update on the state of Wikimedia editor communities. (For those not familiar: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Metrics_and_activities_meetings)
This presentation will be at the meeting in 30 minutes. Don't worry if you're interested but can't make it; the meeting will be recorded.
The video is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALT8_Toyc0g now.
And on a certain other website too: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMF_Monthly_Metrics_Meeting_July_11,... (as usually, the video will also be included in the monthly WMF report and Wikimedia Highlights)
Steven Walling <steven.walling@...> writes:
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Erik Moeller <erik <at> wikimedia.org>
wrote:
On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Steven Walling <swalling <at>
wikimedia.org>
wrote:
On July 11th at the next WMF Metrics & Activities meeting, myself, Erik Möller, Howie Fung, Maryana Pinchuk, and Dario Taraborelli are going to deliver a short update on the state of Wikimedia editor communities. (For those not familiar: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Metrics_and_activities_meetings)
This presentation will be at the meeting in 30 minutes. Don't worry if you're interested but can't make it; the meeting will be recorded.
The video is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALT8_Toyc0g now. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l <at> lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request <at> lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Thanks for posting the video. My thoughts below went longer than I expected, so I'll start with a tl;dr.
TL;DR: more is not always better in encyclopedia-building; please include more analysis of the old-timers in your stats; the drama issues could probably use a little bit of attention; find and help the community engage the editors who interface with newbies; Wikiproject Med has tried to work on recruiting scientists - a good idea; on curation and quality control, we could use edit metadata; and please slow down and show you're actually listening when it comes to Visual Editor.
1. Mixing up the gender and geographical distribution is a lofty and laudable goal, but you may want to be a little careful of neglecting your base. I also agree with a later comment that a high male ratio could negatively affect the discussion process, which tends to be quite "testy" in a few different ways, so more women could have beneficial side effects. However, there are also risks when you change Wikipedia's population: for example, if editing became mainstream in America Wikipedia's secular-humanist/rational slant could be significantly eroded. I don't think it is a big risk but it's something to keep in mind.
2. I was disappointed to hear that the analysis of active editors focused on editors with 5+ edits/month. I'd like to see a stratified breakdown and it seems like it wouldn't be hard to do. This plays into the caution above that not much attention is paid to the long-term regulars, although the presenter alluded to earlier research showing their staying power.
I've been following this list for maybe a month or two now and I'm a little surprised that little to none of the regular wiki drama seems to leak out and that the metrics made no mention of the drama. I'm sort of glad that there is little drama in this world, but I hope it's not ignorance. For example, the English wiki has been a bit more dramatic lately with some high-profile admin and editor resignations leaving and concerns about unfair processes (e.g., SMcCandlish). Some of it is just interpersonal and maybe it's not different than usual, but it would be nice to have more than anecdotal observations. There's also reoccurring controversies about civility enforcement (I rarely bother to weigh in, but I believe in enforcing civility). I think there might be a role for the Foundation in researching these types of issues and streamlining some of the tools.
3. I agree that user experience is poor and I agree with all 5 points listed in the reasons for stagnation. Poor social interaction is particularly serious. Maybe there is something being done that I'm unaware of but as a first start I would try to identify the editors who have a lot interaction with new users and try to communicate with them. I'm not one of those users; in the rare case that I see a promising new editor in my areas I welcome, but I have never left a template without adding a short personal note afterwards (the welcome template of Twinkle has no field for an optional message, so it takes a little extra work). However, just today I noticed that a newbie I mentored a little and who made significant improvements to the PPACA (Obamacare) got hit by speedy image deletion templates with scary "you may be blocked" bolded messages and no personal touch, even though the images may well have been just fine. The templater probably templates a lot of people and could use some mentoring, although how to approach that in a polite manner is its own challenge (I gave him my 2 cents). This is also an area where the community could develop yet more rules (oh fun!) to rein in those who interface with new users.
4. On campaigns and editathons, I know the WikiProject Medicine, mainly through Doc James, had been trying to engage with biomedical scientists and doctors. This type of outreach is particularly nice because these are exactly the type of smart and mature people you'd like to see building an encyclopedia. We've also seen professors having their students edit medical and biology articles, which can be a headache for regulars but probably worth it.
5. Improving workflow and moving past talkpages is fine and dandy, but Erik mentioned curation from mobile devices, so I'll plug (again) an old idea I've floated now and again: edits could have metadata which shows how many people glanced at a particular edit (with an option to actually sign off on it), and further metadata noting whether references were added and if so were they fact-checked. There's a lot more to building a good encyclopedia than more users, and in fact in some cases more cooks in the kitchen just makes things harder.
6. When I did limited testing of visual editor again about an hour ago it seemed OK, with a few improvements since I'd tried before IIRC. I'm optimistic about Visual Editor and I generally think it looks clean and professional and appears highly-functional, so some congratulations are in order. However, I don't think the deployment decisions should be delegated to someone very close to the development process, which is what it sounds like is happening.
With that said, I think you should err on the side of caution and I strongly urge you to be very flexible in scheduling the full rollout (taking the comments by Dragons flight at Wikipedia:VP/T#Amended_VisualEditor_deployment_schedule that the "list of known bugs ought to be very short at each phase of deployment" to heart; see bugs at https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?product=VisualEditor& bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED& bug_status=REOPENED&bug_severity=critical&bug_severity=grave& bug_severity=major&bug_severity=crash&bug_severity=normal& bug_severity=minor). This has already caused a lot of strain with the regulars on the English Wikipedia, and it is not clear that the developers are reviewing and compiling all the feedback which has been made at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VE/F. One concern I have is how edit conflicts are handled, since they are easily resolved by copying/pasting the code in the current system.
