Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-wikiconference-no...
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/1114259788621851/
These are lovely suggestions / requests. Thank you for raising them. I'm happy to hear of your positive experience at WikiConference.
+1 /a
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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Thanks Anna. I forgot to include this relevant link (which I also posted in the Facebook discussion):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
- Pax
On 10/16/16 10:14 AM, Anna Stillwell wrote:
These are lovely suggestions / requests. Thank you for raising them. I'm happy to hear of your positive experience at WikiConference.
+1 /a
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
Hi, I suppose that it should be a group of people to give relevant reasons and to be more proactive when selecting a bid mainly if connected with a poor respect of rights or with the safety of some specific diversities.
The link you give is more related to the rights than to the safety of people. In my opinion is incomplete. For instance North Carolina is not mentioned and looking at your link I would suppose that the whole USA is a safety place.
I would suggest to your group/you to list places where your life can be at risk, places where diversities like LGBT are not accepted, and safety countries or towns. Afterwards to push it as important aspect/policy to consider when selecting a town for a conference within Wikimania community.
This may help a lot and may give more useful and transparent material to the selection committee of Wiki conferences (because I have understood that your reasons would include the selection not only of Wikimania).
Kind regards
On 16.10.2016 19:20, Pax Ahimsa Gethen wrote:
Thanks Anna. I forgot to include this relevant link (which I also posted in the Facebook discussion):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
- Pax
On 10/16/16 10:14 AM, Anna Stillwell wrote:
These are lovely suggestions / requests. Thank you for raising them. I'm happy to hear of your positive experience at WikiConference.
+1 /a
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
Agreed, that link is just a broad overview. There are many other pages that drill down to specific laws and policies of regions and cities that affect the safety of LGBT+ people. From Amir Ladsgroup's reply it does sound like the Wikimania committee is aware of these issues and taking them seriously. Hopefully all conference and meetup planners will do the same.
- Pax
On 10/16/16 11:45 AM, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
Hi, I suppose that it should be a group of people to give relevant reasons and to be more proactive when selecting a bid mainly if connected with a poor respect of rights or with the safety of some specific diversities.
The link you give is more related to the rights than to the safety of people. In my opinion is incomplete. For instance North Carolina is not mentioned and looking at your link I would suppose that the whole USA is a safety place.
I would suggest to your group/you to list places where your life can be at risk, places where diversities like LGBT are not accepted, and safety countries or towns. Afterwards to push it as important aspect/policy to consider when selecting a town for a conference within Wikimania community.
This may help a lot and may give more useful and transparent material to the selection committee of Wiki conferences (because I have understood that your reasons would include the selection not only of Wikimania).
Kind regards
On 16.10.2016 19:20, Pax Ahimsa Gethen wrote:
Thanks Anna. I forgot to include this relevant link (which I also posted in the Facebook discussion):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
- Pax
On 10/16/16 10:14 AM, Anna Stillwell wrote:
These are lovely suggestions / requests. Thank you for raising them. I'm happy to hear of your positive experience at WikiConference.
+1 /a
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
There are two aspects in this situation. We have the law and we have the enforcement. We know that most of ME countries have laws against LGBT people and actively enforce it but for example in India even though there is a law but it's not being enforced. On the other hand in North Carolina (and lots of red states) we have the bathroom bill but not really enforced (Imagine a policeman standing in every bathroom checking people's IDs) *but *if police sees a trans person walking down the street they might arrest him/her because of other reasons such as not having prescription of hormone drugs (See the video) so they are enforcing an unwritten law which is crazy and making the situation more complex.
The committee needs to take this into consideration.
Best
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:34 PM Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Agreed, that link is just a broad overview. There are many other pages that drill down to specific laws and policies of regions and cities that affect the safety of LGBT+ people. From Amir Ladsgroup's reply it does sound like the Wikimania committee is aware of these issues and taking them seriously. Hopefully all conference and meetup planners will do the same.
- Pax
On 10/16/16 11:45 AM, Ilario Valdelli wrote:
Hi, I suppose that it should be a group of people to give relevant reasons and to be more proactive when selecting a bid mainly if connected with a poor respect of rights or with the safety of some specific diversities.
The link you give is more related to the rights than to the safety of people. In my opinion is incomplete. For instance North Carolina is not mentioned and looking at your link I would suppose that the whole USA is a safety place.
I would suggest to your group/you to list places where your life can be at risk, places where diversities like LGBT are not accepted, and safety countries or towns. Afterwards to push it as important aspect/policy to consider when selecting a town for a conference within Wikimania community.
This may help a lot and may give more useful and transparent material to the selection committee of Wiki conferences (because I have understood that your reasons would include the selection not only of Wikimania).
Kind regards
On 16.10.2016 19:20, Pax Ahimsa Gethen wrote:
Thanks Anna. I forgot to include this relevant link (which I also posted in the Facebook discussion):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory
- Pax
On 10/16/16 10:14 AM, Anna Stillwell wrote:
These are lovely suggestions / requests. Thank you for raising them. I'm happy to hear of your positive experience at WikiConference.
+1 /a
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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Hi Pax,
My understanding is that WMF is doing a strategic review of Wikimania. If that is correct, considerations like the ones you raise about location could be included in the scope of that review. I'm pinging Ellie with the hope that she can provide information about the status of WMF's thinking about Wikimania, perhaps in a new thread. Wikimania involves significant amounts of time and money, and I am hoping that WMF will develop ways to align Wikimania with WMF and community strategic goals.
Pine
On Oct 16, 2016 08:10, "Pax Ahimsa Gethen" list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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We talked about this in the LGBT meetup in Wikimania several times. As far as I remember it is a huge concern for coordinators and Wikimania committee when considering a bid for Wikimania. IIRC, there are several examples that situation of LGBT laws was a reason to reject a bid.
So I assure you Wikimania committee is aware of these issues and keeps this in their mind when deciding on bids. (I must note I'm not in these committees. I talked about it with them before as a member of Wikimedia LGBT)
I'm really saddened by the stupid laws made by ignorance of people. Let's laugh at it and then educate them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvCh3EQv1Q :)
Best
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:57 PM Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Pax,
My understanding is that WMF is doing a strategic review of Wikimania. If that is correct, considerations like the ones you raise about location could be included in the scope of that review. I'm pinging Ellie with the hope that she can provide information about the status of WMF's thinking about Wikimania, perhaps in a new thread. Wikimania involves significant amounts of time and money, and I am hoping that WMF will develop ways to align Wikimania with WMF and community strategic goals.
