[Foundation-l] Re: Resignation as CRO

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Michael Snow

18 Aug 2005 18 Aug '05

12:43 a.m.

I normally try to avoid "me too" posts, but I feel I should speak up to say that I agree with virtually everything Erik Zachte wrote, and thank him immensely for taking the time to compose that thoughtful message. I want to add some thoughts on the transparency issue he raised. A very critical part of managing any organization, especially one as committed to ideals of openness as Wikimedia, is reporting back to everyone about your activities. Given the transparency of most actions on a wiki, producing such reports is especially important for off-wiki activity. In particular this applies to the board, the officers (including those of local chapters), and the developers. I trust all of these people and the processes by which they were chosen, but we still need to hear from all of them regularly about their work. The proliferation of non-public mailing lists and wikis adds to the concern. I understand that some matters cannot be announced at the outset, and that deliberation and delay may allow for a more thorough report. But on the other hand, disappearing behind closed doors, not to be heard from again, is not an acceptable option. With the developers this is a longstanding problem, and they struggle constantly with more pressing issues, like a simple lack of manpower (womanpower would certainly do as well if we can recruit some female developers). I'm guessing we could use three or four times as many developers before we'd have enough of them to spare one to spend much time reporting. I think most people are willing to give a lot of slack here as long as the sites keep running. For the rest, because the issues they deal with are more frequently "political", people will be more uncomfortable with a lack of transparency. I see some effort to deal with this, but I'm afraid that even among those of us who are deeply interested enough to be on this list, people frequently feel out of the loop on issues of concern to them. I have tried to contribute a little myself toward more thorough reporting (and hope to help more in the future), but the overall task is a full-time job and I already have one of those. Keeping people informed is essential to sustaining trust, and makes a tremendous difference in whether they will accept the decisions you make. --Michael Snow

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Anthere

18 Aug 18 Aug

6:54 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Information flow

Michael Snow wrote:

...