While you can cite "CONEXCEPT" over and over, if you push people too hard and cause too much disruption they may just quit, and if enough regulars quit, that could lead to a cascading effect which the Foundation may not even notice before its gone pretty far. But I think the bigger problem is damaging the already tenuous goodwill between the groups.
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only Staff can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the correct place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the staff in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images being made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage people and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on the picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed
Hi, a few things...
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only Staff can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the correct place to post this.
There are volunteers that can also edit the Wikimedia Foundation website. Such accounts can be requested at [[m:WMFACCOUNT]]. Also, the (more) correct place to post this is to create a section at [[m:FWF]] so that people with accounts on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki can look into it and process your request
I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the staff in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images being made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage people and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on the picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional.
I would agree with this, the new picture fades his face out, which would defeat the purpose of properly identifying the person in particular. I am going to let someone else change it though :)
Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I don't see any problem with it. I'm not sure how it is somehow more unprofessional than "absentee" (for lack of a better term) pictures being labeled "Cloak of invisibility?" Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
Further, what does "all but neutral" mean?
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police because someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only Staff can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the correct place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the staff in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images being made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage people and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on the picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
The real issue here is that the Legal Department has a stuffed animal mascot, while WMF engineering/product has absolutely no animals of any kind. I would put up a photograph of Tux, but I'm worried Rory will eat him.
Erik
On 12 July 2013 09:11, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
The real issue here is that the Legal Department has a stuffed animal mascot, while WMF engineering/product has absolutely no animals of any kind. I would put up a photograph of Tux, but I'm worried Rory will eat him.
If you're going to add a photo of Tux then you'll have to add a user pagehttps://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Roryand accompanying email address too!
2013/7/12 Thehelpfulone thehelpfulonewiki@gmail.com:
On 12 July 2013 09:11, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
The real issue here is that the Legal Department has a stuffed animal mascot, while WMF engineering/product has absolutely no animals of any kind. I would put up a photograph of Tux, but I'm worried Rory will eat him.
Well, I think the real real issue is that 10 emails in 2 hours is lame for a Friday Flame :) I say we try again.
Strainu
Dan, A placeholder for people without pictures shouldn't be a problem. Thats common use. And they are all the same so thats a OK thing. The picture of Rory is a picture of Rory. It even says its a mascot and I agree with Erik we need Tux for Engineering. And no, we are not in the 1950's but as a international organisation we should still keep in mind that tattoos aren't accepted world wide. Placing your tattoo on a staff page and your face faded away is provocating the fact that he has tattoo's and not proffesional. Secondly all staff pictures are made by a professional photographer? Or kind of in the same setting. That will keep the page uniform also. Ed
From: swatjester@gmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 04:02:56 -0400 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I don't see any problem with it. I'm not sure how it is somehow more unprofessional than "absentee" (for lack of a better term) pictures being labeled "Cloak of invisibility?" Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
Further, what does "all but neutral" mean?
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police because someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only Staff can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the correct place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the staff in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images being made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage people and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on the picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Funny thing is, at my work I'm trying to get my staff to take crazy picture for our public staff page. Pictures with stupid/crazy objects, cosplaying, playing games, etc.
Because I believe my staff are not well represented by ID Card photos (those are great for passports, but to provide an insight of what we are... not so much). They're awesome people, with great personality and I want people from the outside to know it, and I want people to want to join us and knowing if they're hired they're walking into a mad house.
So for one, I love Rory, and Brandon picture is just awesome.
My 2 cts -- Christophe
On 12 July 2013 10:18, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Dan, A placeholder for people without pictures shouldn't be a problem. Thats common use. And they are all the same so thats a OK thing. The picture of Rory is a picture of Rory. It even says its a mascot and I agree with Erik we need Tux for Engineering. And no, we are not in the 1950's but as a international organisation we should still keep in mind that tattoos aren't accepted world wide. Placing your tattoo on a staff page and your face faded away is provocating the fact that he has tattoo's and not proffesional. Secondly all staff pictures are made by a professional photographer? Or kind of in the same setting. That will keep the page uniform also. Ed
From: swatjester@gmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 04:02:56 -0400 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I don't see any problem with it. I'm not sure how it is somehow more unprofessional than "absentee" (for lack of a better term) pictures being labeled "Cloak of invisibility?" Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
Further, what does "all but neutral" mean?
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police because someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only Staff can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the correct place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the staff in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images being made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage people and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on the picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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You realize we have a page on Tattoos that shows just how prevalent they are throughout the world, yes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattoo
Also, I think you missed my sarcasm about Rory and the invisibility cloak. They're non-issues, just as Brandon's photo is a non-issue.
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Dan, A placeholder for people without pictures shouldn't be a problem. Thats common use. And they are all the same so thats a OK thing. The picture of Rory is a picture of Rory. It even says its a mascot and I agree with Erik we need Tux for Engineering. And no, we are not in the 1950's but as a international organisation we should still keep in mind that tattoos aren't accepted world wide. Placing your tattoo on a staff page and your face faded away is provocating the fact that he has tattoo's and not proffesional. Secondly all staff pictures are made by a professional photographer? Or kind of in the same setting. That will keep the page uniform also. Ed
From: swatjester@gmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 04:02:56 -0400 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I don't see any problem with it. I'm not sure how it is somehow more unprofessional than "absentee" (for lack of a better term) pictures being labeled "Cloak of invisibility?" Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
Further, what does "all but neutral" mean?
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police
because
someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com
wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only Staff can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the
correct
place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the
staff
in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images being made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage
people
and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on
the
picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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We are not Coopers and Lybrand - we are real people. If somebody really objects to an image then their complaint should be taken seriously but let's not try and second guess the world.
