Hi.
I want to tell about copyright problems in Ukrainian Wikipedia. (sorry for my non-pure English, I believe that somebody will understand me)
Sysops of uk-wp abuse copyright uploading images with wrong licences. Some of them uploads non-free images with free licence. Other ones use fairuses in templates and userpages. And you may upload ANY image and put license {{Fairuse in}} and image will stay on Wikipedia during months.
Many images has no source or no author information. There are also many images without fairuse rationale (FUR) and without sources or licences.
There are also articles from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, Ukrainian Soviet Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Mining Encyclopedia and others. I wrote some RfArb's about copyright for this books, but Arbitrators said me that they are not under copyright (but I don't think so).
About images: In 2007, when I was sysop of uk-wp, I tagged hundreds of images and after few months I deleted them. After my desysoping (I think it was bureaucrats' mistake) we can observe "deletion wars" between sysops: one of them (Albedo) deleted images as no licenced and other one (A1) restored them; and last day they repeat. So some images was deleted and restored three times. Albedo in January put empty templates for fair-use rationale to hundreds of images and in February he was desysopped (not only for dealing with images but it was one of reasons). Then there was many images with nld, nsd templates, and nobody delete them. I told about it on the IRC channel #wikipedia-ru, but some of users told about this to Ukrainian admins. After it some of them spy upon me on IRC channels (stewards and ru) to I don't blurt out something about copyrights.
So, Ukrainian Wikipedia has many images with wrong licences and some users reupload these images to Commons but Commons' admins deleted images. And users don't understand why and blame me (I am Commons' sysop). Btw, after this my comment: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=11881974 some users on IRC blame me: "You discredit uk-wp" and some admins don't speak with me after that.. Then I suffer :'(
But last week I had some conflict with one of sysops (Turzh): he made edit war (twice revert my edits without comments) and then protect article. I wrote Arbcom request about it, but it is not accepted yet. In request I wrote also: "There are hundreds images with nld and nsd. Sysops must deal with them instead of edit warring". And then he begin "deals" with these images. I was wandered: on some images he replace {{nld}} with {{Fairuse in}}, in other ones - replaced CC-BY-SA with PD-self. Then he begins to upload images with license CC-BY-SA from the site sobory.ru , but author allows only non-commercial usage: see (OTRS ticket#2008070810020169). I ask that sysop to delete these images because such permission is unappropriate but he continued upload images. Today I ask him again to delete it (because images with free license maybe uploaded by any user to Commons; and I as Commons' sysop care about purity of project), but he said that he not uploaded it in Commons, it is uk-wiki, and he does what he want. Then I put templates {{db}} to some images but he revert tagging, protect some articles and blocked me for 24 hours. And he wrote ultimatum: "if somebody unblock Ahonc that I'll leave Wikipedia", that's why another admins fear to unblock me, because Turzh will leave wiki and later other users will be said about that sysop: "Oh, look, it is that guy, due to him Turzh left Wikipedia"...
I suggest to emergency desysop of user Turzh (and maybe some others, i.e. A1, who also abuse EDP); block him for copyright abusing; unblock me.
And also I propose to forbid upload images to uk-wp (such as in Spanish wiki) because sysops don't know how to deal with them.
Hmm. This is interesting. I suggest we get a posse of commons admins together to check these allegedly suspect images out systematically.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:18:39 +0300 From: ahonc.ua@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
Hi.
I want to tell about copyright problems in Ukrainian Wikipedia. (sorry for my non-pure English, I believe that somebody will understand me)
Sysops of uk-wp abuse copyright uploading images with wrong licences. Some of them uploads non-free images with free licence. Other ones use fairuses in templates and userpages. And you may upload ANY image and put license {{Fairuse in}} and image will stay on Wikipedia during months.
Many images has no source or no author information. There are also many images without fairuse rationale (FUR) and without sources or licences.
There are also articles from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, Ukrainian Soviet Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Mining Encyclopedia and others. I wrote some RfArb's about copyright for this books, but Arbitrators said me that they are not under copyright (but I don't think so).
About images: In 2007, when I was sysop of uk-wp, I tagged hundreds of images and after few months I deleted them. After my desysoping (I think it was bureaucrats' mistake) we can observe "deletion wars" between sysops: one of them (Albedo) deleted images as no licenced and other one (A1) restored them; and last day they repeat. So some images was deleted and restored three times. Albedo in January put empty templates for fair-use rationale to hundreds of images and in February he was desysopped (not only for dealing with images but it was one of reasons). Then there was many images with nld, nsd templates, and nobody delete them. I told about it on the IRC channel #wikipedia-ru, but some of users told about this to Ukrainian admins. After it some of them spy upon me on IRC channels (stewards and ru) to I don't blurt out something about copyrights.
