Gerard, I find your response (which fails to address the issues I have raised) abrasive bordering on offensive. I also note that this will not be the first time *today* that someone has requested that you tone it down. What is clear though is that we have a snowflake's chance in hell of convincing you there is a problem, so I'm going to add you to a large (and growing) list of trolls and ignore your 'contributions' from now on.
Presumably WMF has lawyer(s) somewhere. What would be the process of getting them to take a look at this with a view to having the French chapter put into place the requisite disclaimers?
Sam
Lennart: Illegal content results in individuals being pursued, arrested and charged and snarky articles being written by old media, not outrageous (albeit largely unjustified) claims for damages (and leverage via commercial third parties):
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/01/statutory-damages-not-high-e...
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, What WMF server allows anonymous uploads of images ? Do you know if this makes any difference any way ? Who do you think you get an invoice from? Not the WMF not its chapters. So please THINK
Why bother us with such tripe that is irrelevant to the thread anyway ? Thanks, GerardM
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net:
Material in the public domain or under a fully free licence does not require any kind of fair use consideration.
I'm not talking about genuinely free material, I'm talking about
protected
(copyrighted/trademarked) material being uploaded by others - for
example
a
periodic table of elements or medical charts which would normally be
subject
to deletion (except that they are currently immediately available for sale!).
I'm a little confused - surely we would delete this stuff whether or not there's a "buy a print now" clickthrough button? I can't see anyone arguing to keep it because they want to run off a poster...
(and to a degree this is rendered moot by that helpful "lowest useful resolution" requirement of the unfree material rules)
- Upload high-resolution copyrighted image littered with trademarks as
anonymous user. 2. Immediately order poster of said image. 3. File against WMF, its chapter(s) and the printer for good measure claiming [RI|MP]AA sized damages for copyright and trademark infringement, submitting said poster(s) and invoice(s) as evidence. 4. ??? 5. Profit!
Note that these steps need not necessarily be completed by the same parties. I'm not sure that the courts would have much leeway here (as they might were the image not used commercially as was the case before this function was launched).
Sam _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hoi, In your post the crucial bit is that a liability results as a consequence of an invoice from either the Wikimedia Foundation or from a WMF chapter. This will not happen because you buy a print from a printer. Our terms of service explicitly state that we do our utmost to ensure that our products are free to use but that we do not guarantee this.
As to convincing me that there is a problem, first make plain what the problem is and when a little bit of analysis shows that you did not make it plain, you indeed have no chance in hell of convincing me. If you know anything at all of the WMF you would know the number of lawyers it employs. He is a busy man and I am sure that he knows when to keep his powder dry. Thanks, GerardM
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net
Gerard, I find your response (which fails to address the issues I have raised) abrasive bordering on offensive. I also note that this will not be the first time *today* that someone has requested that you tone it down. What is clear though is that we have a snowflake's chance in hell of convincing you there is a problem, so I'm going to add you to a large (and growing) list of trolls and ignore your 'contributions' from now on.
Presumably WMF has lawyer(s) somewhere. What would be the process of getting them to take a look at this with a view to having the French chapter put into place the requisite disclaimers?
Sam
Lennart: Illegal content results in individuals being pursued, arrested and charged and snarky articles being written by old media, not outrageous (albeit largely unjustified) claims for damages (and leverage via commercial third parties):
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/01/statutory-damages-not-high-e...
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, What WMF server allows anonymous uploads of images ? Do you know if this makes any difference any way ? Who do you think you get an invoice from?
Not
the WMF not its chapters. So please THINK
Why bother us with such tripe that is irrelevant to the thread anyway ? Thanks, GerardM
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net:
Material in the public domain or under a fully free licence does
not
require any kind of fair use consideration.
I'm not talking about genuinely free material, I'm talking about
protected
(copyrighted/trademarked) material being uploaded by others - for
example
a
periodic table of elements or medical charts which would normally be
subject
to deletion (except that they are currently immediately available
for
sale!).
I'm a little confused - surely we would delete this stuff whether or not there's a "buy a print now" clickthrough button? I can't see anyone arguing to keep it because they want to run off a poster...