Jon Davies - WMUK
PS I am trying to get my staff to take photos where they don't all appear to be a bit crazed...
On 12 July 2013 09:31, Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
You realize we have a page on Tattoos that shows just how prevalent they are throughout the world, yes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattoo
Also, I think you missed my sarcasm about Rory and the invisibility cloak. They're non-issues, just as Brandon's photo is a non-issue.
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Dan, A placeholder for people without pictures shouldn't be a problem. Thats common use. And they are all the same so thats a OK thing. The picture of Rory is a picture of Rory. It even says its a mascot and I agree with Erik we need Tux for Engineering. And no, we are not in the 1950's but as a international organisation we should still keep in mind that tattoos aren't accepted world wide.
Placing
your tattoo on a staff page and your face faded away is provocating the fact that he has tattoo's and not proffesional. Secondly all staff pictures are made by a professional photographer? Or kind of in the same setting. That will keep the page uniform also. Ed
From: swatjester@gmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 04:02:56 -0400 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I don't see any problem with it. I'm not sure how it is somehow more unprofessional than "absentee" (for lack of a better term) pictures
being
labeled "Cloak of invisibility?" Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
Further, what does "all but neutral" mean?
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police
because
someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com
wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only
Staff
can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the
correct
place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the
staff
in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images
being
made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage
people
and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on
the
picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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I think what's really offensive here is the implication that having a tat means that you're not professional. I don't have any ink myself, but I respect the choice of those who do.
To be honest, I like the occasionally goofy pictures and profiles on the WMF staff page; it shows that there are real people (and a tiger!) working there and not just corporate drones.
Cheers, Craig
On 12 July 2013 18:18, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Dan, A placeholder for people without pictures shouldn't be a problem. Thats common use. And they are all the same so thats a OK thing. The picture of Rory is a picture of Rory. It even says its a mascot and I agree with Erik we need Tux for Engineering. And no, we are not in the 1950's but as a international organisation we should still keep in mind that tattoos aren't accepted world wide. Placing your tattoo on a staff page and your face faded away is provocating the fact that he has tattoo's and not proffesional. Secondly all staff pictures are made by a professional photographer? Or kind of in the same setting. That will keep the page uniform also. Ed
From: swatjester@gmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 04:02:56 -0400 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I don't see any problem with it. I'm not sure how it is somehow more unprofessional than "absentee" (for lack of a better term) pictures being labeled "Cloak of invisibility?" Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
Further, what does "all but neutral" mean?
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police
because
someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com
wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only Staff can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the
correct
place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the
staff
in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images being made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage
people
and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on
the
picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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What Craig said. I can think of 3 staffers on my *team* with tattoos. If people have a problem with ink - more accurately, if we have people who are willing to judge the worth, value and professionalism of others based purely on the presence of tattoos - I don't particularly mind how we come off to them. I imagine we probably wouldn't get on anyway.
On 12 July 2013 12:02, Craig Franklin cfranklin@halonetwork.net wrote:
I think what's really offensive here is the implication that having a tat means that you're not professional. I don't have any ink myself, but I respect the choice of those who do.
To be honest, I like the occasionally goofy pictures and profiles on the WMF staff page; it shows that there are real people (and a tiger!) working there and not just corporate drones.
Cheers, Craig
On 12 July 2013 18:18, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Dan, A placeholder for people without pictures shouldn't be a problem. Thats common use. And they are all the same so thats a OK thing. The picture of Rory is a picture of Rory. It even says its a mascot and I agree with Erik we need Tux for Engineering. And no, we are not in the 1950's but as a international organisation we should still keep in mind that tattoos aren't accepted world wide.
Placing
your tattoo on a staff page and your face faded away is provocating the fact that he has tattoo's and not proffesional. Secondly all staff pictures are made by a professional photographer? Or kind of in the same setting. That will keep the page uniform also. Ed
From: swatjester@gmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 04:02:56 -0400 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I don't see any problem with it. I'm not sure how it is somehow more unprofessional than "absentee" (for lack of a better term) pictures
being
labeled "Cloak of invisibility?" Or the picture of Rory as "mascot"?
Further, what does "all but neutral" mean?
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police
because
someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
-Dan
Dan Rosenthal
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com
wrote:
Hi, While its maybe not something for the whole community. Since only
Staff
can edit Wikimedia Foundation website I believe this will be the
correct
place to post this. I feel that the staff images on the Foundation site should show the
staff
in a good way where nobody can have a problem with it. The images
being
made by professionals for that. I believe the image Brandon Harris is using since this night is not suitable for a staff picture. The ink he is showing can discourage
people
and the picture is all but neutral. Secondly he isn't even really on
the
picture his is faded out. I would strongly advice to keep the images there proffesional. Ed _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Hi, I didn't say that people with thats are not proffesionals. I have multiple myself also. I am saying that the page has a lay-out with pictures that all fit together and are specially made for that page. I believe you shouldn't destroy the lay-out or style by adding "personal" pictures. Otherwhise you should lose the style completly. Secondly we are a world wide organisation, and there are still enough countries where tats are not accepted yet. So it can be wise to try to minimise the things on pictures that can be offensive for some people. And as last. Brandon places his tattoo first and makes his face blurry. Thats why I started posting. If both the tattoo would be vissible and his face I wouldn't have any problems at all. Ed
Sure; there are countries with taboos around, for example, tattoos. However, given that we run many encyclopaedias containing articles on pretty much everything, taboo or no taboo (including ink!), anyone easily offended is /going/ to be. There's a saying about horses and doors that applies here.
Brandon does place his tattoo first. The tattoo, you will note, reads "courage". It's what is known as a statement. Brandon is endorsing being bold, not endorsing being inked.