Pine
On Oct 16, 2016 08:10, "Pax Ahimsa Gethen" list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-wikiconference-no...
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/1114259788621851/
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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That's good to hear. And thanks for the video link. :-) - Pax
On 10/16/16 11:04 AM, Amir Ladsgroup wrote:
We talked about this in the LGBT meetup in Wikimania several times. As far as I remember it is a huge concern for coordinators and Wikimania committee when considering a bid for Wikimania. IIRC, there are several examples that situation of LGBT laws was a reason to reject a bid.
So I assure you Wikimania committee is aware of these issues and keeps this in their mind when deciding on bids. (I must note I'm not in these committees. I talked about it with them before as a member of Wikimedia LGBT)
I'm really saddened by the stupid laws made by ignorance of people. Let's laugh at it and then educate them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvCh3EQv1Q :)
Best
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 8:57 PM Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Pax,
My understanding is that WMF is doing a strategic review of Wikimania. If that is correct, considerations like the ones you raise about location could be included in the scope of that review. I'm pinging Ellie with the hope that she can provide information about the status of WMF's thinking about Wikimania, perhaps in a new thread. Wikimania involves significant amounts of time and money, and I am hoping that WMF will develop ways to align Wikimania with WMF and community strategic goals.
Pine
On Oct 16, 2016 08:10, "Pax Ahimsa Gethen" list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-wikiconference-no...
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/1114259788621851/
Yes we are doing a review and I can vouch that issues like this will always be a part of the criteria when selecting a venue. In most of the recent Wikimanias the selection committee and WMF have included the security of our LGBT community as one of the criteria when considering bids.
Another critical issue that you mention below when deciding what to do for future Wikimanias is whether the conference in its present form (program, location, etc.) is serving the community and WMF. That is a longer conversation that I hope we can continue to have and make some progress in the near future.
Ellie
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Pax,
My understanding is that WMF is doing a strategic review of Wikimania. If that is correct, considerations like the ones you raise about location could be included in the scope of that review. I'm pinging Ellie with the hope that she can provide information about the status of WMF's thinking about Wikimania, perhaps in a new thread. Wikimania involves significant amounts of time and money, and I am hoping that WMF will develop ways to align Wikimania with WMF and community strategic goals.
Pine
On Oct 16, 2016 08:10, "Pax Ahimsa Gethen" list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-w ikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/11 14259788621851/
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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Thanks Ellie.
On the topic of event safety, I am wondering if there is a standard checklist that WMF uses when narrowing potential sites for Wikimanias and if you could make that checklist public. Perhaps it is public already but I don't know where to find it.
Regarding Wikimania goals and strategy, I'd like to suggest that WMF take a look at what our friends in WMDE have done with the Wikimedia Conference to increase focus on specific topics and to make conference outcomes a bit clearer and more measurable.
I also like that WMDE devotes significant staff support to the conference, which decreases the burden on volunteers; I would like to see a similar shift for Wikimania so the event is less dependent on heroic efforts from volunteers. I realize that there is financial cost involved with increased staff support for conferences; this is one area in which increased expenditure makes sense to me.
I look forward to hearing about further developments.
Thanks,
Pine
On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Ellie.
On the topic of event safety, I am wondering if there is a standard checklist that WMF uses when narrowing potential sites for Wikimanias and if you could make that checklist public. Perhaps it is public already but I don't know where to find it.
This is what we were using for the past few Wikimanias. It is public. I reference it in the recent posting as well. I will be updating this since we are no longer doing the competitive bidding process but it does have a lot of information and is pretty accurate.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2016_judging_criteria
Regarding Wikimania goals and strategy, I'd like to suggest that WMF take a
look at what our friends in WMDE have done with the Wikimedia Conference to increase focus on specific topics and to make conference outcomes a bit clearer and more measurable.
WMF funds with a grant this conference and works closely with WMDE. There was a proposal a couple of years ago to have a paid program and events coordinator who would provide continuity year to year and liaise with other conferences/groups. There is also paid meeting planner as well as staff support from the WMDE itself.
I also like that WMDE devotes significant staff support to the conference, which decreases the burden on volunteers; I would like to see a similar shift for Wikimania so the event is less dependent on heroic efforts from volunteers. I realize that there is financial cost involved with increased staff support for conferences; this is one area in which increased expenditure makes sense to me.
We started that in London and Mexico City Wikimania with my position and a paid local coordinator (Esino Lario was an exception where the local team received a grant and handled pretty much everything.)
I look forward to hearing about further developments.
Thanks,
Pine
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Ellie, thanks for the response. Could the criteria you mention be published on-wiki? Holding an open and transparent process for selecting host locations for Wikimania should be a requirement on the selection committee, so there ought to be nothing stopping this from happening. If the applied criteria has already been published I would appreciate a link.
It's nice that the security of the LGBT+ community is one of the criteria, however it would be better if host locations were guaranteed to be chosen where the LGBT+ community would be openly welcome, rather than tolerated or not subject to arrest.
Thanks, Fae
On 17 October 2016 at 22:39, Ellie Young eyoung@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yes we are doing a review and I can vouch that issues like this will always be a part of the criteria when selecting a venue. In most of the recent Wikimanias the selection committee and WMF have included the security of our LGBT community as one of the criteria when considering bids.
Another critical issue that you mention below when deciding what to do for future Wikimanias is whether the conference in its present form (program, location, etc.) is serving the community and WMF. That is a longer conversation that I hope we can continue to have and make some progress in the near future.
Ellie
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it stands for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
They all have their issues but remember what our aim is not for the perfect holiday destination. We aim to bring the sum of all knowledge everywhere. The thing with safety is that it is very much in behaviour. I am not at ease when I travel. When I go to places like the USA, I am amazed and feel harassed by all the visible guns. It feels like I am in a police series... I know it has nothing to do with me but I feel as safe there as I did in Alexandria, Mumbai, Buenos Aires because I am there for one thing only. Wikimania.
