In the last few months i was deeply involved with several big translation projects for Wikimedia: The Fundraising, Sue's March Update letter, and the Editor's survey.
What's common to all of them is that the original English texts were written without keeping localization in mind, or maybe not keeping it in mind *enough*. I wouldn't ask for such a thing from a poet or a journalist, but i would expect it from a writer of a text that has a particular function - to raise money from various countries, to describe the state of a multilingual community, or to conduct a worldwide research - and about which it is known that it will be translated to dozens of very different languages, each with a culture behind it.
I can give several examples:
==Eternal September== Sue's letter links to the English Wikipedia article [[Eternal September]]. The fact that it's an English Wikipedia article is already a problem - for people who don't know English linking there is pointless.
But there's more to it. Since the letter was published, it was translated to several languages, and some translators also went the extra mile to create the [[Eternal September]] article in their respective Wikipedias. Until here, all good. Now, i don't know about other languages, but in the Hebrew Wikipedia such articles are sometimes proposed for deletion, because they are about "foreign expressions which are not used in Hebrew". I completely disagree with such reasoning and i created this article nevertheless, but the fact is that it happens and in addition to translating it could have had to jump through the hoops of a deletion discussion.
This is only one possible implication out of many that are imaginable. I'm not telling the future writers of letters to the community not to link to the English Wikipedia; i'm just telling them to keep in mind that it may involve more than they think it does.
==WikiLove, Twinkle and Huggle== Sue mentions the WikiLove gadget in her letter. To the best of my knowledge WikiLove only works in the English Wikipedia, but the letter invites all readers to use it. Believe it or not, some Wikipedias don't even have barnstars.
The survey mentions Twinkle and Huggle. These gadgets are also specific to the English Wikipedia. They were adapted to other projects, but not to all of them; for example, i couldn't find them in the very large French and Portuguese Wikipedias. Asking editors of these Wikipedias about Twinkle and Huggle is not just pointless, but patronizing, too.
(This gadget thing is a part of a larger issue: gadgets development is not coordinated, even though many of them could be useful to all projects.)
==Gender in the survey== I already wrote about this: Surveys tend to be long lists of questions in the second person. This is not a problem in English, but in some languages the second person is strongly gender-dependent. IIRC, the translations are supposed to be finished by today. If the survey would be announced earlier, the translators would have time to write a feminine version and developers would have time to think of modifying LimeSurvey to actually support it. (Actually i haven't completely given up on it yet.)
==Nationality in the survey== The survey asks about "Nationality". This term is not consistent even in English: it may mean the place of birth, the place of current citizenship, the genetic ethnic group, the national identity and other things. In Russian, my native language, the related word (национальность) refers *only* to the ethnic group. I happen to be aware of the ambiguity in English, so i bothered to ask about the precise meaning, but another translator - certainly, in good faith - translated it as "ethnic group" (i asked to correct it). And in the first place the survey should have been written as unambiguously as possible.
==Currencies in the Fundraising== In the Fundraising letters currencies were mentioned. These currencies are not relevant for the whole world.
==Repetition== Some texts are repetitive, for example whole sentences in the Fundraising letters and "choose all that apply" in the survey. But they aren't marked as such - they are just copied and pasted. MediaWiki has templates for that! Another thing that must be done to reduce repetitiveness is migrating to a proper translating platform instead of plain MediaWiki; see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28021 .
I have many more examples of such problems. Of course, i understand that a writer in English cannot think of everything in advance and i don't want to stifle the creativity of the writers; and i do believe that there is creativity behind this texts, even though they are more functional than artistic. All i'm asking is to think about these examples and to remember that a. texts had to be translated. b. translation has more implications than you initially imagine.
Thank you for understanding.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com "We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
Just to point out that that Huggle does work in the Portuguese Wikipedia, although it is not totally localized ( http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Huggle).
I also felt that the letter was very specific to the English Wikipedia, which makes it hard to transmit the message to other languages. I ditto about gadget development. I know it is hard to know how things would work in many languages, but something could be done better to promote localisation. Not all communities have many programmers that can create these gadgets from scratch.
User:GoEThe
On 3/23/11 6:17 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
==WikiLove, Twinkle and Huggle== Sue mentions the WikiLove gadget in her letter. To the best of my knowledge WikiLove only works in the English Wikipedia, but the letter invites all readers to use it. Believe it or not, some Wikipedias don't even have barnstars.
All of these gadgets, including Wikilove, exist in other languages. Not mentioning them because they haven't been ported to every language would be a bit extreme. I also don't really understand your point about linking to 'Eternal September'. You say that you aren't suggesting that people not link to English Wikipedia, but then what is the point of your argument? Are you suggesting that we pre-translate every linked article into all 269 languages and then protect them all as well? Obviously that isn't very practical.
Ryan Kaldari
Well, Amir, correct if i'm wrong.
Ryan, what he is saying is that all we translate is 100% (or 90% in some cases) focused in English spoken world (in some cases only in USA). Which is good for you to read, but for us - with differents languages and complete differents cultures - create many translations / understanding problems.
We are not asking to remove all english references, only to think a little bit more in how things can be understand by "no english" readers. _____ *Béria Lima* http://wikimedia.pt/ (351) 925 171 484
*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer.***
2011/3/23 Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.org
On 3/23/11 6:17 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
==WikiLove, Twinkle and Huggle== Sue mentions the WikiLove gadget in her letter. To the best of my knowledge WikiLove only works in the English Wikipedia, but the letter invites all readers to use it. Believe it or not, some Wikipedias don't even have barnstars.