On 12 July 2013 12:10, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Hi, I didn't say that people with thats are not proffesionals. I have multiple myself also. I am saying that the page has a lay-out with pictures that all fit together and are specially made for that page. I believe you shouldn't destroy the lay-out or style by adding "personal" pictures. Otherwhise you should lose the style completly. Secondly we are a world wide organisation, and there are still enough countries where tats are not accepted yet. So it can be wise to try to minimise the things on pictures that can be offensive for some people. And as last. Brandon places his tattoo first and makes his face blurry. Thats why I started posting. If both the tattoo would be vissible and his face I wouldn't have any problems at all. Ed
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Its more like making a statement on your official homepage.
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Oliver Keyes okeyes@wikimedia.org wrote:
Sure; there are countries with taboos around, for example, tattoos. However, given that we run many encyclopaedias containing articles on pretty much everything, taboo or no taboo (including ink!), anyone easily offended is /going/ to be. There's a saying about horses and doors that applies here.
Brandon does place his tattoo first. The tattoo, you will note, reads "courage". It's what is known as a statement. Brandon is endorsing being bold, not endorsing being inked.
On 12 July 2013 12:10, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com wrote:
Hi, I didn't say that people with thats are not proffesionals. I have
multiple
myself also. I am saying that the page has a lay-out with pictures that all fit together and are specially made for that page. I believe you shouldn't destroy the lay-out or style by adding "personal" pictures. Otherwhise
you
should lose the style completly. Secondly we are a world wide organisation, and there are still enough countries where tats are not accepted yet. So it can be wise to try to minimise the things on pictures that can be offensive for some people. And as last. Brandon places his tattoo first and makes his face blurry. Thats why I started posting. If both the tattoo would be vissible and his face I wouldn't have any problems at all. Ed
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
[Replies inline with quoted message(s)]
On 7/12/2013 4:10 AM PDT, Eddy Paine wrote:
...and there are still enough countries where tats are not accepted yet. So it can be wise to try to minimise the things on pictures that can be offensive for some people....
You make the presumption that the Wikimedia movement is any more socially acceptable than tattoos are (at least in those countries). - -- Sincerely, Andrew "FastLizard4" Adams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FastLizard4 FastLizard4@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0x221A627DD76E2616
There are countries where women showing her shoulders or nude head are not accepted yet. I think the staff should complaint only about what is accepted where they are (so they wont be arrested).
Castelo Branco
Em 12/07/2013, às 08:10, Eddy Paine blogginged@outlook.com escreveu:
Hi, I didn't say that people with thats are not proffesionals. I have multiple myself also. I am saying that the page has a lay-out with pictures that all fit together and are specially made for that page. I believe you shouldn't destroy the lay-out or style by adding "personal" pictures. Otherwhise you should lose the style completly. Secondly we are a world wide organisation, and there are still enough countries where tats are not accepted yet. So it can be wise to try to minimise the things on pictures that can be offensive for some people. And as last. Brandon places his tattoo first and makes his face blurry. Thats why I started posting. If both the tattoo would be vissible and his face I wouldn't have any problems at all. Ed
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On 12 July 2013 14:01, Michel Castelo Branco michelcastelobranco@gmail.comwrote:
There are countries where women showing her shoulders or nude head are not accepted yet. I think the staff should complaint only about what is accepted where they are (so they wont be arrested).
Tattoos fine, leaking PRISM details bad. Got it.
(hi, NSA analyst!)
It is the twenty-first century and people like me have tattooed the logo of Wikipedia in the arm. It's considered wrong for conservatives too?
2013/7/12 Oliver Keyes okeyes@wikimedia.org
On 12 July 2013 14:01, Michel Castelo Branco michelcastelobranco@gmail.comwrote:
There are countries where women showing her shoulders or nude head are
not
accepted yet. I think the staff should complaint only about what is accepted where they are (so they wont be arrested).
Tattoos fine, leaking PRISM details bad. Got it.
(hi, NSA analyst!)
-- Oliver Keyes Community Liaison, Product Development Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
First, I want to make clear that I express no opinion on the ink conversation. I respect the diverse points of views in our community. I understand that everyone has their own stripes.
That said, I am deeply saddened and frankly shocked by allegations voiced by certain people in this thread that somehow I would consider eating Tux, the official mascot of the Linux kernel.
As a supporter of the free knowledge movement, I hunger for role models like Tux. Penguins are known for their outstanding qualities[1], and, showing my good taste, I recognize that my small LCA Foundation profile [2] hardly matches the prominent recognition of Tux’s Wikipedia article. [3] I accordingly decided long ago that Tux was off the menu.
To the contrary, I offer my paw in friendship to Tux. Some say that open source animals are full of bugs, turning them into organic delights. I do support organic meats. I mean friends. Organic friends.
Delicious, organic friends.
I am really hungry now. (I’m not allowed to eat legal interns anymore.[4]) Tux, let’s get together soon, real soon, maybe over lunch.
Best,
Rory
Mascot, Legal and Community Advocacy
*Disclaimer:* I cannot give legal advice because I am not licensed to practice law. I am also a stuffed toy animal without human intelligence.
[1] http://chicago.grubstreet.com/2008/05/what_does_penguin_meat_taste_l.html
http://chicago.grubstreet.com/2008/05/what_does_penguin_meat_taste_l.html
[2] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Roryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux
[4] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Church,_Frederick_Stuart_-_Church_Tig...
Stripes. Yeah, right. Clearly, Rory is wearing tats of their own. Totally covered in 'em! I'm calling foul. "Delicious, organic friends"... I wanna see a photo of Tux to verify life. Something's not right here.
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Rory roaaaary@wikimedia.org wrote:
First, I want to make clear that I express no opinion on the ink conversation. I respect the diverse points of views in our community. I understand that everyone has their own stripes.