Right Now that several people have expressed their feeling we are non transparent, I would like that they go further than just stating a situation, and make suggestions to improve. Michael is mentionning that "with the developers, they struggle constantly with more pressing issues". And that "we could use three or four times as many developers". Well, this is also one of our problems. We are also struggling with more pressing issues. We would also benefit of help, because we also lack wo-man power. And as you mention, taking care of communication could also be a full-time job and aside from Jimbo, both Angela and I also have one of those. I have a problem with the equation board : amount of time spent answering personal mails + amount of time spend on OTRS + amount of time spent writing board meeting reports + amount of time spent writing to this list + amount of time spent on setting up a wikimedia foundation website + amount of time spent writing Quarto With Wikipedians : we are not informed. It does not fit :-) So my questions are * exactly on which topic do you feel you are not informed ? Please cite some examples of issues where we have been failing ? Was the information missing related to legal issues ? To partnership ? To budget ? * please cite some examples of how we could inform you. Please not "I want to be more informed", but HOW, WHERE, WHEN and under WHICH form. Example : some french editors complained during the year that I did not inform them enough on the village pump. But there are more than 300 projects. Do you expect us to go ourselves to possibly 50 of the biggest ones to inform people ? It is just impossible. So, is the solution to find human relays *appointed* to do that, or should we make a big communication campaign to explain to people where to go ? I intend to try to write a FAQ on the Foundation website, do you think it can help ? Will it if no one goes there to read it ? The Quarto takes a lot of time and is distributing information very slowly. But at least, it ensure translation in major languages. Do you think we need to add an intermediate level (such as a weekly or a monthly ?) Since you make the sign post, it may be that you feel like suggesting the Foundation make a sign post itself. But then, you need to help us find sustainable ways to do it. Because as you mentionned it, it takes a LOT of time. I know I can not alone add in my own timetable the necessarily time to do 4-5 articles per week alone. Not without help. Not in a language which is not my mother language. And as you might very well be aware yourself, most articles do not come all by themselves. Most will be written by yourself. In the case of Quarto, I know we have to hunt for authors each time, or write ourselves. * are you yourself ready to help distribute the information ? How many times did you yourself copied an information mentionned on that list on your own village pump ? How many times did you help translate the foundation website or the Quarto ? How many times did you yourself provide us information that might be useful ? It is good to point out to a problem, but it is even better to try to help find some solutions. I also think that most of the time, when you think "I am not informed", it is only that you heard nothing, so feel some stuff is going undersground and you are kept away of it. But most of the time, it is that there is just nothing very special to report. What are my memories of the big stuff of the past two months ? Well, from the financial perspective * trying to find ways so that Mav get hand on all financial papers, so that we can get a decent budget to work on. * setting up the budget (this has been published here) * starting a fundraising (this is openly discussed here) Grant perspective * major points reported here in the board report * discussion of the european grant by chapters coordinated by Danny (reported here) Technical perspective * yahoo servers soon to be on (it was reported here) * the recent downtime (asked to developers to explain why to the community, no report was done here. Well, I am not the police. Business perspective * mostly reported in the board meeting Wikimania * took us most of the past 2 months in truth. Anyone could report on what happened. Pictures are on Flickr. Presentations available as well. * incidently, sponsorship by OSI was announced here. Officers and co * I announced myself we were heading toward having a new officer and new mailing list (prematuraly dead in the server crash) * new chapters (pl, announced here) Quarto * no quarto because Sj has been very very busy with Wikimania, and myself quite busy with my presentation and my real life and all related issues. Legal considerations * well, since you are on the legal list, do you think anything needs reporting here ? I do not. On which topics do you think things are missing ? Do you guys realise that the Foundation is basically 10 people while the editors are basically thousands ???? In any reasonable organisation, there would already be a PR person whose job is 100% communication work. We do not have this, but any of you can help. So, it would be nice that you just explain where things are failing exactly, where energy should be put and best that you yourself help. ------- Now, since I said it would be nice to explain exactly where things are failing, please also consider MY own perspective. Yesterday, several people here, and on irc said "the german money is not spent. It should be. Why is it not ?" Some german answer "how can we make a budget if the foundation isn't able or willing to work with us on reasonable ways to spend the money? We asked several times, what is needed and never got an answer. the answer "give us the money" is not appropriate" With my perception look at my mail http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-August/003915.html Look at answers given to it. There are none whatsoever. From my perspective, not only did I lose time writting the mail, but I do not have the slightest beginning of more information. *I* also feel not informed at all. So... what will I do ? Probably nothing :-) Similarly, I would love that officers get used to making a weekly or monthly reporting. A summary of all stuff taking care of (or not taking care of) during a certain amount of time. It would both inform us and make it easier to inform you. But again, I am not their boss and if they do not feel like doing it... I only know these are some of the stuff we did in firms I have been working in, and that help. Anthere

Delphine Ménard

8:52 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Information flow

On 8/18/05, Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote: I [snipped] this post, but on the whole I agree with every single question asked and point made.

...

* exactly on which topic do you feel you are not informed ? Please cite some examples of issues where we have been failing ? Was the information missing related to legal issues ? To partnership ? To budget ?

...

* please cite some examples of how we could inform you. Please not "I want to be more informed", but HOW, WHERE, WHEN and under WHICH form.

Excellent questions. I would also like to know where the information is lacking. This is, at least, the best way to start improving.

...

Do you guys realise that the Foundation is basically 10 people while the editors are basically thousands ???? In any reasonable organisation, there would already be a PR person whose job is 100% communication work. We do not have this, but any of you can help. So, it would be nice that you just explain where things are failing exactly, where energy should be put and best that you yourself help.

And yes again. We have come to a point where all of those involved in the organisation simply do not have the time, or even the skills, to have an effective communication policy, and where the "end users" are asking for more and more information. Having someone do that job on a full-time basis is the least we could ask for. [snip]

...

We asked several times, what is needed and never got an answer. the answer "give us the money" is not appropriate" With my perception look at my mail http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-August/003915.html Look at answers given to it. There are none whatsoever. From my perspective, not only did I lose time writting the mail, but I do not have the slightest beginning of more information. *I* also feel not informed at all.

