Hello, everyone.
I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation. He has been posting very frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list. He will be unmoderated next month.
A.
Gerard, ... he has good points too, even if he is stubborn like a mule - like the rest og us! ;)
11. feb. 2017 19.49 skrev "Asaf Bartov" abartov@wikimedia.org:
Hello, everyone.
I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation. He has been posting very frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list. He will be unmoderated next month.
A. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
In the interests of clarity, does the soft limit apply by calendar month? I don’t think Gerard is disrespectful so much as brusque in his communication style. Perhaps this is due to communicating in what is for him a foreign language. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Asaf Bartov Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 8:49 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation notice
Hello, everyone.
I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation. He has been posting very frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list. He will be unmoderated next month.
A. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello, everyone.
I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation. He has been posting very frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list. He will be unmoderated next month.
asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe, and you need to use moderation instead of a private word? i have a hard time believing my eyes.
On 11 Feb 2017, at 19:08, rupert THURNER rupert.thurner@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello, everyone.
I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation. He has been posting very frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list. He will be unmoderated next month.
asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe, and you need to use moderation instead of a private word? i have a hard time believing my eyes.
Which species of dinosaur?
This seems like a standard moderator action, based on the long-term notices that have been sent around to the list over the last few years. I like the extra on-list transparency here (please keep it up!), and would like to thank Asaf for taking on this extra duty.
Thanks, Mike
On 11 February 2017 at 21:18, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
asaf, you are one of the most respected dinosaurs in this universe,
Which species of dinosaur?
Wikisourus, of course.
When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I checked and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news to the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hello, everyone.
I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation. He has been posting very frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list. He will be unmoderated next month.
A. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I checked and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news to the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.
Thanks for the note, Jane. Everyone should keep cultural differences in mind--it's a source of strife on this list, to be sure, to say nothing of my marriage, and I suppose the entire Internet.
Austin
Believe me, I hear you!
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I
checked
and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here
that
the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells
it
all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news
to
the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.
Thanks for the note, Jane. Everyone should keep cultural differences in mind--it's a source of strife on this list, to be sure, to say nothing of my marriage, and I suppose the entire Internet.
Austin
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Calling that anyone who does not want a banner = someone who does not care for our colleagues, is very very disrespectful.
That is way beyond the line of what can be accepted.
Romaine
Op maandag 13 februari 2017 heeft Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:
When I first read this I didn't think twice about it, because Gerard has often gone over the 30 message limit, so nothing new. But after reading later comments I see that he was disrespectful? I don't think so. I checked and indeed he didn't go over his limit in January. The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie It's little things like this that make adding English-language Tech news to the Dutch Village pump a bit controversial btw.
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Asaf Bartov <abartov@wikimedia.org javascript:;> wrote:
Hello, everyone.
I share the opinion that moderation actions should be transparent. So:
I have now placed Gerard Meijssen on moderation. He has been posting
very
frequently to the list, far exceeding the requested "soft limit" of 30 posts per month, and has exhibited disrespectful discourse.
I encourage Gerard to revise his approach to communicating on this list. He will be unmoderated next month.
A. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:;
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It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during WWII as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
Translating between languages are fun! =)
John
13. feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" jane023@gmail.com:
… The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie
Same in French...
Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :
It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during WWII as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
Translating between languages are fun! =)
John
- feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" jane023@gmail.com:
… The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
There are words in other languages that have a rude, upleasant, disrespectful or pejorative meaning in British English. For an amusing list of examples, see the Oxford Dictionary blog at http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/02/words-that-sound-rude/
I presume that I'm entitled to be complain when they are used in email list exchanges, even when those exchanges are being conducted primarily in those other languages?
Returning now to the subject of the thread, I have no problem with Gerard's posts, even if I have not always found them easy to understand, and see no special reason to restrict his access to this list.
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Florence Devouard fdevouard@gmail.com wrote:
Same in French...
Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :
It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during WWII as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
Translating between languages are fun! =)
John
- feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" jane023@gmail.com:
… The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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It's okay that some people disagree with this moderation action (others agree, even if they do not say so on-list). This list is not moderated by whole-list-consensus.
I have provided the reason for moderation, without going into details. To do so would be to invite drama, which moderation exists to reduce. The reason is informed by more than one incident, and not necessarily focused on cultural differences, as some assumed.
Gerard will be unmoderated on March 1st. As always, he is (and other moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then, and if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
A.
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:50 AM Rogol Domedonfors domedonfors@gmail.com wrote:
There are words in other languages that have a rude, upleasant, disrespectful or pejorative meaning in British English. For an amusing list of examples, see the Oxford Dictionary blog at http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/02/words-that-sound-rude/
I presume that I'm entitled to be complain when they are used in email list exchanges, even when those exchanges are being conducted primarily in those other languages?
Returning now to the subject of the thread, I have no problem with Gerard's posts, even if I have not always found them easy to understand, and see no special reason to restrict his access to this list.
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Florence Devouard fdevouard@gmail.com wrote:
Same in French...
Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :
It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during
WWII
as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
Translating between languages are fun! =)
John
- feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" jane023@gmail.com:
… The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that spells it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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As promised, Gerard has been unmoderated, FYI.
A.
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:56 AM Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
It's okay that some people disagree with this moderation action (others agree, even if they do not say so on-list). This list is not moderated by whole-list-consensus.
I have provided the reason for moderation, without going into details. To do so would be to invite drama, which moderation exists to reduce. The reason is informed by more than one incident, and not necessarily focused on cultural differences, as some assumed.