By excluding destinations, we restrict our ability to reach out to places where our message needs to be heard. That is why I am filled with mixed feelings about all the attention of safety in "other places". The USA is another place to me where I feel not safe, where LGBT rights are not guaranteed either.
It is possible to be safe particularly when I concentrate why I am there in the first place. Thanks, GerardM
On 17 October 2016 at 23:39, Ellie Young eyoung@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yes we are doing a review and I can vouch that issues like this will always be a part of the criteria when selecting a venue. In most of the recent Wikimanias the selection committee and WMF have included the security of our LGBT community as one of the criteria when considering bids.
Another critical issue that you mention below when deciding what to do for future Wikimanias is whether the conference in its present form (program, location, etc.) is serving the community and WMF. That is a longer conversation that I hope we can continue to have and make some progress in the near future.
Ellie
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Pax,
My understanding is that WMF is doing a strategic review of Wikimania. If that is correct, considerations like the ones you raise about location could be included in the scope of that review. I'm pinging Ellie with the hope that she can provide information about the status of WMF's thinking about Wikimania, perhaps in a new thread. Wikimania involves significant amounts of time and money, and I am hoping that WMF will develop ways to align Wikimania with WMF and community strategic goals.
Pine
On Oct 16, 2016 08:10, "Pax Ahimsa Gethen" <list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
Wikipedia.[1]
I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but
also
those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
about my
daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the
way;
I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-w ikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/11 14259788621851/
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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-- Ellie Young Events Manager Wikimedia Foundation eyoung@wikimedia.org c. 510 701 8649 _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
IMHO we should divide criteria into two categories, reflecting two different kind of issue:
*someone *cannot* partecipate because of a certain issue -> the proposal is rejected *someone may not feel comfortable in partecipating -> the proposal is somehow penalized
In other words, if LGBT people is at risk in Saudi Arabia then Wikimania cannot be held in Saudi Arabia. If LGBT people might face some difficulties in North Carolina then North Carolina will lose a certain amount of preference to -for example- Belgium where LGBT people might be more comfortable.
I know this might weaken our effort to reach non-Western countries but I rather support giving anybody the *opportunity* to partecipate.
Vito
2016-10-18 12:42 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it stands for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
They all have their issues but remember what our aim is not for the perfect holiday destination. We aim to bring the sum of all knowledge everywhere. The thing with safety is that it is very much in behaviour. I am not at ease when I travel. When I go to places like the USA, I am amazed and feel harassed by all the visible guns. It feels like I am in a police series... I know it has nothing to do with me but I feel as safe there as I did in Alexandria, Mumbai, Buenos Aires because I am there for one thing only. Wikimania.
By excluding destinations, we restrict our ability to reach out to places where our message needs to be heard. That is why I am filled with mixed feelings about all the attention of safety in "other places". The USA is another place to me where I feel not safe, where LGBT rights are not guaranteed either.
It is possible to be safe particularly when I concentrate why I am there in the first place. Thanks, GerardM
On 17 October 2016 at 23:39, Ellie Young eyoung@wikimedia.org wrote:
Yes we are doing a review and I can vouch that issues like this will
always
be a part of the criteria when selecting a venue. In most of the recent Wikimanias the selection committee and WMF have included the security of our LGBT community as one of the criteria when considering bids.
Another critical issue that you mention below when deciding what to do
for
future Wikimanias is whether the conference in its present form
(program,
location, etc.) is serving the community and WMF. That is a longer conversation that I hope we can continue to have and make some progress
in
the near future.
Ellie
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Pax,
My understanding is that WMF is doing a strategic review of Wikimania.
If
that is correct, considerations like the ones you raise about location could be included in the scope of that review. I'm pinging Ellie with
the
hope that she can provide information about the status of WMF's
thinking
about Wikimania, perhaps in a new thread. Wikimania involves
significant
amounts of time and money, and I am hoping that WMF will develop ways
to
align Wikimania with WMF and community strategic goals.
Pine
On Oct 16, 2016 08:10, "Pax Ahimsa Gethen" <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
Wikipedia.[1]
I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly
on
Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but
also
those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
about my
daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the
way;
I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to
use
the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind
when
planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-w ikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/11 14259788621851/
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it stands for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
Hoi, For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
With all due respect Pax... whilst I am fully in agreement with the concept of selecting a country with the safety of ALL participants in mind, I totally disagree with the concept of selecting a country based on "high human records" generally.
We are not serving the part of humanity that has the chance to live in countries with high human records. We are serving everyone, no matter in which country they live.
People living in those countries with poor records, already suffer from poor human rights. Why would we add to that ?
Anthere
Le 18/10/2016 à 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen a écrit :
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Hoi, Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States. What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us. Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States. What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us. Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate you not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States. What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us. Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All the specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for me is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to travel and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that has been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's election. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate you not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi,
Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States. What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us. Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, > I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All > the > specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels > problematic > when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture > for > me > is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it > > stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India > to > South Africa. > > -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to travel and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that has been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's election. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate you not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi,
Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States. What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us. Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific > attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine > how such a thing could be true. > > Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of > LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please > don't make it appear as if they have. > > Thanks, > Fae > > On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com > wrote: > > Hoi, >> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All >> the >> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >> problematic >> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture >> for >> me >> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it >> >> stands > > for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India >> to >> South Africa. >> >> -- > faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > >
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is a "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they felt up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let me say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they are the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are mistaken for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live. Stories about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when that stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for prudence, we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place as a worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It is another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide. When we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia
is
not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
all
knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not
go
to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
want
either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
being
fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
LBGT
community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
aim to
share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of
us.
Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
those
living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with
a
poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, > For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
> Our > primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in > the > sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday > destination. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: > > Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety > >> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific >> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine >> how such a thing could be true. >> >> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>> don't make it appear as if they have. >> >> Thanks, >> Fae >> >> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >> Hoi, >>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe.
All
>>> the >>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>> problematic >>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture >>> for >>> me >>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what
it
>>> >>> stands >> >> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>> to >>> South Africa. >>> >>> -- >> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >> >>
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is a "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they felt up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let me say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they are the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are mistaken for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live. Stories about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when that stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for prudence, we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place as a worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It is another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide. When we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia
is
not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
all
knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not
go
to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
want
either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
being
fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
LBGT
community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
aim to
share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of
us.
Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm > concerned > not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
those
> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with
a
> poor > human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our > mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the > restrictive > restroom laws were passed for example... > > - Pax > > > > On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > Hoi, >> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
>> Our >> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in >> the >> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday >> destination. >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety >> >>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific >>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine >>> how such a thing could be true. >>> >>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>>> don't make it appear as if they have. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Fae >>> >>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hoi, >>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe.
All
>>>> the >>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>> problematic >>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture >>>> for >>>> me >>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what
it
>>>> >>>> stands >>> >>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>>> to >>>> South Africa. >>>> >>>> -- >>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>> >>>
--
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
the
people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi, > Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
gain
> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
Wikipedia
is
> not > the house hold name it is in the USA. > > Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
matter.
> They > do. > > We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
all
> knowledge with. > > THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. > > When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
not
go
> to > the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to > Switzerland > and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
want
> either. > > If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
being
> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
LBGT
> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the > Wikimedia > community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
aim to
> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
of
us.
> Thank, > GerardM > > On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < > list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: > > Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm >> concerned >> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
those
>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
with
a
>> poor >> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
our
>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >> restrictive >> restroom laws were passed for example... >> >> - Pax >> >> >> >> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >> Hoi, >>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
>>> Our >>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
"sharing in
>>> the >>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday >>> destination. >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
safety
>>> >>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
specific
>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
imagine
>>>> how such a thing could be true. >>>> >>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>>>> don't make it appear as if they have. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Fae >>>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hoi, >>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
safe.
All
>>>>> the >>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>> problematic >>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
picture
>>>>> for >>>>> me >>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
what
it
>>>>> >>>>> stands >>>> >>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>>>> to >>>>> South Africa. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>>> >>>>
--
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
+1
On 10 November 2016 at 09:00, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there
is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in
the
past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ...
They
are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security
is
only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
only
concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion
and
put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly
matter
that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do.
It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see
it
this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it
failed
and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
about
the
people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA
that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi, > Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote: > > Hoi, >> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
gain
>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
Wikipedia
is
>> not >> the house hold name it is in the USA. >> >> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
matter.
>> They >> do. >> >> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum
of
all
>> knowledge with. >> >> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. >> >> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
not
go
>> to >> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to >> Switzerland >> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
what I
want
>> either. >> >> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
still
being
>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help
the
LBGT
>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the >> Wikimedia >> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
heard.We
aim to
>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even
heard
of
us.
>> Thank, >> GerardM >> >> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >> list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: >> >> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that
I'm
>>> concerned >>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
about
those
>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
with
a
>>> poor >>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
our
>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >>> restrictive >>> restroom laws were passed for example... >>> >>> - Pax >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> Hoi, >>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
>>>> Our >>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
"sharing in
>>>> the >>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
holiday
>>>> destination. >>>> Thanks, >>>> GerardM >>>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
safety
>>>> >>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
specific
>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
imagine
>>>>> how such a thing could be true. >>>>> >>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Fae >>>>> >>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
safe.
All
>>>>>> the >>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>>> problematic >>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
picture
>>>>>> for >>>>>> me >>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
what
it
>>>>>> >>>>>> stands >>>>> >>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>>>>> to >>>>>> South Africa. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>>>>
>>>>>
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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Hi there,
Gerrad, you wrote ". Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are." This comment is puzzling! What are they? Could you please clarify?
Best,
Isaac
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless handheld from Glo Mobile.
-----Original Message----- From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com Sender: "Wikimedia-l" wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.orgDate: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 09:00:13 To: Wikimedia Mailing Listwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Reply-To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] LGBT+ safety considerations for conference venues
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
the
people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi, > Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
gain
> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
Wikipedia
is
> not > the house hold name it is in the USA. > > Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
matter.
> They > do. > > We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
all
> knowledge with. > > THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. > > When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
not
go
> to > the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to > Switzerland > and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
want
> either. > > If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
being
> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
LBGT
> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the > Wikimedia > community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
aim to
> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
of
us.
> Thank, > GerardM > > On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < > list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: > > Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm >> concerned >> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
those
>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
with
a
>> poor >> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
our
>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >> restrictive >> restroom laws were passed for example... >> >> - Pax >> >> >> >> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >> Hoi, >>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
>>> Our >>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
"sharing in
>>> the >>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday >>> destination. >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
safety
>>> >>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
specific
>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
imagine
>>>> how such a thing could be true. >>>> >>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>>>> don't make it appear as if they have. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Fae >>>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hoi, >>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
safe.
All
>>>>> the >>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>> problematic >>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
picture
>>>>> for >>>>> me >>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
what
it
>>>>> >>>>> stands >>>> >>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>>>> to >>>>> South Africa. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>>> >>>>
--
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
{{citationneeded}}
The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.
The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”, “public”, or “educate” at all.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania
-Andrew
Hoi, In that case what is the point of Wikimania. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 14:25, Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
word
about what we do and who we are.
{{citationneeded}}
The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.
The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”, “public”, or “educate” at all.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania
-Andrew _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I see the primary point of Wikimania as an opportunity for the community to meet in person once a year. Many important initiatives for our movement have grown out of Wikimania including but not limited to: Wikivoyage, the copyright detection bot, our collaboration with the World Health Organization, our collaboration with Cochrane, our collaboration with the NIH, efforts at offline distribution, etc. That the events garner attention from local press is definitely a plus though :-)
James
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, In that case what is the point of Wikimania. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 14:25, Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the
word
about what we do and who we are.
{{citationneeded}}
The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.
The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”, “public”, or “educate” at all.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania
-Andrew _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Hoi, Exactly. It is the whole community that meets and it is regularly in a different country because in this way we have been in all continents but Australia and it has been wonderful to see the different outlook from the local Wikipedians. When Wikimania is not about outreach we could have it always in the same location. As it is, we have been in many countries that each bring a different aspect to the sum of all knowledge.