I might be stepping on some toes here, but I found your e-mail very informative, and it was, as I understand it, actually answering the question that was being asked, ie. "what could the Foundation need that we could look into to see its feasibility". However, please, you wrote it yesterday, give people a chance to look at the proposals you made and give you an intelligent answer. A "thanx for these ideas, we'll be looking into them" certainly would have been appropriate, but information can also take time to register, please give at least 24 hours before saying no-one answers. Apart from that little thing, I am as curious as you are to see what information is lacking and will definitely welcome ideas on how to improve it. Best, Delphine -- ~notafish

Anthere

10:36 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

Delphine Ménard wrote:

...

I am patiently waiting :-) Will re-ask the question in a month if necessary :-) The best German chapter can do right now, if not sure how to spent it, is to place it in special accounts so that the money works and generate more money. Just pick up a bank account where the money can be freed within 15 days. Ant PS : when you are done, please do the same with my personal bank accounts :-)

Dan Grey

10:05 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Information flow

On 18/08/05, Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Now that several people have expressed their feeling we are non transparent, I would like that they go further than just stating a situation, and make suggestions to improve. Michael is mentionning that "with the developers, they struggle constantly with more pressing issues". And that "we could use three or four times as many developers".

Hackers rarely communicate outside of themselves. Fact of life in that arena. However, the server log: http://wp.wikidev.net/Server_admin_log isn't too bad.

...

I have a problem with the equation board : amount of time spent answering personal mails + amount of time spend on OTRS + amount of time spent writing board meeting reports + amount of time spent writing to this list + amount of time spent on setting up a wikimedia foundation website + amount of time spent writing Quarto With Wikipedians : we are not informed. It does not fit :-) So my questions are * exactly on which topic do you feel you are not informed ?

Everything. The WMF wiki is a shambles and so are the related meta pages. I suspect a lot of the information people want *is* actually out there, it's just very hard to find.

...

* please cite some examples of how we could inform you. Please not "I want to be more informed", but HOW, WHERE, WHEN and under WHICH form.

1. Start the announce-l list, and use it 2. Make the WMF wiki useful 3. I understand that there is now code to transclude templates between wikis. This would make "broadcasting" info to individual wikis's village pumps easy, if it were to be enabled. This would be *extremely* powerful. 4. Y'know, a "board and officers" blog would be very useful. Perhaps the blogging extension could be turned on on the WMF wiki. As someone who is a) disappointed with the foundation and it's lack of openess, real or percieved, and b) is a whizz with wikis and how to make them easy-to-follow, I would be very happy to sort out the WMF wiki. Dan

Anthere

11:09 a.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

Dan Grey wrote:

...

On 18/08/05, Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

Hackers rarely communicate outside of themselves. Fact of life in that arena. However, the server log: http://wp.wikidev.net/Server_admin_log isn't too bad.

What is funny is that it is assumed allright that developers only communicate in their area, but it is not allright for others. Why ?

...

Everything. The WMF wiki is a shambles and so are the related meta pages.

Everything is frankly not a valuable answer :) Please be more specific. There is so much to do that we CAN NOT start on everything all at once. I do not know what a shamble is, but I can imagine. When you say "so are related meta pages", I do not follow you. Please again be more specific. -------- Since you consider you are lacking information on every point, let's start by one example to try to evaluate the damage. Here is a meta page listing the board meeting reports : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Board_meetings Look at it please. On the right side, there is a nice and clear navigation tool, leading you to major pages. Is that navigation tool sufficient ? Or not ? Suggestion for improvement ? On the left, a very very very straight forward and clear list of all board meeting held. Good news, when you click on the links, it actually goes somewhere... and there, you will find each time a summary of each board meeting, made by Angela (who, incidently, is no more secretary. She was a good one. Did anyone ever thanked her for taking the time to organise our meetings ? take the time to thank her for these very clear reports ? Well, she is no more secretary. I hope next reports will be as accurate and clear than Angela's. Thanks Angela :-)). The reports are hosted on the Foundation website. Are they sufficient ? if not sufficient, please explain Tim Shell how they can be improved, for he will now be our secretary Are they clear enough ? If not, please explain how to clarify them. Are they translated enough ? Probably not. Well, The board only speaks two languages, so please help us find more people to help with translation. Are they easy to find enough ? Probably not. What do you suggest ? I have been caressing the idea of re-doing all the foundation meta pages and foundation website pages for clearer access, but could never find the time to do it yet. Are they well advertised ? Angela mentionned all of the board meeting on this mailing list. Do we need more place to advertise these for example? Or relays ? Did you yourself advertised them on wikinews ?