So, Ukrainian Wikipedia has many images with wrong licences and some users reupload these images to Commons but Commons' admins deleted images. And users don't understand why and blame me (I am Commons' sysop). Btw, after this my comment: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=11881974 some users on IRC blame me: "You discredit uk-wp" and some admins don't speak with me after that.. Then I suffer :'(
But last week I had some conflict with one of sysops (Turzh): he made edit war (twice revert my edits without comments) and then protect article. I wrote Arbcom request about it, but it is not accepted yet. In request I wrote also: "There are hundreds images with nld and nsd. Sysops must deal with them instead of edit warring". And then he begin "deals" with these images. I was wandered: on some images he replace {{nld}} with {{Fairuse in}}, in other ones - replaced CC-BY-SA with PD-self. Then he begins to upload images with license CC-BY-SA from the site sobory.ru , but author allows only non-commercial usage: see (OTRS ticket#2008070810020169). I ask that sysop to delete these images because such permission is unappropriate but he continued upload images. Today I ask him again to delete it (because images with free license maybe uploaded by any user to Commons; and I as Commons' sysop care about purity of project), but he said that he not uploaded it in Commons, it is uk-wiki, and he does what he want. Then I put templates {{db}} to some images but he revert tagging, protect some articles and blocked me for 24 hours. And he wrote ultimatum: "if somebody unblock Ahonc that I'll leave Wikipedia", that's why another admins fear to unblock me, because Turzh will leave wiki and later other users will be said about that sysop: "Oh, look, it is that guy, due to him Turzh left Wikipedia"...
I suggest to emergency desysop of user Turzh (and maybe some others, i.e. A1, who also abuse EDP); block him for copyright abusing; unblock me.
And also I propose to forbid upload images to uk-wp (such as in Spanish wiki) because sysops don't know how to deal with them.
-- Anatoliy Honcharov (Анатолій Гончаров)
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2008/7/15 Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk:
Hmm. This is interesting. I suggest we get a posse of commons admins together to check these allegedly suspect images out systematically.
CM
A full scale scan is beyond the resources of commons.
So lets see what sampling gets us. Well from what I can see there has clearly been some attempt made. Copyright tags is exist and are widely used. Standard fair use (book covers logos and the like) seems to be delt with fairly well on the other hand there is a fair amount of replaceable fair use and some abuse of the {{GFDL}} tag. Of the 50 images sampled I think the following have issues (remember I can't speak the language in question)
http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B...
While that may seem like a lot a single run of 50 doesn't give us a very broad picture.
Well that's 15 or 16 out of 50... fully 30%? That's pretty significant.
_____________________ Philippe Beaudette Tulsa, OK philippebeaudette@gmail.com
On Jul 15, 2008, at 7:49 PM, geni wrote:
2008/7/15 Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk:
Hmm. This is interesting. I suggest we get a posse of commons admins together to check these allegedly suspect images out systematically.
CM
A full scale scan is beyond the resources of commons.
So lets see what sampling gets us. Well from what I can see there has clearly been some attempt made. Copyright tags is exist and are widely used. Standard fair use (book covers logos and the like) seems to be delt with fairly well on the other hand there is a fair amount of replaceable fair use and some abuse of the {{GFDL}} tag. Of the 50 images sampled I think the following have issues (remember I can't speak the language in question)
http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B... http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B...
While that may seem like a lot a single run of 50 doesn't give us a very broad picture.
-- geni
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2008/7/16 Philippe Beaudette philippebeaudette@gmail.com:
Well that's 15 or 16 out of 50... fully 30%? That's pretty significant.
The error on that figure is massive. You would probably need a couple of hundred to put together a reasonable estimate.
Анатолій Гончаров pisze:
Hi.
I want to tell about copyright problems in Ukrainian Wikipedia. (sorry for my non-pure English, I believe that somebody will understand me)
Sysops of uk-wp abuse copyright uploading images with wrong licences. Some of them uploads non-free images with free licence. Other ones use fairuses in templates and userpages. And you may upload ANY image and put license {{Fairuse in}} and image will stay on Wikipedia during months.
Anatolij, I understand your problem. The thing is there is different understanding of Copyright in different law systems. We have similar problem in pl.wiki with for example, FairUse graphics uploaded on Commons which cannot be used in pl.wiki due to copyright violations. It is no so easy to upload article/picture to common store and have it to comply with all countries law. I would sy it is impossible.
