https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people works?
Regards, Jee
You didn't get the answer you wanted, so you're forum shopping to get the "right one" ? How nice of you. Le 20 mai 2014 17:37, "Jeevan Jose" jkadavoor@gmail.com a écrit :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people works?
Regards, Jee _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
What a kind communication! It gives me the impression that you are afraid to discuss matters outside of Commons.
The special role of Commons as a joint resource should occationally allow concerns to be raised outside the community of commonites. If concerns are not of a general nature, please at least deal with them in a friendly manner.
Regards, Thyge
2014-05-20 17:51 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
You didn't get the answer you wanted, so you're forum shopping to get the "right one" ? How nice of you. Le 20 mai 2014 17:37, "Jeevan Jose" jkadavoor@gmail.com a écrit :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people works?
Regards, Jee _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I can see a least 5 pages on Commons where this kind of matter can and should be raised. But Jee chose to send a mail on this mailing list. Jee is a seasoned contributor to Commons, and he has found those pages in the past. He knows our policies and this email was (in my opinion) an attempt to surf on the "Commons is broken" trend occuring around here.
Yes concerns can be raised outside the community of commonites, when those concerns coudl directly affect other projects. This is an internal problem, where Jee tried to enforce his vision of COM:IDENT, was reverted twice, and went on an bureaucrat's talk page to ask for revdel, outside of Commons usual ways... When he didn't get what he asked, he sent this email, and quitted: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jkadavoor&diff...
Now, I'm not really at ease with Odder's decision, and I think we (as a community) need to discuss that, in a civilized manner. This could have (and will, I hope ) happened on the pages meant for that, on Commons, without any unnecessary drama.
Pleclown
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
What a kind communication! It gives me the impression that you are afraid to discuss matters outside of Commons.
The special role of Commons as a joint resource should occationally allow concerns to be raised outside the community of commonites. If concerns are not of a general nature, please at least deal with them in a friendly manner.
Regards, Thyge
2014-05-20 17:51 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
You didn't get the answer you wanted, so you're forum shopping to get the "right one" ? How nice of you. Le 20 mai 2014 17:37, "Jeevan Jose" jkadavoor@gmail.com a écrit :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people works?
Regards, Jee _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hi all,
As an oversight, I'd like to give an advice first. When encountering a privacy matter that you believe falls under the oversight policy < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Oversight_policy#Use%3E you should probably contact directly oversight-commons@lists.wikimedia.org rather than linking the information on a public forum (or even on a talk page), i.e. if there is a real breach of privacy more people will see it :(.
That said, I fail to see what falls under the oversight policy as explained by Odder on his talk page. The only use case that come to mind is the first one *Removal of non-public personal information*, however by publishing the information the couple seems to agree, for now, to have this information published (as far as we know, they are not lying about their identity). I'd gladly suppress the personnal information if it is requested by the person concerned or if it was an obvious mistake.
As an administrator, it remains, [[COM:IDENT]] which is a guildeline on how to proceed with photography of identifiable person, however I don't see any photo in this discussion.
In the end I just think we are having this thread because of the topic being related to nudity (which is clearly a not consensual topic in our communities, probably because it is cultural) and not really because of any real breach of privacy. If I'm getting it wrong, I'm open to discussion.
2014-05-20 20:04 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
(...) Now, I'm not really at ease with Odder's decision, and I think we (as a community) need to discuss that, in a civilized manner. This could have (and will, I hope ) happened on the pages meant for that, on Commons, without any unnecessary drama.
@ Pipo Le Clown > Feel free to send an email to the oversight mailing list or start a discussion on Wikimedia Commons in order to explain your opinion. I believe the oversight team is open to community input.
Pleclown
Sincerely Pierre-Selim,
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
What a kind communication! It gives me the impression that you are afraid to discuss matters outside of Commons.
The special role of Commons as a joint resource should occationally allow concerns to be raised outside the community of commonites. If concerns
are
not of a general nature, please at least deal with them in a friendly manner.
Regards, Thyge
2014-05-20 17:51 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
You didn't get the answer you wanted, so you're forum shopping to get
the
"right one" ? How nice of you. Le 20 mai 2014 17:37, "Jeevan Jose" jkadavoor@gmail.com a écrit :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people works?