...

I suspect a lot of the information people want *is* actually out there, it's just very hard to find.

* please cite some examples of how we could inform you. Please not "I want to be more informed", but HOW, WHERE, WHEN and under WHICH form.

1. Start the announce-l list, and use it

It is unclear for me if the announce list should be the list for the foundation to announce things. Right now, we announce things on this mailing list, which allow you to comment on what is announced (while announce-l will not allow this). But I am open to this suggestion.

...

2. Make the WMF wiki useful

Ah, good point. Now, next good point : who is concerned ? How many people are editing this website ? Are you yourself an editor over there ? Did you help for any of the translations done there ? Any one can help with translation as these are done on meta.

...

3. I understand that there is now code to transclude templates between wikis. This would make "broadcasting" info to individual wikis's village pumps easy, if it were to be enabled. This would be *extremely* powerful.

I absolutely agree. I am sorry to say I know nothing about these new templates. I am definitly interested by the prospect. Can you tell me more about this ?

...

4. Y'know, a "board and officers" blog would be very useful. Perhaps the blogging extension could be turned on on the WMF wiki.

I also agree. This has been discussed a year ago, and not kept. I would agree it might be a solution. This said, a blog only lives because people think of adding stuff to it. On the WMF, I started a news template which might be a sort of a blog (except that it is not). Look : http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home It is in the right side, blue background. It intends to give short news of major events. Now, two issues about this First, do people think of going there to read information (or to read Quarto ?). I fear not. So, what do you suggest we do to push people to come here for information ? Having more news will certainly help. Second, this is definitely a place for board, officers and chapters to add information. Overall, chapters included, that might sum up to 30 people. The fact is few of them think of adding information here. How to clarify the fact they can ?

...

As someone who is a) disappointed with the foundation and it's lack of openess, real or percieved, and b) is a whizz with wikis and how to make them easy-to-follow, I would be very happy to sort out the WMF wiki.

Sorry, I am not sure I understand well what you wrote. What does "being a whizz with wikis" mean, and what do you mean by "sort out the WMF wiki" ? Do you mean to close it, or do you mean to participate to help its development ? If you have ideas about developping it, your help will be welcome. Be certain of that Dan.

...

Dan

W. Guy Finley

12:57 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

On 8/18/05 6:09 AM, "Anthere" <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Dan Grey wrote:

On 18/08/05, Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

Hackers rarely communicate outside of themselves. Fact of life in that arena. However, the server log: http://wp.wikidev.net/Server_admin_log isn't too bad.

What is funny is that it is assumed allright that developers only communicate in their area, but it is not allright for others. Why ?