But when it is uploaded onto your wiki then have a local community agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
masti
Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Do we have a Macedonian Wikipedia? If so, someone should check the images there. So many of the Macedonians on en are just awful when it comes to copyright. One chap even commented that "it's in the blood". Nobody objected.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:59:38 +0400 From: vasilvv@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
masti writes:
But when it is uploaded onto your wiki then have a local community agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
masti
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
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On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Do we have a Macedonian Wikipedia? If so, someone should check the images there. So many of the Macedonians on en are just awful when it comes to copyright. One chap even commented that "it's in the blood". Nobody objected.
What the hell is this about?
Christiano, this thread is hopeless enough (as most of us can't participate in the discussion anyway due to lack of fluency in Ukrainian), so please don't go about spreading rumors and general allegations on the Macedonian Wikipedia in corpore. I apologise if I'm misreading something but the "It's in the blood" thing sounds utterly racist to me and this will be not tolerated on this list.
Really, everybody, take a step back. I think that this is an issue where (see above) foundation-l is not really the place to find a solution. If Brigitte's solution is acceptable to all, I'd recommend that rather such a way of "mediation" or "third party opinion" be pursued, anything else seems a bit pointless.
Thanks, Michael
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Michael Bimmler mbimmler@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Do we have a Macedonian Wikipedia? If so, someone should check the images there. So many of the Macedonians on en are just awful when it comes to copyright. One chap even commented that "it's in the blood". Nobody objected.
What the hell is this about?
Christiano, this thread is hopeless enough (as most of us can't participate in the discussion anyway due to lack of fluency in Ukrainian), so please don't go about spreading rumors and general allegations on the Macedonian Wikipedia in corpore.
mk.wp bureaucrats are good Wikimedians. If anyone is willing to talk to them about copyright issues, I may give contacts.
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
masti writes:
But when it is uploaded onto your wiki then have a local community agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
masti
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
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Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
l
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Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains) just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
l
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Umm, why not? Obviously don't pick Ahonc's mates, but commons admins in general tend to be fairly smart, neutral, and very good with copyright. It comes with the job. Unfortunately, if this is a case of "local rules mean we can say fuck copyright", that won't wash. There are, obviously, global standards. Enforced by law, no less.
Regardless, you lot can't audit yourselves. And don't patronize me with platitudes.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:23:21 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains) just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
l
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Please stop making this situation more heated and based on poor researched assumptions than it is already. Of course any Wikipedia can run a self-audit of thier situation. We certainly do not need a "posse" of anything to get involved.
Is Alex Spade still active on ru.WP. I remember he had a rather good understanding of copyright. Perhaps he can help advise the local Arbcom on this issue.
Birgitte SB
--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
From: Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:26 PM Umm, why not? Obviously don't pick Ahonc's mates, but commons admins in general tend to be fairly smart, neutral, and very good with copyright. It comes with the job. Unfortunately, if this is a case of "local rules mean we can say fuck copyright", that won't wash. There are, obviously, global standards. Enforced by law, no less.
Regardless, you lot can't audit yourselves. And don't patronize me with platitudes.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:23:21 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each
and every
complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk:
managed to
became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and
still remains)
just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons
admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically,
this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian
Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is
that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what
Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating
(mixing the facts with
"hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
copyright problems at all" - is
wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty
of opportunities to get to
know that (presuming minimal good intentions
if any).
l
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FREE delivery
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Birgitte,
Thank you very much for right impulse (or it was kick? :) ). We have rather good cooperation with guys from ru:WP on copyright issues and we will appreciate a lot Alex Spade hand (never communicated with him yet).
I stop arguing with Ahonc not because of lack of arguments but because: - I know from my and our community experience that arguing with him is senseless (in any meaning) whether it 1:1 or in public, whether online or offline (we wasted couple of real-life meetings on that). - impulse from you mentioned;
Sorry that everybody were involved in this incident.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Please stop making this situation more heated and based on poor researched assumptions than it is already. Of course any Wikipedia can run a self-audit of thier situation. We certainly do not need a "posse" of anything to get involved.
Is Alex Spade still active on ru.WP. I remember he had a rather good understanding of copyright. Perhaps he can help advise the local Arbcom on this issue.
Birgitte SB
--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
From: Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:26 PM Umm, why not? Obviously don't pick Ahonc's mates, but commons admins in general tend to be fairly smart, neutral, and very good with copyright. It comes with the job. Unfortunately, if this is a case of "local rules mean we can say fuck copyright", that won't wash. There are, obviously, global standards. Enforced by law, no less.