(and to a degree this is rendered moot by that helpful "lowest useful resolution" requirement of the unfree material rules)
- Upload high-resolution copyrighted image littered with trademarks as
anonymous user. 2. Immediately order poster of said image. 3. File against WMF, its chapter(s) and the printer for good measure claiming [RI|MP]AA sized damages for copyright and trademark
infringement,
submitting said poster(s) and invoice(s) as evidence. 4. ??? 5. Profit!
Note that these steps need not necessarily be completed by the same parties. I'm not sure that the courts would have much leeway here (as they might were the image not used commercially as was the case before this function was launched).
Sam _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, In your post the crucial bit is that a liability results as a consequence of an invoice from either the Wikimedia Foundation or from a WMF chapter.
False.
"Furthermore, while WMF *may* be safe from attack on the grounds that *it* is both non-profit and at arms length from the transaction itself, things are certainly less clear for the commercial printer who could well find themselves in serious trouble. What contract(s) are in place to cover WMF & its chapter(s) in the case that such a supplier (rightly?) seeks recourse because we have made such material available to them?"
Sam
What he is pointing out is that the chapter set up the whole process, thus making them culpable.
________________________________ From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:14:45 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Commons and The Year of the Picture
Hoi, In your post the crucial bit is that a liability results as a consequence of an invoice from either the Wikimedia Foundation or from a WMF chapter. This will not happen because you buy a print from a printer. Our terms of service explicitly state that we do our utmost to ensure that our products are free to use but that we do not guarantee this.
As to convincing me that there is a problem, first make plain what the problem is and when a little bit of analysis shows that you did not make it plain, you indeed have no chance in hell of convincing me. If you know anything at all of the WMF you would know the number of lawyers it employs. He is a busy man and I am sure that he knows when to keep his powder dry. Thanks, GerardM
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net
Gerard, I find your response (which fails to address the issues I have raised) abrasive bordering on offensive. I also note that this will not be the first time *today* that someone has requested that you tone it down. What is clear though is that we have a snowflake's chance in hell of convincing you there is a problem, so I'm going to add you to a large (and growing) list of trolls and ignore your 'contributions' from now on.
Presumably WMF has lawyer(s) somewhere. What would be the process of getting them to take a look at this with a view to having the French chapter put into place the requisite disclaimers?
Sam
Lennart: Illegal content results in individuals being pursued, arrested and charged and snarky articles being written by old media, not outrageous (albeit largely unjustified) claims for damages (and leverage via commercial third parties):
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/01/statutory-damages-not-high-e...
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.comwrote:
Hoi, What WMF server allows anonymous uploads of images ? Do you know if this makes any difference any way ? Who do you think you get an invoice from?
Not
the WMF not its chapters. So please THINK
Why bother us with such tripe that is irrelevant to the thread anyway ? Thanks, GerardM
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:
2009/1/28 Sam Johnston samj@samj.net:
Material in the public domain or under a fully free licence does
not
require any kind of fair use consideration.
I'm not talking about genuinely free material, I'm talking about
protected
(copyrighted/trademarked) material being uploaded by others - for
example
a
periodic table of elements or medical charts which would normally be
subject
to deletion (except that they are currently immediately available
for
sale!).
I'm a little confused - surely we would delete this stuff whether or not there's a "buy a print now" clickthrough button? I can't see anyone arguing to keep it because they want to run off a poster...
(and to a degree this is rendered moot by that helpful "lowest useful resolution" requirement of the unfree material rules)
- Upload high-resolution copyrighted image littered with trademarks as
anonymous user. 2. Immediately order poster of said image. 3. File against WMF, its chapter(s) and the printer for good measure claiming [RI|MP]AA sized damages for copyright and trademark
infringement,
submitting said poster(s) and invoice(s) as evidence. 4. ??? 5. Profit!
Note that these steps need not necessarily be completed by the same parties. I'm not sure that the courts would have much leeway here (as they might were the image not used commercially as was the case before this function was launched).
Sam _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Hello,
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.plrd@yahoo.com wrote:
What he is pointing out is that the chapter set up the whole process, thus making them culpable.
The French chapter didn't set up anything. The chapter merely agreed to accept the donations that the printer chooses to make (and I say "merely" because I'm not even sure they could refuse the donations anyway) and to send a press release, as for any other relevant news about Wikimedia projects.
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org