If you're saying that because the developers communicate in their area or in somewhat of a closed fashion then it's okay for the board I think you would be sadly mistaken. The developers weren't elected by the community to represent them. The developers are only working on specific technology issues whereas the board has oversight of the whole thing. I made reference to this before Anthere but let me put it bluntly - you have some work to do on boardsmanship. Chiding those you represent for not having complete enough complaints is not going to endear you to any hearts nor help anything. The board's position is one of governance, it shouldn't be making day to day decisions on things that need to be run, that's what officers are for. Those officers should have clearly defined job responsibilities set by the board and if they aren't living up to them then the board, as a board, should give them direction. Individual board members have NO power outside of their vote in a duly convened board meeting. When one of your constituents says to you that he doesn't feel you are transparent, you don't insist on a dissertation on where you aren't transparent, you take that feedback and you do that YOURSELF and determine if it's valid and if it's something that can be used. I'll give you a hint though, he's not the only one that has said you're not being transparent. When boards get into "shell" mode or the "us against them mode" is when things get dangerous and you start to lose site of what your underlying purpose is. Long and short of it, listen to complaints even if you think they're from crackpots. Don't tell the crackpots they're crackpots just say "think you very much, I'll consider that". When there's a lot of them don't resort to private IRC chats, emails amongst each other, or closed board meetings to consider the issue. Worst of all, don't tell people "we made a decision on this and it will be announced in a few days" -- nothing says to people more "hey, we did this in private and guess what, you're not good enough to know what we decided yet or you would already know." Just my advice after having served many years on many different boards of various kinds. --Guy (en User:Wgfinley)

Delphine Ménard

1:58 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

On 8/18/05, W. Guy Finley <wgfinley(a)dynascope.com> wrote: [snip]

...

I made reference to this before Anthere but let me put it bluntly - you have some work to do on boardsmanship. Chiding those you represent for not having complete enough complaints is not going to endear you to any hearts nor help anything. The board's position is one of governance, it shouldn't be making day to day decisions on things that need to be run, that's what officers are for. Those officers should have clearly defined job responsibilities set by the board and if they aren't living up to them then the board, as a board, should give them direction. Individual board members have NO power outside of their vote in a duly convened board meeting.

Although I agree with you on the background of this all, I believe that we as a community are not cutting board members enough slack as is, particularly to the ones who actually try and get some information out as elected representatives, Angela and Florence. This whole thread and the various ones going on on this list or on other lists make me think that we have reached a point where we are redifining, or rather *finally defining* what the board should do/not do, what officers are for/are not for, what local chapter can/cannot do, in short, what this organisation is all about. I see us as an organisation still struggling to find the balance between too much information and not enough information, struggling to define whose role is what and what can be achieve, where we want to go and how we get there. Some people are impatient, others are too silent, others again too sporadic. Some criticize easily, others constructively, others just don't care at all. I personally strongly believe that the organisation *is not* a wiki, that the learning process is longer and that unfortunately, when you make a mistake, nobody can just revert what mistake you have made, you have to assume the consequences. In that, I believe our actual board has done a good job. I can understand that they feel a bit lonely sometimes, as there is no "edit" button on whatever decision they make, and they are indeed carrying the weight of it on their shoulders. The only *wiki* thing I personally would allow in this case is "assume good faith", and if Florence's way of trying to learn how to do things well is not of your liking, please, do share with her your experience as "member having served many years on many different boards of various kinds", so that she, and all of us, can benefit from it. Escalating in ping-pong scheme: "you this" "but you that!" is, in my opinion, not the best way to go about it. Florence voiced it plainly enough, and I believe that the near future will come to emphasize it, at some point it does take professional advice and time (ie. a full-time job - or full time job*s*) to make things go the way they should be going. If we (including board members by pointing out as Florence did the problems they encounter) can help finding ways on how we can solve the problems, and allow the board members and officials to have enough time to do what they should be doing (and for which I completely agree with you) then, I think that we should try and do that. Best, Delphine -- ~notafish

Andrew Lih

2:50 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

On 8/18/05, Delphine Ménard <notafishz(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I personally strongly believe that the organisation *is not* a wiki, that the learning process is longer and that unfortunately, when you make a mistake, nobody can just revert what mistake you have made, you have to assume the consequences. In that, I believe our actual board has done a good job. I can understand that they feel a bit lonely sometimes, as there is no "edit" button on whatever decision they make, and they are indeed carrying the weight of it on their shoulders. The only *wiki* thing I personally would allow in this case is "assume good faith" ...