Regards, Jee _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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I do not understand why anyone would assume that the woman has agreed to this, without her actually, personally, saying that she has agreed to this.
Risker
On 20 May 2014 15:22, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Hi all,
As an oversight, I'd like to give an advice first. When encountering a privacy matter that you believe falls under the oversight policy < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Oversight_policy#Use%3E you should probably contact directly oversight-commons@lists.wikimedia.org rather than linking the information on a public forum (or even on a talk page), i.e. if there is a real breach of privacy more people will see it :(.
That said, I fail to see what falls under the oversight policy as explained by Odder on his talk page. The only use case that come to mind is the first one *Removal of non-public personal information*, however by publishing the information the couple seems to agree, for now, to have this information published (as far as we know, they are not lying about their identity). I'd gladly suppress the personnal information if it is requested by the person concerned or if it was an obvious mistake.
As an administrator, it remains, [[COM:IDENT]] which is a guildeline on how to proceed with photography of identifiable person, however I don't see any photo in this discussion.
In the end I just think we are having this thread because of the topic being related to nudity (which is clearly a not consensual topic in our communities, probably because it is cultural) and not really because of any real breach of privacy. If I'm getting it wrong, I'm open to discussion.
2014-05-20 20:04 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
(...) Now, I'm not really at ease with Odder's decision, and I think we (as a community) need to discuss that, in a civilized manner. This could have (and will, I hope ) happened on the pages meant for that, on Commons, without any unnecessary drama.
@ Pipo Le Clown > Feel free to send an email to the oversight mailing list or start a discussion on Wikimedia Commons in order to explain your opinion. I believe the oversight team is open to community input.
Pleclown
Sincerely Pierre-Selim,
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
What a kind communication! It gives me the impression that you are
afraid
to discuss matters outside of Commons.
The special role of Commons as a joint resource should occationally
allow
concerns to be raised outside the community of commonites. If concerns
are
not of a general nature, please at least deal with them in a friendly manner.
Regards, Thyge
2014-05-20 17:51 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
You didn't get the answer you wanted, so you're forum shopping to get
the
"right one" ? How nice of you. Le 20 mai 2014 17:37, "Jeevan Jose" jkadavoor@gmail.com a écrit :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people works?
Regards, Jee _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
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@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the implication of said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
@Pierre-Selim: After a visit on the website, my concerns have all vanished.
Pleclown
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I do not understand why anyone would assume that the woman has agreed to this, without her actually, personally, saying that she has agreed to this.
Risker
On 20 May 2014 15:22, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Hi all,
As an oversight, I'd like to give an advice first. When encountering a privacy matter that you believe falls under the oversight policy < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Oversight_policy#Use%3E you should
probably
contact directly oversight-commons@lists.wikimedia.org rather than
linking
the information on a public forum (or even on a talk page), i.e. if there is a real breach of privacy more people will see it :(.
That said, I fail to see what falls under the oversight policy as
explained
by Odder on his talk page. The only use case that come to mind is the
first
one *Removal of non-public personal information*, however by publishing
the
information the couple seems to agree, for now, to have this information published (as far as we know, they are not lying about their identity).
I'd
gladly suppress the personnal information if it is requested by the
person
concerned or if it was an obvious mistake.
As an administrator, it remains, [[COM:IDENT]] which is a guildeline on
how
to proceed with photography of identifiable person, however I don't see
any
photo in this discussion.
In the end I just think we are having this thread because of the topic being related to nudity (which is clearly a not consensual topic in our communities, probably because it is cultural) and not really because of
any
real breach of privacy. If I'm getting it wrong, I'm open to discussion.
2014-05-20 20:04 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
(...) Now, I'm not really at ease with Odder's decision, and I think we (as a community) need to discuss that, in a civilized manner. This could have (and will, I hope ) happened on the pages meant for that, on Commons, without any unnecessary drama.
@ Pipo Le Clown > Feel free to send an email to the oversight mailing
list
or start a discussion on Wikimedia Commons in order to explain your opinion. I believe the oversight team is open to community input.