That said, I am deeply saddened and frankly shocked by allegations voiced by certain people in this thread that somehow I would consider eating Tux, the official mascot of the Linux kernel.
As a supporter of the free knowledge movement, I hunger for role models like Tux. Penguins are known for their outstanding qualities[1], and, showing my good taste, I recognize that my small LCA Foundation profile [2] hardly matches the prominent recognition of Tux’s Wikipedia article. [3] I accordingly decided long ago that Tux was off the menu.
To the contrary, I offer my paw in friendship to Tux. Some say that open source animals are full of bugs, turning them into organic delights. I do support organic meats. I mean friends. Organic friends.
Delicious, organic friends.
I am really hungry now. (I’m not allowed to eat legal interns anymore.[4]) Tux, let’s get together soon, real soon, maybe over lunch.
Best,
Rory
Mascot, Legal and Community Advocacy
*Disclaimer:* I cannot give legal advice because I am not licensed to practice law. I am also a stuffed toy animal without human intelligence.
[1] http://chicago.grubstreet.com/2008/05/what_does_penguin_meat_taste_l.html
<http://chicago.grubstreet.com/2008/05/what_does_penguin_meat_taste_l.html
[2] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Rory< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux%3E
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux
[4]
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Church,_Frederick_Stuart_-_Church_Tig... _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
And what happened to 'assume good flavor'... I mean faith! Assume Good Faith! I am sure that Rory has only the best intentions. But it is true that his message could be misinterpreted.
I think we should all take a step back and try our very best not to eat each other. I'm sure that if they don't meet over lunch -- and perhaps ensure the expedient measure of living on different floors -- Rory and Tux can be professional colleagues, with the same mission of delicious, delicious (fish-flavored?) free knowledge.
-- phoebe
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Cynthia Ashley-Nelson cindamuse@gmail.comwrote:
Stripes. Yeah, right. Clearly, Rory is wearing tats of their own. Totally covered in 'em! I'm calling foul. "Delicious, organic friends"... I wanna see a photo of Tux to verify life. Something's not right here.
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Rory roaaaary@wikimedia.org wrote:
First, I want to make clear that I express no opinion on the ink conversation. I respect the diverse points of views in our community. I understand that everyone has their own stripes.
That said, I am deeply saddened and frankly shocked by allegations voiced by certain people in this thread that somehow I would consider eating
Tux,
the official mascot of the Linux kernel.
As a supporter of the free knowledge movement, I hunger for role models like Tux. Penguins are known for their outstanding qualities[1], and, showing my good taste, I recognize that my small LCA Foundation profile
[2]
hardly matches the prominent recognition of Tux’s Wikipedia article. [3]
I
accordingly decided long ago that Tux was off the menu.
To the contrary, I offer my paw in friendship to Tux. Some say that open source animals are full of bugs, turning them into organic delights. I do support organic meats. I mean friends. Organic friends.
Delicious, organic friends.
I am really hungry now. (I’m not allowed to eat legal interns
anymore.[4])
Tux, let’s get together soon, real soon, maybe over lunch.
Best,
Rory
Mascot, Legal and Community Advocacy
*Disclaimer:* I cannot give legal advice because I am not licensed to practice law. I
am
also a stuffed toy animal without human intelligence.
[1]
http://chicago.grubstreet.com/2008/05/what_does_penguin_meat_taste_l.html
<
http://chicago.grubstreet.com/2008/05/what_does_penguin_meat_taste_l.html
[2] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Rory< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux%3E
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux
[4]
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Church,_Frederick_Stuart_-_Church_Tig...
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--
Best regards,
Cynthia Ashley-Nelson "Yes. *Her again.*" _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 5:54 PM, phoebe ayers phoebe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
And what happened to 'assume good flavor'... I mean faith! Assume Good Faith! I am sure that Rory has only the best intentions. But it is true that his message could be misinterpreted.
I think we should all take a step back and try our very best not to eat each other. I'm sure that if they don't meet over lunch -- and perhaps ensure the expedient measure of living on different floors -- Rory and Tux can be professional colleagues, with the same mission of delicious, delicious (fish-flavored?) free knowledge.
-- phoebe
I am extraordinarily confused to the point that I had to double check my inbox that this is a Wikimedia-l thread.
Is this **humor** taking place here?
If so, it is off-topic and I would like to see this thread moderated. We don't deserve to giggle :)
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's fingers. --Teles
[1] - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 22:16:49 +0100 From: chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I am extraordinarily confused to the point that I had to double check my inbox that this is a Wikimedia-l thread.
I'd like someone to clarify if this thread has been approved by LaffCom? _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
The issue at the 26 odd email chain is that the staff member should be the main focus of their staff photo? That doesn't seem unreasonable…
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:44 AM, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's fingers. --Teles
[1] - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
On 14/07/2013 02:59, K. Peachey wrote:
The issue at the 26 odd email chain is that the staff member should be the main focus of their staff photo? That doesn't seem unreasonable…
They are not required to have a photo at all, never mind requiring that their face be the focus of said photo.
Small teacup - big storm Totally inoffensive. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lucas Teles" salvadorense@hotmail.com To: "Lista da Wikimedia" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:44 AM Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's fingers. --Teles
[1] - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 22:16:49 +0100 From: chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
I am extraordinarily confused to the point that I had to double check my inbox that this is a Wikimedia-l thread.
I'd like someone to clarify if this thread has been approved by LaffCom? _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's fingers. --Teles
I guess it's time to reveal the truth to all of you; Brandon doesn't
actually /have/ any fingers. A sad story, really - he irrevocably damaged them throwing the horns at a Dethklok concert. You'd expect it to slow him down, what with his employment as a designer, but luckily his hair is perfectly serviceable as a contact medium with tablets - and, in a pinch, can even be used as a brush.