I'm glad someone finally pointed this out - a wiki governs the mechanics for collaborative document writing. It does not provide a blueprint for running a legal entity with financial obligations and time sensitive decision making. As Delphine said, there are things from the spirit of wiki that we can and should carry over - transparency, volunteerism (self-identification for tasks), assume good faith. Others, like phantom authority and rollback (anyone/everyone having veto-power) don't have a place at the board/officer level. To sooner we realize not all wiki concepts map over, the better. -Andrew (User:Fuzheado)

W. Guy Finley

9:57 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

On 8/18/05 8:58 AM, "Delphine Ménard" <notafishz(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 8/18/05, W. Guy Finley <wgfinley(a)dynascope.com> wrote: [snip]

I couldn't agree with you more Delphine, those are all legitimate points. I just consider it unfortunate that someone had to resign out of all this. I think there needs to be some effort put into the structure of the organization, define what the roles are and then judge based on those definitions. It just seems to me that Erik Moeller wasn't given that opportunity. Granted, he resigned, but I fully understand his reasons. --Guy (en user: Wgfinley)

Dan Grey

2:17 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

On 18/08/05, Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

What is funny is that it is assumed allright that developers only communicate in their area, but it is not allright for others. Why ?

We all know the devs work very hard as the results are right in front of us. So I think many of us realise that while better communication with the devs would be nice, it's not essential. However, few people know what the board is for or even that it exists. But as I understand it, you want us to give you $200,000. Well, that makes me want to know more about who you are and what you do.

...

Everything is frankly not a valuable answer :) Please be more specific. There is so much to do that we CAN NOT start on everything all at once.

Yes, it is. *Everything* about the board could be improved: As Erik Z says, publish full logs of meetings (sans sensitive information). Make sure everyone knows where to find said logs. How to communicate with the board. Who the board are. What they do.

...

When you say "so are related meta pages", I do not follow you. Please again be more specific.

This is relatively minor; however meta isn't locked so I can probably sort this out myself :-).

...

Snip stuff about the WMF wiki.

See below.

...

1. Start the announce-l list, and use it

It is unclear for me if the announce list should be the list for the foundation to announce things.

That can be sorted out, I'm sure.

...

2. Make the WMF wiki useful

WMF is a closed wiki so no, I do not have access.

...

I absolutely agree. I am sorry to say I know nothing about these new templates. I am definitly interested by the prospect. Can you tell me more about this ?

No, I'm not a dev. I could even be wrong on this. Ask on wikitech-l or in #wikimedia-tech.

...

4. Y'know, a "board and officers" blog would be very useful. Perhaps the blogging extension could be turned on on the WMF wiki.

All true, and the news template there is good.

...

It intends to give short news of major events. Now, two issues about this First, do people think of going there to read information (or to read Quarto ?). I fear not. So, what do you suggest we do to push people to come here for information ?

Advertise it everywhere. In the Wikipedia:About (or whatever it's called) and the equivalent in the other projects, in the new free-content page on wp.en, on the front of meta in big writing, and everytime there is a bit of foundation news, don't tell people the whole story here - just give a link to the WMF wiki. The aim is to raise awareness - to make people think "oh, I know where to get the latest news or to find out things, the WMF wiki!".

...

Second, this is definitely a place for board, officers and chapters to add information. Overall, chapters included, that might sum up to 30 people. The fact is few of them think of adding information here. How to clarify the fact they can ?

Chapter-l is a very good idea, and I hope that it will help here. Use it to ask people!

...

I'm not going to sit here and type out every last change that needs to be made on the WMF wiki, then wait for "approval". My time is more valuable than that. I'm simply saying this: there is a lot wrong with that site, and I know how to fix it. Let me. I have made 13,000 edits across two projects, and I'm an admin on both. I think that says you can trust me. And if you don't like the results - it's a wiki! Anything can be undone. Dan

Anthere

2:57 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

Dan Grey wrote:

...

Yo, send me your email adress (the one to use on the WMF wiki) to Anthere9 AT yahoo.com and you'll get an account there. ant

Puddl Duk

2:33 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Information flow

...

Michael Snow wrote: ...