The point I have been making is that we should be prudent but not afraid. We should go where we meet important parts of our community, parts where we aim to grow our base. When I arrived at Taiwan airport, I was welcomed with big signs in the airport that people who smuggle drugs will be executed. I do not do drugs so that was no problem. I have been sniffed at at many border crossings and they are anxious moments. I am prudent so I know that I am clean. I goto hotel, goto conference goto bed. (I am knackered after a day at a conference).
It has always been worth it. I found that it is EXACTLY meeting new people with their ideas that brings us forward. I am anxious when I go abroad but it will not stop me. I consider what I have to do, how to behave and it works for me. It can work for all of us. Even the Quran allows for people to wear inconspicuous cloths in order to be safe. My point is that we all can be ourselves at the conference itself and when we are at official events.
We can be afraid but fear should not rule us.
NB when there are no sources, consider that for some things do not need to be written down to be valid. My expectations of Wikimania and Wikipedia is often contrary to common held opinions. They come from the fact that Wikipedia and English is not my priority. Sharing the sum of all knowledge is. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 15:45, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I see the primary point of Wikimania as an opportunity for the community to meet in person once a year. Many important initiatives for our movement have grown out of Wikimania including but not limited to: Wikivoyage, the copyright detection bot, our collaboration with the World Health Organization, our collaboration with Cochrane, our collaboration with the NIH, efforts at offline distribution, etc. That the events garner attention from local press is definitely a plus though :-)
James
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, In that case what is the point of Wikimania. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 14:25, Andrew Lih andrew.lih@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading
the
word
about what we do and who we are.
{{citationneeded}}
The reality is Wikimania is largely a community event first, with the public outreach element an enhancement or afterthought.
The Wikimania meta page doesn’t include the words “spread”, “outreach”, “public”, or “educate” at all.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania
-Andrew _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference North America.
Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same with any other marginalized groups you might name.
FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original post:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at-wikiconference-no...
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/1114259788621851/
- Pax
On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
the
people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote: Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really
appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi, > Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote: > > Hoi, >> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not
gain
>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries
Wikipedia
is
>> not >> the house hold name it is in the USA. >> >> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not
matter.
>> They >> do. >> >> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
all
>> knowledge with. >> >> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. >> >> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should
not
go
>> to >> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to >> Switzerland >> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
want
>> either. >> >> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
being
>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
LBGT
>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the >> Wikimedia >> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
aim to
>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard
of
us.
>> Thank, >> GerardM >> >> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >> list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: >> >> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm >>> concerned >>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
those
>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location
with
a
>>> poor >>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and
our
>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >>> restrictive >>> restroom laws were passed for example... >>> >>> - Pax >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> Hoi, >>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
>>>> Our >>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
"sharing in
>>>> the >>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday >>>> destination. >>>> Thanks, >>>> GerardM >>>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other
safety
>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
specific
>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
imagine
>>>>> how such a thing could be true. >>>>> >>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Fae >>>>> >>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
safe.
All
>>>>>> the >>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>>> problematic >>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
picture
>>>>>> for >>>>>> me >>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
what
it
>>>>>> stands >>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>>>>> to >>>>>> South Africa. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
"Foreigners" are at an increased risk regardless of where they travel thats the reality of international travel, additionally each persons individual circumstances will affect those risks. What we shouldnt be doing is engaging in a contest as to whos circumstances gives them the greater risk and thus a greater value as a contributor. Sitting at a keyboard improving content we are all equals everyone is important.
On 10 November 2016 at 23:40, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference North America.
Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same with any other marginalized groups you might name.
FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original post:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and Wikipedia.[1] I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but also those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going about my daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the way; I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
- Pax
On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about
the
people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my
argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote: > Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San > Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really > appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point. > > - Pax > > > > On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > Hoi, >> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen < >> > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote: >> >> Hoi, >> >>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not >>> >> gain
anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
>>> >> States.
What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, >>> >> what we
do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries >>> >> Wikipedia
is
not >>> the house hold name it is in the USA. >>> >>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to >>> >> further
our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those >>> >> other
people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not >>> >> matter.
They
>>> do. >>> >>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of >>> >> those
countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of >>> >> all
knowledge with. >>> >>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. >>> >>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should >>> >> not
go
to >>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to >>> Switzerland >>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I >>> >> want
either. >>> >>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still >>> >> being
fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the >>> >> LBGT
community. More importantly in this context it does not help the >>> Wikimedia >>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We >>> >> aim to
share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard >>> >> of
us.
Thank, >>> GerardM >>> >>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >>> list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: >>> >>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human >>> >> rights
and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm >>>> concerned >>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about >>>> >>> those
living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location >>>> >>> with
a
poor >>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and >>>> >>> our
mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
>>>> >>> companies
pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >>>> restrictive >>>> restroom laws were passed for example... >>>> >>>> - Pax >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>> >>>> Hoi, >>>> >>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to >>>>> >>>> achieve.
Our >>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is >>>>> >>>> "sharing in
the
>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday >>>>> destination. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> GerardM >>>>> >>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other >>>>> >>>> safety
aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
>>>>>> >>>>> specific
attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
>>>>>> >>>>> imagine
how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>> >>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the >>>>>> >>>>> safety of
LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. >>>>>> >>>>> Please
don't make it appear as if they have. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Fae >>>>>> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> >>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are >>>>>>> >>>>>> safe.
All
the >>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>>>> problematic >>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big >>>>>>> >>>>>> picture
for
>>>>>>> me >>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and >>>>>>> >>>>>> what
it
stands >>>>>>> >>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to >>>>>> >>>>> India
to >>>>>>> South Africa. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>>>>> >>>>>
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Greetings,
I wanted to take off my Wikimedia Foundation hat for a moment and offer some thoughts as a fellow volunteer.
Without feeling physically/emotionally/mentally safe and free from prosecutorial persecution, it is nearly impossible to actively engage. Therefore, no goals can be achieved if creating a safe space is not a consideration.
I mention prosecutorial persecution because the discussion thus far seems to have focused on citizen based peer violence. The problem is that for many communities, in this case the LGBT community, there are many other elements involved as well. Holding Wikimania in a country where simply being LGBT is a crime presents more than just a physical safety risk, it presents the threat of prison or death sentence. There are additional risks that LGBT people would take by being in that country even if we were absolutely confident the police were going to stay away. For example, if a LGBT person travels to a country where it is illegal, against the advice of their government, their health insurance may not be willing to help them should something happen (even if what happens has nothing to do with the laws criminalizing LGBT people). Again, these risks and situations apply to other communities as well, I am simply using this as an example.