Regardless, you lot can't audit yourselves. And don't patronize me with platitudes.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:23:21 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each
and every
complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk:
managed to
became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and
still remains)
just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons
admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically,
this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian
Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is
that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what
Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating
(mixing the facts with
"hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
copyright problems at all" - is
wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty
of opportunities to get to
know that (presuming minimal good intentions
if any).
l
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Pavlo: don't see in the name of all community. At the last admin nomination I get 62% of votes support (but not promoted). So some users believe me. And about your promise: I don't believe you. You promise help me with Boardvote translation but ... you translate nothing, and some text is untranslated yet. You promise user Lvova some month ago to run the bot Голем on uk-wiki and she asked me this week two times "Where is Pavlosh? He promise me to run the bot. Why did he not do it yet?" But I say that I don't know where is pavlosh. He doesn't speak with me and he is inactive. That's why I don't believe you.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
Birgitte,
Thank you very much for right impulse (or it was kick? :) ). We have rather good cooperation with guys from ru:WP on copyright issues and we will appreciate a lot Alex Spade hand (never communicated with him yet).
I stop arguing with Ahonc not because of lack of arguments but because:
- I know from my and our community experience that arguing with him is
senseless (in any meaning) whether it 1:1 or in public, whether online or offline (we wasted couple of real-life meetings on that).
- impulse from you mentioned;
Sorry that everybody were involved in this incident.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Please stop making this situation more heated and based on poor
researched assumptions than it is already. Of course any Wikipedia can run a self-audit of thier situation. We certainly do not need a "posse" of anything to get involved.
Is Alex Spade still active on ru.WP. I remember he had a rather good
understanding of copyright. Perhaps he can help advise the local Arbcom on this issue.
Birgitte SB
--- On Tue, 7/15/08, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
From: Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 2:26 PM Umm, why not? Obviously don't pick Ahonc's mates, but commons admins in general tend to be fairly smart, neutral, and very good with copyright. It comes with the job. Unfortunately, if this is a case of "local rules mean we can say fuck copyright", that won't wash. There are, obviously, global standards. Enforced by law, no less.
Regardless, you lot can't audit yourselves. And don't patronize me with platitudes.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:23:21 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each
and every
complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk:
managed to
became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and
still remains)
just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons
admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically,
this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian
Wikipedia
> As far as I understood, the problem is
that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> copyright problems at all. > --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what
Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating
(mixing the facts with
"hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
copyright problems at all" - is
wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty
of opportunities to get to
know that (presuming minimal good intentions
if any).
l
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Pavlo, I have another point of view than more users of uk-wp. I think that low-quality free image is the best than high-quality FU-image, but more users think vice versa.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains) just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very
simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
l
The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719806/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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That's your (and your motives) essence as well as essence of all the situation:
"> .. I have another point of view than more users of uk-wp."
... but you are the only one who use Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List in attempt to kick back after you spoil relationship with all (!!!) others
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Анатолій Гончаров ahonc.ua@gmail.com wrote: I think that
low-quality free image is the best than high-quality FU-image, but more users think vice versa.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains) just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very
simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
l
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-- Анатолій Гончаров mailto:Ahonc.ua@gmail.com _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Your are wrong. If I am only one, how do you read these messages and answer me? P.S. I subscribed to this mail list only today.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
That's your (and your motives) essence as well as essence of all the situation:
"> .. I have another point of view than more users of uk-wp."
... but you are the only one who use Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List in attempt to kick back after you spoil relationship with all (!!!) others
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Анатолій Гончаров ahonc.ua@gmail.com wrote: I think that
low-quality free image is the best than high-quality FU-image, but more users think vice versa.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
Christiano,
As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains) just shocked by that :( I don't think that "some commons admins" - it's right solution.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi moreschiwikiman@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very
simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright,
find
them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
CM
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300 From: pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get
to
know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
l
The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719806/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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-- Анатолій Гончаров mailto:Ahonc.ua@gmail.com _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Pavlo: what did I say wrong? Do you want diffs? You was inactive on Wikipedia last two months and do nothing with images now you advocate your colleges-sysops.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
masti writes:
But when it is uploaded onto your wiki then have a local community agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
masti
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
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I have no doubts that you have a bunch of diffs as situation with copyright is not really good in uk:
But you put fact in so speculative way that it generates wrong conclusions in reader minds. The best example - you almost completely omit information why you was desysoped in uk: as well as you hided it when you was nominated to commons sysop as well as you speculate about Albedo desysoping while in reality you always vote against him (want some diffs).