On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's fingers. --Teles
[1] - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Its not fine. Look at the colour blotching under the arm. I wouldn't expect that from the 5DII even at ISO 640. Looks like its been pushed a bit too far in post. That said looking at Matthew 's other photos the camera seems to be struggling to get the light levels right when that EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro lens is used. Not sure why though since thats a pretty good lens camera combination. Perhaps if the WMF is going to insist on taking photos of people indoors under ambient light they should get him a EF 85 mm f/1.2L II.
This is all a style/composition question -
Do we want to aim for uniform portraits on the staff page or not?
On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:47 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's fingers. --Teles
[1] - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Its not fine. Look at the colour blotching under the arm. I wouldn't expect that from the 5DII even at ISO 640. Looks like its been pushed a bit too far in post. That said looking at Matthew 's other photos the camera seems to be struggling to get the light levels right when that EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro lens is used. Not sure why though since thats a pretty good lens camera combination. Perhaps if the WMF is going to insist on taking photos of people indoors under ambient light they should get him a EF 85 mm f/1.2L II.
-- geni _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I'd say that yes, you want uniform pictures, with a uniform idea behind them. For example, all professional, or all slightly informal, or all crazy. It doesn't matter so much about tattoos, but they need to all have the same feel or the page just feels off...
At the moment it does look a bit odd from an external perspective when one staff member has a different style of profile picture to everyone else. If Brandon's picture was a little more focussed on his face rather than his arm, then I don't think anyone would have a huge problem - except that you'd then probably need to change other staff portraits to be informal (or allow staff to pick which ones they want to have), and the changing (and the approval and monitoring of picture changes to ensure that no-one does something stupid) could increase your workload. Who gets the final say in whether a picture is appropriate? Do you need a staff photo policy? Can I change other people's photos if I'm their friend? Could we change Sue's for a laugh on April 1? What happens if a staff member has a photo taken without a shirt on, or with a potentially offensive tattoo, or an NRA (or a political) logo on their baseball cap or shirt? Do we want to run the risk of alienating and upsetting people over such a small thing as a staff photo? How often do donors (including major gifts) see the page? Will it affect them?
There's nothing wrong with a bit of style and a few changes - even lively changes - it's good to make staff appear more like 'normal people'. But it needs a bit of thought behind the scenes to make sure that there's no disruption as a result, and that everyone knows that they can change their picture if they wish. That said, we've got a community with very exacting standards, and even small changes can lead to forty emails on a mailing list quite easily... which is a bit disruptive, regardless of whether the changes are good or bad!
(I also realise that I have written three paragraphs about this issue, which is about the same length as the reports I write at work...)
Yours etc.,
Richard Symonds Wikimedia UK 0207 065 0992
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
On 14 July 2013 23:37, Victor Grigas vgrigas@wikimedia.org wrote:
This is all a style/composition question -
Do we want to aim for uniform portraits on the staff page or not?
On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:47 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening
of
this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's
fingers.
--Teles
[1] -
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Its not fine. Look at the colour blotching under the arm. I wouldn't
expect
that from the 5DII even at ISO 640. Looks like its been pushed a bit too far in post. That said looking at Matthew 's other photos the camera
seems
to be struggling to get the light levels right when that EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro lens is used. Not sure why though since thats a pretty good lens camera combination. Perhaps if the WMF is going to insist on taking
photos
of people indoors under ambient light they should get him a EF 85 mm
f/1.2L
II.
-- geni _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On 15 July 2013 00:06, Richard Symonds richard.symonds@wikimedia.org.uk wrote:
I'd say that yes, you want uniform pictures, with a uniform idea behind them. For example, all professional, or all slightly informal, or all crazy. It doesn't matter so much about tattoos, but they need to all have the same feel or the page just feels off...
I'd say it doesn't really *matter* as such, but all having *something* in common (maybe lighting) would be nice. Ask Brandon, he's the designer ;-)
- d.
Uniform portraits?
Maybe that's an idea - I am just imagining Brandon in firefighter uniform, James Forrester in the uniform of a Beefeater guarding the Tower of London, and the whole of Legal in Special Forces cammo led by Geoff carrying a pearl-handled Colt and chomping on a cigar.
Make it so! This is all a style/composition question -
Do we want to aim for uniform portraits on the staff page or not?
On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:47 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's
fingers.
--Teles
[1] -
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Its not fine. Look at the colour blotching under the arm. I wouldn't
expect
that from the 5DII even at ISO 640. Looks like its been pushed a bit too far in post. That said looking at Matthew 's other photos the camera seems to be struggling to get the light levels right when that EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro lens is used. Not sure why though since thats a pretty good lens camera combination. Perhaps if the WMF is going to insist on taking photos of people indoors under ambient light they should get him a EF 85 mm
f/1.2L
II.
-- geni _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe that's an idea - I am just imagining Brandon in firefighter uniform, James Forrester in the uniform of a Beefeater guarding the Tower of London, and the whole of Legal in Special Forces cammo led by Geoff carrying a pearl-handled Colt and chomping on a cigar.
Speaking of special forces, last time I looked on the third floor at our resident office penguins, they looked like this:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Angry_Office_Penguins.jpg
Rory is right, penguins are probably very flavorful. But they're also birds - angry birds. And they have strength in numbers going for them.
I think the middle one is saying: "That's a nice stuffed tiger you got there .. would be a _shame_ if something happened to it."
(Rumor has it that HR is soon going to introduce a new caring and loving penguin into the habitat. Perhaps the HR penguin can mediate should matters escalate quickly.)