Also, having engaged in conversations like this professionally for over a decade, I want to encourage us to avoid ranking or comparing people's experiences. The reality is that when you are the victim of discrimination, harassment, or violence, that someone else may have had it worse than you is not an especially helpful or even relevant factor. Additionally, it cannot really be proven (facts matter), and more importantly here - does not encourage productive dialogue.
I believe this is an important discussion to be having, and I am pleased to see people engaging in it. However, I think it is important that we accurately convey the scope of the topic, and avoid emotional triggers that will derail dialogue. Given the emotional level for many, especially in the US, following the election - I would also encourage people to consider pausing and allowing things to calm down before re-engaging.
-greg (User:Varnent)
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:41 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
"Foreigners" are at an increased risk regardless of where they travel thats the reality of international travel, additionally each persons individual circumstances will affect those risks. What we shouldnt be doing is engaging in a contest as to whos circumstances gives them the greater risk and thus a greater value as a contributor. Sitting at a keyboard improving content we are all equals everyone is important.
On 10 November 2016 at 23:40, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference
North
America.
Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same with any other marginalized groups you might name.
FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original
post:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
Wikipedia.[1]
I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly on Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but
also
those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
about my
daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the
way;
I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to use the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind when planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
- Pax
On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant
of
where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety
is
secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is
you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there
is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have
been
rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that
they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security
is
only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
only
concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are
and
what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do.
It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see
it
this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be
for
a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating
your
points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks, Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
> Hoi, > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to > travel
> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
about
> the
people we aim to serve.
> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my > argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
> has
> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's > election.
> Thanks, > GerardM > > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < > list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
> wrote: >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really >> > appreciate
you
> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
point.
>> >> - Pax >> >> >> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >> Hoi, >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? >>> Thanks, >>> GerardM >>> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen < >>> >> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote: >>> >>> Hoi, >>> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not >>>> >>> gain
anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
>>>> >>> States.
> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, >>>> >>> what we
> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries >>>> >>> Wikipedia
is
> not >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA. >>>> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to >>>> >>> further
> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those >>>> >>> other
> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not >>>> >>> matter.
They
>>>> do. >>>> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of >>>> >>> those
> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of >>>> >>> all
> knowledge with. >>>> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. >>>> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should >>>> >>> not
go
> to >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to >>>> Switzerland >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
what I
>>>> >>> want
> either. >>>> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
still
>>>> >>> being
> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the >>>> >>> LBGT
> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the >>>> Wikimedia >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
heard.We
>>>> >>> aim to
> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard >>>> >>> of
us.
> Thank, >>>> GerardM >>>> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >>>> list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human >>>> >>> rights
> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm >>>>> concerned >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
about
>>>>> >>>> those
> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location >>>>> >>>> with
a
> poor >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and >>>>> >>>> our
mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
>>>>> >>>> companies
> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >>>>> restrictive >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example... >>>>> >>>>> - Pax >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hoi, >>>>> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to >>>>>> >>>>> achieve.
> Our >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is >>>>>> >>>>> "sharing in
the
>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
holiday
>>>>>> destination. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> GerardM >>>>>> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other >>>>>> >>>>> safety
aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
>>>>>>> >>>>>> specific
attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
>>>>>>> >>>>>> imagine
how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the >>>>>>> >>>>>> safety of
> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Please
> don't make it appear as if they have. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Fae >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> safe.
All
> the >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>>>>> problematic >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> picture
for
>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> what
it
> stands >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to >>>>>>> >>>>>> India
> to >>>>>>>> South Africa. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>>>>>> >>>>>>
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, Right. I agree. It is vital for us to have a safe space where we have our conference. When we assess a place we should indeed do a risk assessment. This risk assessment is for all of us. It means that we have to be safe to do our thing at the conference, we have to be safe at our digs, we have to be safe to party when we go (together) out and party and obviously we have to go travel safely to and from the air port.
Every country knows about conferences and it is reasonable to talk with them before the conference is held. Countries do want conferences and typically it is possible to find a framework where everybody attending can safely do what is part of a conference program.
Greg, LGBT gets a lot of attention and I have no problem with that; it has been a considerable move forward. As you say, they are not the only group who are stigmatised. They are not the only group that have to consider their behaviour when they travel, when they live where they live. USA is in turmoil. But it is for the USA to allow for it to be what it is. Mr Clinton was almost impeached because of Mrs Lewinsky.. Mr Trump is far more likely to get off the rails given his history. The point of the USA is that it has to be assessed in the same way as all other countries and to be honest, many people feel extremely anxious going there. That is not a reason not to go, but it is vital that the USA is treated no different from other countries. It is vital that everyone understands that when he is a guest in a country, he has to appreciate where he is. Be advised that according to Amnesty International no police force in the USA abides by the international agreed rules the USA signed up for. There are known police forces that are violently different from those agreements.
The point is, we should not let fear guide us, we should be prudent in all risk assessments and indeed everyone should be able to attend. In the past we have been to countries where this has not been the case. So take that as a precedent. We need to come together but it is not only about LGBT it is also about LGBT. Thanks, GerardM
On 11 November 2016 at 04:10, Gregory Varnum gregory.varnum@gmail.com wrote:
Greetings,
I wanted to take off my Wikimedia Foundation hat for a moment and offer some thoughts as a fellow volunteer.
Without feeling physically/emotionally/mentally safe and free from prosecutorial persecution, it is nearly impossible to actively engage. Therefore, no goals can be achieved if creating a safe space is not a consideration.
I mention prosecutorial persecution because the discussion thus far seems to have focused on citizen based peer violence. The problem is that for many communities, in this case the LGBT community, there are many other elements involved as well. Holding Wikimania in a country where simply being LGBT is a crime presents more than just a physical safety risk, it presents the threat of prison or death sentence. There are additional risks that LGBT people would take by being in that country even if we were absolutely confident the police were going to stay away. For example, if a LGBT person travels to a country where it is illegal, against the advice of their government, their health insurance may not be willing to help them should something happen (even if what happens has nothing to do with the laws criminalizing LGBT people). Again, these risks and situations apply to other communities as well, I am simply using this as an example.
