Hoi,
The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none
certainly no offence is intended.
When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there is a
"risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in the
past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been
rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the
proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they felt
up to it.
This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. Let me
say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they are
the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women
wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before.
Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are mistaken
for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live. Stories
about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... They
are as much a reality, they are as real.
So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when that
stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security is
only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It
means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are only
concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture.
So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being
disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion and
put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for prudence,
we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place as a
worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and
what we have to offer.
When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly matter
that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its
culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an
existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. It is
another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see it
this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it failed
and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist.
Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide. When
we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Gerard,
You have posted several emails on the subject which read as
disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to
this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of
argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk
just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for
a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the
values of the WMF or recognized affiliates.
If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety
of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be
a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your
points on this list.
I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what
might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting
further emails about this particular topic.
Thanks,
Fae
On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hoi,
What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be
realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to
travel
and selecting a place is not about you, it is
about them. It is about the
people we aim to serve.
I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my argument
now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA that
has
been dented by an unfortunate
"democratic" choice by last night's
election.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
list-wikimedia(a)funcrunch.org
wrote:
> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San
> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really appreciate
you
> not pushing last night's election results
in my face to make a point.
>
> - Pax
>
>
>
> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA?
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hoi,
>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not gain
>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United
States.
>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for
propaganda for what we have,
what we
>>> do, who we are and how we do what we
do. In many countries Wikipedia
is
>>> not
>>> the house hold name it is in the USA.
>>>
>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to
further
>>> our movement. Not going to places is
similar to saying that those
other
>>> people, speaking other languages,
with an other culture do not matter.
>>> They
>>> do.
>>>
>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of
those
>>> countries should matter to us, the
people we could share the sum of
all
>>> knowledge with.
>>>
>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge.
>>>
>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should not
go
>>> to
>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to
>>> Switzerland
>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not what I
want
>>> either.
>>>
>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is still
being
>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does
not work. It does not help the
LBGT
>>> community. More importantly in this
context it does not help the
>>> Wikimedia
>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message heard.We
aim
to
>>> share the sum of all knowledge and
many people have not even heard of
us.
>>> Thank,
>>> GerardM
>>>
>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen <
>>> list-wikimedia(a)funcrunch.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about
human
rights
>>>> and dignity. That's why I
emphasized in my original post that I'm
>>>> concerned
>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also about
those
>>>> living in the host country. The
choice of a venue in a location with
a
>>>> poor
>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and our
>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major
companies
>>>> pulled their events and funding
out of North Carolina after the
>>>> restrictive
>>>> restroom laws were passed for example...
>>>>
>>>> - Pax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hoi,
>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to
achieve.
>>>>> Our
>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is
"sharing in
>>>>> the
>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect
holiday
>>>>> destination.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> GerardM
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other safety
>>>>>
>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any
specific
>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot
imagine
>>>>>> how such a thing could be true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the
safety of
>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be
"prioritized" over other safety aspects.
Please
>>>>>> don't make it appear
as if they have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen <
>>>>>> gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are
safe.
All
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels
>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big
picture
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and
what
it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stands
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to
India
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> South Africa.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> faewik(a)gmail.com
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> --
> Pax Ahimsa Gethen |
http://funcrunch.org
--
faewik(a)gmail.com
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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