Pleclown
Sincerely Pierre-Selim,
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
What a kind communication! It gives me the impression that you are
afraid
to discuss matters outside of Commons.
The special role of Commons as a joint resource should occationally
allow
concerns to be raised outside the community of commonites. If
concerns
are
not of a general nature, please at least deal with them in a friendly manner.
Regards, Thyge
2014-05-20 17:51 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
You didn't get the answer you wanted, so you're forum shopping to
get
the
"right one" ? How nice of you. Le 20 mai 2014 17:37, "Jeevan Jose" jkadavoor@gmail.com a
écrit :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people works?
Regards, Jee _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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2014-05-20 21:35 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the implication of said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
+1, I guess Odder (like me) also did his homework and did use this information to take his decision. Sorry, I've tried to give a complete answer, but it's never easy in a foreign language.
@Pierre-Selim: After a visit on the website, my concerns have all vanished.
Ok just a timeline problem, we did not had the same information at the time we wrote :-)
Pleclown
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:
I do not understand why anyone would assume that the woman has agreed to this, without her actually, personally, saying that she has agreed to
this.
Risker
On 20 May 2014 15:22, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Hi all,
As an oversight, I'd like to give an advice first. When encountering a privacy matter that you believe falls under the oversight policy < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Oversight_policy#Use%3E you should
probably
contact directly oversight-commons@lists.wikimedia.org rather than
linking
the information on a public forum (or even on a talk page), i.e. if
there
is a real breach of privacy more people will see it :(.
That said, I fail to see what falls under the oversight policy as
explained
by Odder on his talk page. The only use case that come to mind is the
first
one *Removal of non-public personal information*, however by publishing
the
information the couple seems to agree, for now, to have this
information
published (as far as we know, they are not lying about their identity).
I'd
gladly suppress the personnal information if it is requested by the
person
concerned or if it was an obvious mistake.
As an administrator, it remains, [[COM:IDENT]] which is a guildeline on
how
to proceed with photography of identifiable person, however I don't see
any
photo in this discussion.
In the end I just think we are having this thread because of the topic being related to nudity (which is clearly a not consensual topic in our communities, probably because it is cultural) and not really because of
any
real breach of privacy. If I'm getting it wrong, I'm open to
discussion.
2014-05-20 20:04 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
(...) Now, I'm not really at ease with Odder's decision, and I think we
(as a
community) need to discuss that, in a civilized manner. This could
have
(and will, I hope ) happened on the pages meant for that, on Commons, without any unnecessary drama.
@ Pipo Le Clown > Feel free to send an email to the oversight mailing
list
or start a discussion on Wikimedia Commons in order to explain your opinion. I believe the oversight team is open to community input.
Pleclown
Sincerely Pierre-Selim,
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Thyge ltl.privat@gmail.com wrote:
What a kind communication! It gives me the impression that you are
afraid
to discuss matters outside of Commons.
The special role of Commons as a joint resource should occationally
allow
concerns to be raised outside the community of commonites. If
concerns
are
not of a general nature, please at least deal with them in a
friendly
manner.
Regards, Thyge
2014-05-20 17:51 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
You didn't get the answer you wanted, so you're forum shopping to
get
the
"right one" ? How nice of you. Le 20 mai 2014 17:37, "Jeevan Jose" jkadavoor@gmail.com a
écrit :
> >
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Odder&oldid=12...
> > Is this the way Commons:Photographs of identifiable people
works?
> > Regards, > Jee > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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On 20 May 2014 15:43, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
2014-05-20 21:35 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the implication
of
said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
+1, I guess Odder (like me) also did his homework and did use this information to take his decision. Sorry, I've tried to give a complete answer, but it's never easy in a foreign language.
I repeat my initial statement, why are you assuming that the woman has given authorization for publication of images on Wikimedia Commons?
Risker
2014-05-20 22:03 GMT+02:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
On 20 May 2014 15:43, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
2014-05-20 21:35 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the
implication
of
said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
+1, I guess Odder (like me) also did his homework and did use this information to take his decision. Sorry, I've tried to give a complete answer, but it's never easy in a foreign language.