Also, having engaged in conversations like this professionally for over a decade, I want to encourage us to avoid ranking or comparing people's experiences. The reality is that when you are the victim of discrimination, harassment, or violence, that someone else may have had it worse than you is not an especially helpful or even relevant factor. Additionally, it cannot really be proven (facts matter), and more importantly here - does not encourage productive dialogue.
I believe this is an important discussion to be having, and I am pleased to see people engaging in it. However, I think it is important that we accurately convey the scope of the topic, and avoid emotional triggers that will derail dialogue. Given the emotional level for many, especially in the US, following the election - I would also encourage people to consider pausing and allowing things to calm down before re-engaging.
-greg (User:Varnent)
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:41 PM Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
"Foreigners" are at an increased risk regardless of where they travel
thats
the reality of international travel, additionally each persons individual circumstances will affect those risks. What we shouldnt be doing is engaging in a contest as to whos circumstances gives them the greater
risk
and thus a greater value as a contributor. Sitting at a keyboard
improving
content we are all equals everyone is important.
On 10 November 2016 at 23:40, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
It is correct I have yet to attend a Wikimania conference, but was planning to after my positive experience presenting at WikiConference
North
America.
Please note the "Muslim" and "LGBT" are not mutually exclusive. Same
with
any other marginalized groups you might name.
FYI my preferred pronoun is "they" not "he".
To clarify what it is I actually asked, here is a copy of my original
post:
Hello all. I had a positive experience at WikiConference North America
last weekend, where I gave a talk on transgender issues and
Wikipedia.[1]
I'm posting because there's an active discussion in Wikipedia Weekly
on
Facebook about choosing a host country for Wikimania 2018.[2] I am concerned that some of the suggestions are not taking into account the safety of LGBT+ people; not just those attending the conference, but
also
those living in the host country.
As a queer trans atheist in a same-sex marriage, there are a number of places where I am considered a criminal for just existing or going
about my
daily routine. This applies to some parts of the U.S. as well, by the
way;
I won't be visiting North Carolina as long as it's illegal for me to
use
the men's restroom there. Please keep these considerations in mind
when
planning meetups and conferences. Thank you.
- Pax aka Funcrunch
[1] http://funcrunch.org/blog/2016/10/12/making-connections-at- wikiconference-north-america/
[2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/ 1114259788621851/
- Pax
On 11/10/16 12:00 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word about what we do and who we are.
I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks
for
consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels
safe.
It is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what Wikimania stands for.
There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect
place
for Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant
of
where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will
be
discriminated against.
Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to
a
conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen
for
what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that
I
make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an
instrument
to open up new communities and include them in our movement.
This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety
is
secondary. Thanks, GerardM
On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard,
Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person
doing
that is you.
You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is
you.
Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was
positive
about the Wikimania experience.
Fae
On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
wrote:
Hoi, The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where
there
is
a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries
in
the past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have
been
rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when
they
felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns.
Let
me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that
they
are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one
before.
Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are
mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live.
Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But
when
that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that
security
is
only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence.
It
means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are
only
concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your
opinion
and put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for
prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first
place
as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are
and
what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and
its
culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively
an
existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we
do.
It
is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not
see
it
this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world
wide.
When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our
strength.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, > > You have posted several emails on the subject which read as > disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors
to
> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line
of
> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk > just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be
for
> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the > values of the WMF or recognized affiliates. > > If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic
safety
> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should
be
> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating
your
> points on this list. > > I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what > might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting > further emails about this particular topic. > > Thanks, > Fae > > On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Hoi, >> What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be >> realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have
to
>> > travel > >> and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is
about
>> > the
people we aim to serve. >> >> I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my >> > argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA
that
>> > has > >> been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's >> > election. > >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >> > list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org > >> wrote: >>> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in
San
>>> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really >>> >> appreciate
you > >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a
point.
>>> >>> - Pax >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>> >>> Hoi, >>>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? >>>> Thanks, >>>> GerardM >>>> >>>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen < >>>> >>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> > >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hoi, >>>> >>>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do
not
>>>>> >>>> gain
anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United >>>>> >>>> States. > >> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, >>>>> >>>> what we > >> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries >>>>> >>>> Wikipedia
is > >> not >>>>> the house hold name it is in the USA. >>>>> >>>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed
to
>>>>> >>>> further > >> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those >>>>> >>>> other > >> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not >>>>> >>>> matter.
They >>>>> do. >>>>> >>>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people
of
>>>>> >>>> those > >> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum
of
>>>>> >>>> all > >> knowledge with. >>>>> >>>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. >>>>> >>>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we
should
>>>>> >>>> not
go > >> to >>>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to >>>>> Switzerland >>>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not
what I
>>>>> >>>> want > >> either. >>>>> >>>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is
still
>>>>> >>>> being > >> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help
the
>>>>> >>>> LBGT > >> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the >>>>> Wikimedia >>>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message
heard.We
>>>>> >>>> aim to > >> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard >>>>> >>>> of
us. > >> Thank, >>>>> GerardM >>>>> >>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < >>>>> list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about
human
>>>>> >>>> rights > >> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm >>>>>> concerned >>>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also
about
>>>>>> >>>>> those > >> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location >>>>>> >>>>> with
a > >> poor >>>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia
and
>>>>>> >>>>> our
mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major >>>>>> >>>>> companies > >> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the >>>>>> restrictive >>>>>> restroom laws were passed for example... >>>>>> >>>>>> - Pax >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> >>>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim
to
>>>>>>> >>>>>> achieve. > >> Our >>>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is >>>>>>> >>>>>> "sharing in
the >>>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
holiday
>>>>>>> destination. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> GerardM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other >>>>>>> >>>>>> safety
aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> specific
attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> imagine
how such a thing could be true. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> safety of > >> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please > >> don't make it appear as if they have. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Fae >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >>>>>>>> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> safe.