All of these gadgets, including Wikilove, exist in other languages. Not mentioning them because they haven't been ported to every language would be a bit extreme. I also don't really understand your point about linking to 'Eternal September'. You say that you aren't suggesting that people not link to English Wikipedia, but then what is the point of your argument? Are you suggesting that we pre-translate every linked article into all 269 languages and then protect them all as well? Obviously that isn't very practical.
Ryan Kaldari
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2011/3/23 Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.org:
On 3/23/11 6:17 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
==WikiLove, Twinkle and Huggle== Sue mentions the WikiLove gadget in her letter. To the best of my knowledge WikiLove only works in the English Wikipedia, but the letter invites all readers to use it. Believe it or not, some Wikipedias don't even have barnstars.
All of these gadgets, including Wikilove, exist in other languages. Not mentioning them because they haven't been ported to every language would be a bit extreme.
It exists in some languages; I didn't count, but it probably doesn't exist in even half of them. Correct me if i'm wrong. The letter is addressed to community members in all language projects and it mentions Wikilove as if it was universal.
Consider this wording: "In the English Wikipedia there's a tool called 'WikiLove'; if your Wikipedia has it, try it; if your Wikipedia doesn't have it, consider adapting it." It's factually correct and constructive. Just saying "Wikilove" and linking to the English Wikipedia ignores the existence of other language projects.
In the Hebrew translation i took the liberty to translate it accordingly and added "this tool works only in the English Wikipedia" in parentheses. (It works in some others, but i didn't have an easy way to find out in which ones, and in he.wp we don't hand out barnstars at all, although we are considering to start doing it.) Translators to other languages just translated that part word-for-word, leaving the readers confused.
I also don't really understand your point about linking to 'Eternal September'. You say that you aren't suggesting that people not link to English Wikipedia, but then what is the point of your argument? Are you suggesting that we pre-translate every linked article into all 269 languages and then protect them all as well? Obviously that isn't very practical.
Yes, it isn't practical. I'm not telling anyone to do that. I'm just asking people who write something that is supposed to be translated to keep that in mind. See the subject.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com "We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
That makes sense. I agree that much of the Foundation's messaging is English-centric, although I know it is sometimes challenging to accomodate other languages and cultures, especially on a tight deadline (speaking from my experiences during the fundraiser). Obviously the Foundation has room for improvement here, and I agree that giving more notice would be a good first step. Regarding the Translate extension, what is the current status of this? Can the Translate extension interface with MediaWiki messages directly or only via i18n files? Has there ever been a proposal to turn on the extension for Meta (other than the Bugzilla bug)? Are there any blocking issues that would prevent this from being feasible? I'm also interested in improving the translation system for CentralNotice, so maybe the Translation extension could help.
Ryan Kaldari
On 3/23/11 10:53 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
2011/3/23 Ryan Kaldarirkaldari@wikimedia.org:
On 3/23/11 6:17 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
==WikiLove, Twinkle and Huggle== Sue mentions the WikiLove gadget in her letter. To the best of my knowledge WikiLove only works in the English Wikipedia, but the letter invites all readers to use it. Believe it or not, some Wikipedias don't even have barnstars.
All of these gadgets, including Wikilove, exist in other languages. Not mentioning them because they haven't been ported to every language would be a bit extreme.
It exists in some languages; I didn't count, but it probably doesn't exist in even half of them. Correct me if i'm wrong. The letter is addressed to community members in all language projects and it mentions Wikilove as if it was universal.
Consider this wording: "In the English Wikipedia there's a tool called 'WikiLove'; if your Wikipedia has it, try it; if your Wikipedia doesn't have it, consider adapting it." It's factually correct and constructive. Just saying "Wikilove" and linking to the English Wikipedia ignores the existence of other language projects.
In the Hebrew translation i took the liberty to translate it accordingly and added "this tool works only in the English Wikipedia" in parentheses. (It works in some others, but i didn't have an easy way to find out in which ones, and in he.wp we don't hand out barnstars at all, although we are considering to start doing it.) Translators to other languages just translated that part word-for-word, leaving the readers confused.
I also don't really understand your point about linking to 'Eternal September'. You say that you aren't suggesting that people not link to English Wikipedia, but then what is the point of your argument? Are you suggesting that we pre-translate every linked article into all 269 languages and then protect them all as well? Obviously that isn't very practical.
Yes, it isn't practical. I'm not telling anyone to do that. I'm just asking people who write something that is supposed to be translated to keep that in mind. See the subject.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com "We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
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On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.org wrote:
Regarding the Translate extension, what is the current status of this? Can the Translate extension interface with MediaWiki messages directly or only via i18n files?
Yes, it can be. See http://userbase.kde.org/Translation_Workflow for a working example.
Has there ever been a proposal to turn on the extension for Meta (other than the Bugzilla bug)? Are there any blocking issues that would prevent this from being feasible?
Well, getting it reviewed is a big first step, then the translation community would have to evaluate the current process and the extension and see what would be the best thing to do.
I'm of the opinion that both wikis and the translation extensions are *tools* -- we should use whichever tool works best for that specific request. Like Amir says, the translate extension does have places where it's awesome: repetitive surveys, fundraising messages, etc. However, there are definitely cases where wikis work better, such as whole pages or letters. We also shouldn't ignore the fact that we have even more tools that we can evaluate. A few French users recently worked on the survey translation in Etherpad. This interface allows them to all translate the same time, in real-time, with all of their edits in different colors, and with a built-in "chat" feature.
All of the tools have their own pros and cons, and we'll have to evaluate those. We might end up choosing one tool for one request, a different tool for another request, etc. A major step is getting the extension reviewed first, though.
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