Erik
Erik Moeller, 15/07/2013 10:34:
(Rumor has it that HR is soon going to introduce a new caring and loving penguin into the habitat. Perhaps the HR penguin can mediate should matters escalate quickly.)
Scary. I think a copy of a recent statement on gun violence would also come handy. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/07/14/statement-president
Nemo
Hello Everyone,
As for the insights on staff photos, thank you for your feedback. Yes, we are in the process of creating some more consistency in our staff photos for the Wikimedia Foundation staff page, while allowing the people who work here to be seen in a way that feels comfortable to them as well. It is a nice balance that we are still refining. We will be getting a bunch of photos taken during our next all staff meeting in September, so stay tuned. :)
We are working on ways at managing consistency in house at the moment and appreciate your feedback and patience. More photos coming soon enough. Mel
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 2:44 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.comwrote:
Erik Moeller, 15/07/2013 10:34:
(Rumor has it that HR is soon going to introduce a new caring and
loving penguin into the habitat. Perhaps the HR penguin can mediate should matters escalate quickly.)
Scary. I think a copy of a recent statement on gun violence would also come handy. <http://www.whitehouse.gov/**the-press-office/2013/07/14/** statement-presidenthttp://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/07/14/statement-president
Nemo
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Hi there,
2013/7/15 Melanie Brown mbrown@wikimedia.org
Hello Everyone,
As for the insights on staff photos, thank you for your feedback. Yes, we are in the process of creating some more consistency in our staff photos for the Wikimedia Foundation
Absolutely, more consistency is important. I think everyone has to have the same tattoo as Juliana to be allowed to work for WMF. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WIKIPEDIA-Tattoo.JPG
Happy inking, Steffen
Did she get permission to use the trademark in that way by WMF legal? :-) On 17/07/2013 1:41 AM, "Steffen Prößdorf" steffen.proessdorf@wikimedia.de wrote:
Hi there,
2013/7/15 Melanie Brown mbrown@wikimedia.org
Hello Everyone,
As for the insights on staff photos, thank you for your feedback. Yes, we are in the process of creating some more consistency in our staff photos for the Wikimedia Foundation
Absolutely, more consistency is important. I think everyone has to have the same tattoo as Juliana to be allowed to work for WMF. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WIKIPEDIA-Tattoo.JPG
Happy inking, Steffen
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Roary, please know that I was not distressed by any of the earlier comments in this thread. I see a vanguard of my relatives already quietly oversee the Wikimedia offices. We are a sociable clan,[1] and accept your proffered paw of peace. We find felines make fine company, with your flexible nature, thick skin and tendency toward deep furry naps. You seem to be quite warm; I hope to get to know you more closely.[2]
We are working on ways at managing consistency in house at the moment and appreciate your feedback and patience. More photos coming soon enough. Meal
All this talk of feed consistency makes me hungry too. I find the best-tasting feedback involves collaboration over a squid.[3]
Love and Wikiwiki, Tux
[1] http://bit.ly/12EeYcR [2] http://bit.ly/15HZHgi [3] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gentoo_Penguin_feeding_its_chick_(606...
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:33 PM, L. Tuxwell Anonanon tux@linuxlover.orgwrote:
Roary, please know that I was not distressed by any of the earlier comments in this thread. I see a vanguard of my relatives already quietly oversee the Wikimedia offices. We are a sociable clan,[1] and accept your proffered paw of peace. We find felines make fine company, with your flexible nature, thick skin and tendency toward deep furry naps. You seem to be quite warm; I hope to get to know you more closely.[2]
We are working on ways at managing consistency in house at the
moment and appreciate your feedback and patience. More photos coming soon enough. Meal
All this talk of feed consistency makes me hungry too. I find the best-tasting feedback involves collaboration over a squid.[3]
Love and Wikiwiki, Tux
tut tut, Tux. Bitly shortener? http://ur1.ca/
:)
[3] http://commons.wikimedia.org/**wiki/File:Gentoo_Penguin_** feeding_its_chick_(6063656750)**.jpghttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gentoo_Penguin_feeding_its_chick_(6063656750).jpg
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(Rumor has it that HR is soon going to introduce a new caring and loving penguin into the habitat. Perhaps the HR penguin can mediate should matters escalate quickly.)
Erik - to be frank I think this would be a serious mistake.
A penguin would have no understanding of the Wikimedia culture. I mean they spend all their time huddling on ice-floes! What's that got to do with creating an encyclopedia? I notice that hardly ANYONE edits Wikipedia from the South Pole, despite it being the only place that everyone can agree is in the Global South.
Indeed, what's the whole contribution of Antarctica been to the Wikimedia movement? Sweet fanny adams, that's what. But it doesn't even warrant a mention in the Foundation strategic plan! There is literally a whole continent that we don't care about. I suppose because you don't get many icebergs in San Francisco somehow you think Antarctica does't matter.
Frankly we don't need a penguin in the HR department. We need a penguin on the Foundation Board.
No, we need a penguin as Executive Director. While Sue has made some really important contributions, I have never seen her hunt fish or waddle around with an egg on her feet. That has to change and it has to change now. It's the only way we will take the South Pole seriously.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.comwrote:
(Rumor has it that HR is soon going to introduce a new caring and loving penguin into the habitat. Perhaps the HR penguin can mediate should matters escalate quickly.)
Erik - to be frank I think this would be a serious mistake.
A penguin would have no understanding of the Wikimedia culture. I mean they spend all their time huddling on ice-floes! What's that got to do with creating an encyclopedia? I notice that hardly ANYONE edits Wikipedia from the South Pole, despite it being the only place that everyone can agree is in the Global South.