All > >> the >>>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>>>>>>>> problematic >>>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> picture
for >>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia
and
>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> what
it > >> stands >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China
to
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> India > >> to >>>>>>>>> South Africa. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/
wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Dear All,
Making sure that safety requirements are met sure is important, and in view of the previous discussions there is a balance to find between opening to new geographic communities and securing our own community. I would like to point out somerhing more: concerning the gender gap, many women I came to know last year are not able to attend such events for the following reason:
- no children / teenager activities proposed from the beginning to people outside the organizing team - no baby sitting fees reimbursed for parents attending - no reduction or scholarships for single parents (wether LGBT man or woman alltogether) - the cost if moving a whole family (plane and train ticket) is not adressed for family members - late answers to such questions make it impossible to organize (one does need to think ahead to organize a childcare at home or elsewhere)
I think these issues are also important and need to be discussed if we want to reduce the gender gap.
Kind regards
Nattes à chat
Le 9 nov. 2016 à 17:43, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to travel and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that has been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's election. Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate you not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi,
Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States. What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us. Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human rights
and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about those living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with a poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major companies pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific > attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine > how such a thing could be true. > > Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of > LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please > don't make it appear as if they have. > > Thanks, > Fae > > On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com > wrote: > > Hoi, >> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All >> the >> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >> problematic >> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture >> for >> me >> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it >> >> stands > > for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India >> to >> South Africa. >> >> -- > faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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Natasha, great points on all these.
Just wanted to add that it’s not just women who could use the help on child care in order to attend conferences. It’s just good policy all around.
One of the downsides of moving Wikimania every year, with a brand new team on each iteration, is that we cannot optimize and improve Wikimania with these types of ideas. We wind up putting all the energies into the basics, because each year is like phoenix reborn from the ashes. This may be a good time to reflect on the benefit of repeat locations, simply because we would be able to improve upon previous experiences, and not just struggle to replicate them.
For example, one thing we almost always pledge to do is more public outreach at Wikimanias, but this is rarely done with any real resources because it’s the first thing dropped when time and budgets get tight.
-Andrew
On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 2:03 AM, Natacha Rault n.rault@me.com wrote:
Dear All,
Making sure that safety requirements are met sure is important, and in view of the previous discussions there is a balance to find between opening to new geographic communities and securing our own community. I would like to point out somerhing more: concerning the gender gap, many women I came to know last year are not able to attend such events for the following reason:
- no children / teenager activities proposed from the beginning to people
outside the organizing team
- no baby sitting fees reimbursed for parents attending
- no reduction or scholarships for single parents (wether LGBT man or
woman alltogether)
- the cost if moving a whole family (plane and train ticket) is not
adressed for family members
- late answers to such questions make it impossible to organize (one does
need to think ahead to organize a childcare at home or elsewhere)
I think these issues are also important and need to be discussed if we want to reduce the gender gap.
Kind regards
Nattes à chat
Le 9 nov. 2016 à 17:43, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a
écrit :
Hoi, What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is about the people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks, GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org
wrote:
Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate
you
not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a point.
- Pax
On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? Thanks, GerardM
On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have,
what we
do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia
is
not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those
other
people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of
all
knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not
go
to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
want
either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
being
fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the
LBGT
community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
aim to
share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of
us.
Thank, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < list-wikimedia@funcrunch.org> wrote:
Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human
rights
and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that I'm concerned not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
those
living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location with
a
poor human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the restrictive restroom laws were passed for example...
- Pax
On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi, > For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
> Our > primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in > the > sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday > destination. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote: > > Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety > >> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific >> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine >> how such a thing could be true. >> >> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>> don't make it appear as if they have. >> >> Thanks, >> Fae >> >> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < >> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >> Hoi, >>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe.
All
>>> the >>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels >>> problematic >>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture >>> for >>> me >>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what
it
>>> >>> stands >> >> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>> to >>> South Africa. >>> >>> -- >> faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
-- Pax Ahimsa Gethen | http://funcrunch.org
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FWIW, there will be daycare at Montreal, for toddlers. I expect that travel expenses are more likely to make this service of use mostly to local attendees, however, since traveling with kids is the bigger impediment.
--Marc
On 2016-11-11 09:30 AM, Andrew Lih wrote:
Just wanted to add that it’s not just women who could use the help on child care in order to attend conferences. It’s just good policy all around.
Dear Marc, this is exactly the problem: focusing only on toddlers and on on-site solutions. when what parent need is focusing on the general problem of childcare wether on the site of wikimania or not.
-Natacha
Le 11 nov. 2016 à 15:56, Marc-Andre marc@uberbox.org a écrit :
FWIW, there will be daycare at Montreal, for toddlers. I expect that travel expenses are more likely to make this service of use mostly to local attendees, however, since traveling with kids is the bigger impediment.
--Marc
On 2016-11-11 09:30 AM, Andrew Lih wrote:
Just wanted to add that it’s not just women who could use the help on child care in order to attend conferences. It’s just good policy all around.
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On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 5:08 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United States. What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, what we do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries Wikipedia is not the house hold name it is in the USA.
Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to further our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those other people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not matter. They do.
We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of those countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum of all knowledge with.
THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not go to the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to Switzerland and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I want either.
If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still being fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help the LBGT community. More importantly in this context it does not help the Wikimedia community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We aim to share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even heard of us. Thank, GerardM
I agree with Gerard. I would rather see the WMF spend $200k on security arrangements to ensure the safety of all participants than only ever schedule Wikimania in cities subjectively determined to be "safe". Wikimania has been in China, in Egypt and in Mexico City - these are not places most would consider "safe" or deeply observant of human and civil rights. One of many values of having the event in areas with troubled environments is to contribute to improving those environments - giving more people access to more knowledge and the values of the Wikimedia movement. Repeatedly having the event in Frankfurt or Montreal will never accomplish that goal as effectively.
We can share knowledge without meetings, we cannot share knowledge without our community. If some of our community cannot be safe well...who cares of meetings then?
Vito
2016-10-18 15:26 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to achieve. Our primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is "sharing in the sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect holiday destination. Thanks, GerardM
On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any specific attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot imagine how such a thing could be true.
Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the safety of LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. Please don't make it appear as if they have.
Thanks, Fae
On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I do care that everybody can come to places where they are safe. All
the
specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels problematic when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big picture for
me
is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and what it
stands
for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to India to South Africa.
-- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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