I want to add some thoughts on the transparency issue he raised. A very critical part of managing any organization, especially one as committed to ideals of openness as Wikimedia, is reporting back to everyone about your activities. Given the transparency of most actions on a wiki, producing such reports is especially important for off-wiki activity. In particular this applies to the board, the officers (including those of local chapters), and the developers. I trust all of these people and the processes by which they were chosen, but we still need to hear from all of them regularly about their work. The proliferation of non-public mailing lists and wikis adds to the concern. I understand that some matters cannot be announced at the outset, and that deliberation and delay may allow for a more thorough report. But on the other hand, disappearing behind closed doors, not to be heard from again, is not an acceptable option.

...

Keeping people informed is essential to sustaining trust, and makes a tremendous difference in whether they will accept the decisions you

make.

--Michael Snow

Right Now that several people have expressed their feeling we are non transparent, I would like that they go further than just stating a situation, and make suggestions to improve.

Well, let's start with the non-public mailing lists. I'm aware of the leagal one. What other non-public mailing lists are there (I think Erik mentioned one with ''all the smartest people'' on it). Where are these list documented, who are the members, and maybe, to ease some concerns and build trust, what were the last twently thread topics? ...

...

This is an amazing statement, how can we ask for information that is seceret and that we don't know about? * please cite some examples of how we could inform you. Please not "I

...

want to be more informed", but HOW, WHERE, WHEN and under WHICH form.

Well, an open and transparent wiki comes to mind. ... On which topics do you think things are missing ? Again, how can we ask for information that is seceret and that we don't know about? ... Anthere I 'm suprised at the tone of your reply, Anthere. Longtime editors like Michael, who've invested hundreds, if not thousands of hours in the project don't deserve to be snapped at when they politely express concerns over a lack of openess.

Anthere

4:33 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

Puddl Duk wrote:

...

This is an amazing statement, how can we ask for information that is seceret and that we don't know about?

True. Good point. I have been thinking of one secret information you might not be aware of, which I think I can disclose to you. Please bend over so that I can say it very softly and privately in your ear (in case you are a tall guy for I am a small size person). Do not repeat please. <small>We have some private mailing lists or channels to discuss quietly, 'cause there are a couple of unpleasant individuals on this mailing list, whose mails are seemingly limited to criticizing and adding fire on the oil. And we dare not kicking them of the list. I know, we are weak...</small> I'll let Angela answer next points that might concern you. Ant

Puddl Duk

4:50 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

On 8/18/05, Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Puddl Duk wrote:

This is an amazing statement, how can we ask for information that is

seceret

and that we don't know about?

I'm sorry you've answered this way, and hope my preception that you are mocking me or my question is wrong. It was an honest question not intended to criticise or throw oil on the fire.

Christopher Mahan

4:59 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

--- Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Please bend over so that I can say it very softly and privately in

"Please lower your head to my level" would have been a better turn of phrase. :)

...

<small>We have some private mailing lists or channels to discuss quietly, 'cause there are a couple of unpleasant individuals on this mailing list, whose mails are seemingly limited to criticizing and adding fire on the oil. And we dare not kicking them of the list. I know, we are weak...</small>

Ant, this statement, while true I am sure, does nothing to instill confidence. In fact, it heightens an atmosphere of suspicion which already seems to exist. The reason people are on this mailing list is that they really care about wikipedia. Some are better in english than others; and some are more politically astute than others. I personally welcome all comments, including the criticizing and adding oil to the fire. Sometimes, that's what it takes to get the ball rolling. Also, in some cultures and for some people individually, not speaking is a form of assent, and speaking is reserved for pointing out problems. This may make some people seem to only criticize, when in fact they fully support and are involved. If one or more individuals are seriously getting in the way of business getting done, let the rest of us know. And let them know. But, please, be diplomatic. Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan(a)yahoo.com chris.mahan(a)gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Anthere

8:08 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

Christopher Mahan wrote:

...

--- Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

Please bend over so that I can say it very softly and privately in

"Please lower your head to my level" would have been a better turn of phrase. :)

I talked privately with Puddl. My mail and yours raised a new light on the issue. I apologied to him and hopefully we understand each other better. My apologies to readers of this list, but I am currently too drained out for good discussion. I am *supposed* to be on wikibreak. ant

Puddl Duk

8:23 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Information flow

On 8/18/05, Christopher Mahan <chris_mahan(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

...

--- Anthere <anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Please bend over so that I can say it very softly and privately in

... Also, in some cultures and for some people individually, not speaking is a

...

form of assent, and speaking is reserved for pointing out problems. This may make some people seem to only criticize, when in fact they fully support and are involved. Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan(a)yahoo.com chris.mahan(a)gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/

This is very true or me. I think a thousand things that Anthere does are great, but have never said so. The only interaction we've had involves unpleasantness, and are 'one in a thousand' events. I can easily see (now that Chris has pointed this out) how Anthere could view my cumulative posts as a personal attack, that wasn't my intention. Sorry Anthere if you got this impression. I'll try to say some nice things once in a while :)

James D. Forrester

4:39 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] Information flow

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Puddl Duk wrote:

...

Well, let's start with the non-public mailing lists. I'm aware of the leagal one. What other non-public mailing lists are there[?]

In the interests of openness and transparency, although I'm not really sure it quite applies in this context, I hereby note that there is a private mailing list for the Arbitration Committee of the English Wikipedia, and has been for over 20 months now. The members of this are the Arbitrators as well as Jimbo and a few former Arbitrators who continue to give their insight. The need for the list's private status is, I would think, self-evident, and it gets referred to every now and then by people on, say, wikien-l, so it's existance is obviously somewhat well-known. Yours, - -- James D. Forrester Wikimedia : [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] E-Mail : james(a)jdforrester.org IM (MSN) : jamesdforrester(a)hotmail.com

...PGP SIGNATURE...

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Tim Starling

19 Aug 19 Aug

9:39 p.m.

New subject: [Foundation-l] private-l (was Re: Information flow)

Puddl Duk wrote:

...

I assume you mean private-l. I'm not sure where Erik said that it had all the smartest people on it, but he did mention that he was sending his Google report to it. Anyway, it sounds like a fair request to me. The members are: Anthere Angela Brion Vibber Domas Mituzas Elian Jason Richey Jens Frank Jeronim Jimmy Wales Kate Mark Bergsma Erik Moeller Sannse Tim Starling Basically the sysadmins plus a few extras. The last 20 subject lines are as follows, in reverse chronological order, with explanatory text added in square brackets where necessary: Hardware donations Fwd: "Powered by MediaWiki" Badge Questions mail.wikimedia.org offline; Kennisnet support issues Google report Servers proposal, about France site Fwd: interview [hardware tech] Wikimedia domain expirations Request for alteration to mailing list archives pascal.knams.wikimedia.org down; Kennisnet contact? (no subject) [Wapedia] WikiMania Hacking Days Fwd: RE: Potential copyright violation in Wikipedia Fwd: Access to Wikipedia dumps Fwd: Wikipedia privacy issue Mirror Wikipedia Yahoo cluster and policies Wikimedia/Bomis [cc'ed email to colocation facility] Fwd: Re: Lifting of IP Block Wikipedia machines [Yahoo] Sygate warning That takes us back about 6 weeks. As you can see, the topics are mostly technical. In summary, the list consists of: * Dealings with external organisations which are required by those external organisation to be kept confidential * Technical information which is security-sensitive * Privacy-related issues * The occasional miscellaneous post The list only allows members to post, so please direct queries on these issues to the usual mailing addresses. Sannse, Elian and the Board handle incoming email requests using OTRS, and pass them on to private-l if they think the issue would benefit from discussion with that audience. -- Tim Starling

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19 comments

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participants (10)

Andrew Lih
Anthere
Christopher Mahan
Dan Grey
Delphine Ménard
James D. Forrester
Michael Snow
Puddl Duk
Tim Starling
W. Guy Finley