Indeed, what's the whole contribution of Antarctica been to the Wikimedia movement? Sweet fanny adams, that's what. But it doesn't even warrant a mention in the Foundation strategic plan! There is literally a whole continent that we don't care about. I suppose because you don't get many icebergs in San Francisco somehow you think Antarctica does't matter.
The penguins should be much more comfortable on Wikisource.
As a non-native English speaker the only real problem that I can see is that the message could be hard to understand for some people. Hence, I hope that Brandon would be willing to internationalize himself a bit and add proper translations. The Swedish translation of "Courage" is "Mod" - feel free to add the new tattoo wherever you see fit.
Best,
John
- - - -
John Andersson
Wikimedia Sverige
Project Leader Europeana Awareness
Phone: +46(0)73-3965189
Email: john.andersson@wikimedia.se
Skype: johnandersson86
Be sure to follow us on Twitter at @wikieuropeana
Would you like to support free knowledge? Please consider becoming a member of Wikimedia Sweden!
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:47:08 +0100 From: geniice@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's fingers. --Teles
[1] - https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Its not fine. Look at the colour blotching under the arm. I wouldn't expect that from the 5DII even at ISO 640. Looks like its been pushed a bit too far in post. That said looking at Matthew 's other photos the camera seems to be struggling to get the light levels right when that EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro lens is used. Not sure why though since thats a pretty good lens camera combination. Perhaps if the WMF is going to insist on taking photos of people indoors under ambient light they should get him a EF 85 mm f/1.2L II.
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Again with the cultural issues! I demand that Brandon get "Rocker" tattooed on his other arm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mods_and_rockers
On 15 July 2013 19:27, John Andersson john.andersson@wikimedia.se wrote:
As a non-native English speaker the only real problem that I can see is that the message could be hard to understand for some people. Hence, I hope that Brandon would be willing to internationalize himself a bit and add proper translations. The Swedish translation of "Courage" is "Mod" - feel free to add the new tattoo wherever you see fit.
Best,
John
John Andersson
Wikimedia Sverige
Project Leader Europeana Awareness
Phone: +46(0)73-3965189
Email: john.andersson@wikimedia.se
Skype: johnandersson86
Be sure to follow us on Twitter at @wikieuropeana
Would you like to support free knowledge? Please consider becoming a member of Wikimedia Sweden!
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 17:47:08 +0100 From: geniice@gmail.com To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Staff Images
On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening
of
this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's
fingers.
--Teles
[1] -
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Its not fine. Look at the colour blotching under the arm. I wouldn't
expect
that from the 5DII even at ISO 640. Looks like its been pushed a bit too far in post. That said looking at Matthew 's other photos the camera
seems
to be struggling to get the light levels right when that EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro lens is used. Not sure why though since thats a pretty good lens camera combination. Perhaps if the WMF is going to insist on taking
photos
of people indoors under ambient light they should get him a EF 85 mm
f/1.2L
II.
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mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:47 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
On 14 July 2013 00:44, Lucas Teles salvadorense@hotmail.com wrote:
Is that [1] the photo? I was expecting something worse per the opening of this discussion. It seems to be fine for me (in a manly way of saying a photo of another man is fine), expect for the removal of Brandon's
fingers.
--Teles
[1] -
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Brandon_Harris_courage.jpg
Its not fine. Look at the colour blotching under the arm. I wouldn't expect that from the 5DII even at ISO 640. Looks like its been pushed a bit too far in post. That said looking at Matthew 's other photos the camera seems to be struggling to get the light levels right when that EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro lens is used. Not sure why though since thats a pretty good lens camera combination. Perhaps if the WMF is going to insist on taking photos of people indoors under ambient light they should get him a EF 85 mm f/1.2L
II.
I find this to be a terribly sexy proposition. I would urge geni to become the new manager for equipment approvals.
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On 15 July 2013 21:41, Matthew Roth mroth@wikimedia.org wrote:
I find this to be a terribly sexy proposition. I would urge geni to become the new manager for equipment approvals.
geni is a Commons admin. Nitpickers so formidable that Counsel has expressed his admiration for their l33t nitpicking. You will have *the* *best* equipment ... eventually.
- d.
On 7/12/2013 3:22 PM, Rory wrote:
I am really hungry now. (I’m not allowed to eat legal interns anymore.[4]) Tux, let’s get together soon, real soon, maybe over lunch.
Rory, if you're that desperate, may I suggest you scrounge around in your slippers? I'm sure you could find some tasty crumbs in there.
--Michael Snow
On 07/12/2013 07:10 AM, Eddy Paine wrote:
Secondly we are a world wide organisation, and there are still enough countries where tats are not accepted yet.
Then surely, we must err on the side of conservatism!
Let's make certain that every woman on staff has a picture in a burka.
-- Marc
On 07/12/2013 04:18 AM, Eddy Paine wrote:
Dan, A placeholder for people without pictures shouldn't be a problem. Thats common use. And they are all the same so thats a OK thing. The picture of Rory is a picture of Rory. It even says its a mascot and I agree with Erik we need Tux for Engineering. And no, we are not in the 1950's but as a international organisation we should still keep in mind that tattoos aren't accepted world wide.
I don't think that should be a requirement. Even clothing choices are not accepted world-wide (in some places, short sleeves and/or showing your hair are considered unacceptable).
I see no problem with Brandon's choice to show his tattoo. It might be nice to use a greater depth of field so his face was in focus too, but you can still see it.
Matt Flaschen
On 12 July 2013 09:02, Dan Rosenthal swatjester@gmail.com wrote:
Really, aren't there better things to do than play morality police because someone "might" be upset about some ink? This isn't the 1950's. Who is upset, and why?
DFTT.
- d.
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