And look what ids loveliest your thing: you start personal attacks immediately - this time against me.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Анатолій Гончаров ahonc.ua@gmail.com wrote:
Pavlo: what did I say wrong? Do you want diffs? You was inactive on Wikipedia last two months and do nothing with images now you advocate your colleges-sysops.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
masti writes:
But when it is uploaded onto your wiki then have a local community agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
masti
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
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-- Анатолій Гончаров mailto:Ahonc.ua@gmail.com _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I told my point of view, maybe some conclusions are wrong (as for your opinion). Yes, I vote oppose Albedo, but hear we told about copyright abusing and you try to change topic and discuss me. Your was inactive last 2 months and I think that your don't know all situation (it's my opinion).
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
I have no doubts that you have a bunch of diffs as situation with copyright is not really good in uk:
But you put fact in so speculative way that it generates wrong conclusions in reader minds. The best example - you almost completely omit information why you was desysoped in uk: as well as you hided it when you was nominated to commons sysop as well as you speculate about Albedo desysoping while in reality you always vote against him (want some diffs).
And look what ids loveliest your thing: you start personal attacks immediately - this time against me.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Анатолій Гончаров ahonc.ua@gmail.com wrote:
Pavlo: what did I say wrong? Do you want diffs? You was inactive on Wikipedia last two months and do nothing with images now you advocate
your
colleges-sysops.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
masti writes:
But when it is uploaded onto your wiki then have a local community agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete
it.
masti
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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-- Анатолій Гончаров mailto:Ahonc.ua@gmail.com _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Pavlo: Am I bad Commons' admin? Have your some claims to me? If no, stop swear me (what you do in almost every discussion with me) and talk about topic.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
I have no doubts that you have a bunch of diffs as situation with copyright is not really good in uk:
But you put fact in so speculative way that it generates wrong conclusions in reader minds. The best example - you almost completely omit information why you was desysoped in uk: as well as you hided it when you was nominated to commons sysop as well as you speculate about Albedo desysoping while in reality you always vote against him (want some diffs).
And look what ids loveliest your thing: you start personal attacks immediately - this time against me.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Анатолій Гончаров ahonc.ua@gmail.com wrote:
Pavlo: what did I say wrong? Do you want diffs? You was inactive on Wikipedia last two months and do nothing with images now you advocate
your
colleges-sysops.
2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo pavlo.shevelo@gmail.com:
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with "hints" and emotions). Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
masti writes:
But when it is uploaded onto your wiki then have a local community agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete
it.
masti
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
ignores
copyright problems at all. --VasilievVV
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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-- Анатолій Гончаров mailto:Ahonc.ua@gmail.com _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Pavlo Shevelo writes:
Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
I'm not claiming it, it's how I understand the situation in Anatoly's description. --VasilievVV
I'm not claiming it, it's how I understand the situation in Anatoly's description.
His description is far not 100% correct and you (having almost no language barrier and accessibility to IRC channel etc) is in very best position not to just rely on his mailing.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:19 PM, VasilievVV vasilvv@gmail.com wrote:
Pavlo Shevelo writes:
Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
I'm not claiming it, it's how I understand the situation in Anatoly's description. --VasilievVV
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On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:18 AM, Анатолій Гончаров ahonc.ua@gmail.com wrote:
Sysops of uk-wp abuse copyright uploading images with wrong licences. Some of them uploads non-free images with free licence. Other ones use fairuses in templates and userpages. And you may upload ANY image and put license {{Fairuse in}} and image will stay on Wikipedia during months.
...
But last week I had some conflict with one of sysops (Turzh): he made edit war (twice revert my edits without comments) and then protect article.
I don't know about the other issues, but I looked into the Turzh issue when it came up on commons-l yesterday. Turzh has done the right thing and sent a permissions request to the author of a number of images of churches hosted on some website, and sent the reply to the OTRS permissions list. The problem is that, as far as I can tell (from a machine translation of the OTRS ticket), the author has only licenced the images under some form of non-commercial licence, but Turzh uploaded them all under CC-BY-SA.
Honest mistake or not, these images are not available under the licences that Turzh is claiming them to be under, and they ought to be deleted unless they can immediately be brought within ukwiki's EDP (which I'm told is taken from ruwiki's which in turn is taken from enwiki's, so there is probably not any valid fair use claim unless the churches photographed are no longer standing).
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org