I repeat my initial statement, why are you assuming that the woman has given authorization for publication of images on Wikimedia Commons?
Please link to the images you are talking about, because to my own knowledge none have been published on Wikimedia Commons.
Risker _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Who said that there were images uploaded to Commons? There is a link to images offered as a "free sample". What I am disputing is one person's ability to claim authority to release photos of another person when the photos are taken in a non-public place. Given how common it is for women to find that their partners have been freely sharing nude images taken with the understanding that it was for the partner only, personal consent is important. There's also a big leap between "you can put it on your website" and "you can make it freely available on Wikimedia Commons".
Risker
On 20 May 2014 16:04, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
2014-05-20 22:03 GMT+02:00 Risker risker.wp@gmail.com:
On 20 May 2014 15:43, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
2014-05-20 21:35 GMT+02:00 Pipo Le Clown pleclown@gmail.com:
@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the
implication
of
said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
+1, I guess Odder (like me) also did his homework and did use this information to take his decision. Sorry, I've tried to give a complete answer, but it's never easy in a foreign language.
I repeat my initial statement, why are you assuming that the woman has given authorization for publication of images on Wikimedia Commons?
Please link to the images you are talking about, because to my own knowledge none have been published on Wikimedia Commons.
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@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the implication of said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
I don't think "there are pictures of someone on the internet" can in any circumstances imply "that person has given their consent for those pictures to be on the internet".
Even if it is clear that the person concerned gave permission for the picture to be taken, that is no evidence that they have given any consent for those pictures to be circulated.
Chris
Though in this case it does seem that Commons has given sound advice that any photos submitted should be accompanied by a model release.
If only more photos on Commons had model releases!
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.comwrote:
@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's
decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the implication of said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
I don't think "there are pictures of someone on the internet" can in any circumstances imply "that person has given their consent for those pictures to be on the internet".
Even if it is clear that the person concerned gave permission for the picture to be taken, that is no evidence that they have given any consent for those pictures to be circulated.
Chris
Thanks all for your opinions, suggestions and advice. I was away due to a personal emergency; just back home today. I read all the responses above, including Pierre-selim's advise on how to handle such cases in future. I agree, and my intention was not to ignore in Commons discussions and make a "commons is broken" rant as Pleclown complained above. I was in the midst of switching off my computer and run as one of my relative just admitted in hospital. The repeated revert on that page increased my blood pressure and I forwarded it to here as I know I can't participate in that thread for at least a few days.
I disagree with Pierre-selim's opinion that "In the end I just think we are having this thread because of the topic being related to nudity (which is clearly a not consensual topic in our communities, probably because it is cultural) and not really because of any real breach of privacy." As a husband of a woman who had undergone TAH-BSO at the age of twenty (ten years before our marriage), I'm well aware of the value of our reproductive system and the importance of educating common people about the healthy maintenance of them. I know how photographs are more helpful than graphical illustrations in some occasions. But we should be more careful on verifying whether the subjects are fully consented in such cases. Moreover, there is no need to reveal the identity of non notable persons in such cases.
(https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Smoking_Crack.jpg is another similar case where no relation to nudity; but clear real breach of privacy. There people even tried to revert Odder. Finally I had to bring it at AN to revedelete other versions. I still believe such a picture is not good for our projects as we have no evidence of consent and the person can be easily identifiable from the external links.)
Now I (glad to) see Russavia did some homework and made an alert to another crat and (as a result) most links are removed. ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MichaelMaggs#Paedophile_advocat... ).
Regards, Jee
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.comwrote:
Though in this case it does seem that Commons has given sound advice that any photos submitted should be accompanied by a model release.
If only more photos on Commons had model releases!
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.comwrote:
@Risker: I was thinking the same, hence my disagreement with Odder's
decision. But I've visited the linked website (NSFW) and one can only assume that the person on the pictures is fully aware of the implication of said photos on the internet and willing to see them diffused.
I don't think "there are pictures of someone on the internet" can in any circumstances imply "that person has given their consent for those
pictures
to be on the internet".
Even if it is clear that the person concerned gave permission for the picture to be taken, that is no evidence that they have given any consent for those pictures to be circulated.
Chris
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