Gerard will be unmoderated on March 1st. As always, he is (and other moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then, and if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
A.
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:50 AM Rogol Domedonfors domedonfors@gmail.com wrote:
There are words in other languages that have a rude, upleasant, disrespectful or pejorative meaning in British English. For an amusing list of examples, see the Oxford Dictionary blog at http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/02/words-that-sound-rude/
I presume that I'm entitled to be complain when they are used in email
list
exchanges, even when those exchanges are being conducted primarily in
those
other languages?
Returning now to the subject of the thread, I have no problem with
Gerard's
posts, even if I have not always found them easy to understand, and see
no
special reason to restrict his access to this list.
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 4:34 PM, Florence Devouard fdevouard@gmail.com wrote:
Same in French...
Le 13/02/2017 à 12:35, John Erling Blad a écrit :
It is common to refer to those that cooperated with the Nazis during
WWII
as "kollaboratører" (kollaborators) in Norwegian too. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaborat%C3%B8r
Translating between languages are fun! =)
John
- feb. 2017 09.08 skrev "Jane Darnell" jane023@gmail.com:
… The only disrespectful thing I could find in his recent edits was his remark that he is not a collaborator because his cultural heritage assumes "collaborators" are "nazis", which is offensive in English. I would like to point out here that the word collaborator really does mean nazi in Dutch. It's one of many translation challenges, so there is even a Wikipedia article that
spells
it all out: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboratie _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:56 AM Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote: \
It's okay that some people disagree with this moderation action (others agree, even if they do not say so on-list). This list is not moderated by whole-list-consensus.
...
Gerard will be unmoderated on March 1st. As always, he is (and other moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then, and if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
That has not been my experience. In fact the last time I sent a coherently-explained, completely civil, on-topic,and time-sensitive email to the list, it was held by a moderator who:
A) Suggested I was "trolling the WMF" (is trolling an entire 100-person-plus organization even possible?)
B) Faulted it on bases including that I used the phrase "couple days" (i.e. "this might take a couple days") rather than his preferred formulation "couple *of* days"
C) Put it up for a consensus vote among the other list moderators.
I see the list has some new moderators, but I figure odds are this email will be stopped as well.
Trillium Corsage
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:20 AM Trillium Corsage trillium2014@yandex.com wrote:
As always, he is (and other moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then,
and
if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
That has not been my experience. In fact the last time I sent a coherently-explained, completely civil, on-topic,and time-sensitive email to the list, it was held by a moderator who:
A) Suggested I was "trolling the WMF" (is trolling an entire 100-person-plus organization even possible?)
B) Faulted it on bases including that I used the phrase "couple days" (i.e. "this might take a couple days") rather than his preferred formulation "couple *of* days"
C) Put it up for a consensus vote among the other list moderators.
I see the list has some new moderators, but I figure odds are this email will be stopped as well.
Not on my watch. I have no access to past conversations so cannot comment on the conversation you say you have had with list admins in the past, but I will state for the record that I think grammatical imperfections (real or perceived) are absolutely not an acceptable reason to withhold a message from the list. The vast majority of subscribers are not native speakers of English, and even if they were, language snobbery is an anti-pattern for constructive communication.
Re trolling, I am personally very wary of applying that label, and lean toward avoiding it in all but the most extreme cases. Neither a favorable opinion of the WIkimedia Foundation, nor a real-world identity, are a prerequisite for posting on this list. It is perfectly acceptable and on-topic to question or criticize the Wikimedia Foundation on this list, so long as one adheres to basic rules of discourse: remaining civil, concise, on-topic, and respectful in the face of disagreement; avoiding repetition, aggression, and irrelevant hobby-horses; etc.
A.
FYI, and to finish this matter off for the list:
"Not on my watch. I have no access to past conversations so cannot comment on the conversation you say you have had with list admins in the past..." says Asaf.
I furnished Asaf with verbatim copies of the relevant emails that he may be confident it was not merely a "conversations I "say" I have had."
It is accurate though that I erred by recalling that the list moderator suggested I was "trolling" when he actually used the word "baiting."
Trillium Corsage
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 11:20 AM Trillium Corsage trillium2014@yandex.com wrote:
As always, he is (and other moderated users are) welcome to submit posts to the list before then,
and
if the posts are respectful and on-topic, they would be let through.
That has not been my experience. In fact the last time I sent a coherently-explained, completely civil, on-topic,and time-sensitive email to the list, it was held by a moderator who:
A) Suggested I was "trolling the WMF" (is trolling an entire 100-person-plus organization even possible?)
B) Faulted it on bases including that I used the phrase "couple days" (i.e. "this might take a couple days") rather than his preferred formulation "couple *of* days"
C) Put it up for a consensus vote among the other list moderators.
I see the list has some new moderators, but I figure odds are this email will be stopped as well.
Not on my watch. I have no access to past conversations so cannot comment on the conversation you say you have had with list admins in the past, but I will state for the record that I think grammatical imperfections (real or perceived) are absolutely not an acceptable reason to withhold a message from the list. The vast majority of subscribers are not native speakers of English, and even if they were, language snobbery is an anti-pattern for constructive communication.
Re trolling, I am personally very wary of applying that label, and lean toward avoiding it in all but the most extreme cases. Neither a favorable opinion of the WIkimedia Foundation, nor a real-world identity, are a prerequisite for posting on this list. It is perfectly acceptable and on-topic to question or criticize the Wikimedia Foundation on this list, so long as one adheres to basic rules of discourse: remaining civil, concise, on-topic, and respectful in the face of disagreement; avoiding repetition, aggression, and irrelevant hobby-horses; etc.
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