Dear community,
First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation needed}} to that person's saying.
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years before only twice that ill.
I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest in the other.
I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our movement would respect me in my diversity.
Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different gender identification. In other words: LGBT+ Also I am autistic, having aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory), etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit socially clumsy.
The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone. In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals, with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made. Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy insult to me.
Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues, as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero results, zero self reflection.
There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised complaint handling that works independently.
Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank you!
As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is: thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you all the best!
Romaine
One way or another, as nerds, we are all weird. I felt in love with this movement when I realized that anyone inside would not have felt a stranger. I live in Rome, where there is the habit of hugging and / or kissing each other on one cheek and another when we meet. In the Arab world I saw that the kisses they give are 3. At this point, I will think twice before doing it. In the MeeToo era we must be careful not to exaggerate, striving to understand the difference between harassment and what can sometimes be rudeness only or, in this case, sensitivity and affection expressed in another way congenital to us.
Let us remember that behind what we perceive as "different" there is a human being, with his story and his desire for interment and to be part of something greater, a community.
I will miss you Romaine, I will miss your tenderness and I am so sorry about how things went and how bad you are.
I don't know about you wikipedians, but I feel terribly sad. And defeat, because I don't understand what's happening to us.
*Camelia*
Il giorno gio 20 giu 2019 alle ore 13:15 Romaine Wiki < romaine.wiki@gmail.com> ha scritto:
Dear community,
First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation needed}} to that person's saying.
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years before only twice that ill.
I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest in the other.
I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our movement would respect me in my diversity.
Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different gender identification. In other words: LGBT+ Also I am autistic, having aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory), etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit socially clumsy.
The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone. In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals, with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made. Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy insult to me.
Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues, as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero results, zero self reflection.
There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised complaint handling that works independently.
Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank you!
As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is: thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you all the best!
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hi Romaine,
I completely agree with Camelia, and would like to echo the same.
Most of us are weird in some way, so don't feel bad. Even after meeting hundreds of people from all over the world, I still have a very hard time socialising "normally". I've been this way pretty much as far as I can remember. But the diverseness (a.k.a. weirdness) of Wikimedians allowed me to simply be who I am, and be happy. I know a number of people also consider me odd, but as of lately I'm now more than ok with that.
That being said, most of the time it is so easy for people to hurt others by reacting without thinking, even for the briefest of moments. And unfortunate things can happen in the best places we know. My little advise would be to let it go and move on. Don't let it get the best of you. Hopefully those who put you down, intentionally or unintentionally, will step-up to make things right someday.
I've met you a number of times in various parts of the world, although briefly on all occasions (I'm bad at maintaining long conversations - a party pooper of sorts!), and I know from your words, expressions, and body language, that your are an amazing person with a very warm heart.
Cheer up, and don't cling on darker thoughts. It troubles no one other than the person clinging to it.
Goodnight from here.
Yours truly,
Rehman Abubakr (Roy)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rehman
OTRS agent, Admin (English Wikipedia, Commons), Contributor (Wikidata, Meta) User:Rehmanhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rehman | Talkpagehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rehman | rehman.wikimedia@live.commailto:rehman.wikimedia@live.com | UG-LKhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Community_User_Group_Sri_Lanka/English
________________________________ From: Wikimedia-l wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org on behalf of camelia boban camelia.boban@gmail.com Sent: 20 June 2019 19:57 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
One way or another, as nerds, we are all weird. I felt in love with this movement when I realized that anyone inside would not have felt a stranger. I live in Rome, where there is the habit of hugging and / or kissing each other on one cheek and another when we meet. In the Arab world I saw that the kisses they give are 3. At this point, I will think twice before doing it. In the MeeToo era we must be careful not to exaggerate, striving to understand the difference between harassment and what can sometimes be rudeness only or, in this case, sensitivity and affection expressed in another way congenital to us.
Let us remember that behind what we perceive as "different" there is a human being, with his story and his desire for interment and to be part of something greater, a community.
I will miss you Romaine, I will miss your tenderness and I am so sorry about how things went and how bad you are.
I don't know about you wikipedians, but I feel terribly sad. And defeat, because I don't understand what's happening to us.
*Camelia*
Il giorno gio 20 giu 2019 alle ore 13:15 Romaine Wiki < romaine.wiki@gmail.com> ha scritto:
Dear community,
First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation needed}} to that person's saying.
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years before only twice that ill.
I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest in the other.
I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our movement would respect me in my diversity.
Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different gender identification. In other words: LGBT+ Also I am autistic, having aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory), etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit socially clumsy.
The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone. In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals, with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made. Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy insult to me.
Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues, as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero results, zero self reflection.
There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised complaint handling that works independently.
Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank you!
As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is: thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you all the best!
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi Romaine, I am sad. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Your energy has been inspiring.
I hope that we will find each other whenever, wherever. Thank you Romaine :) Gerard
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:15, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Dear community,
First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation needed}} to that person's saying.
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years before only twice that ill.
I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest in the other.
I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our movement would respect me in my diversity.
Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different gender identification. In other words: LGBT+ Also I am autistic, having aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory), etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit socially clumsy.
The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone. In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals, with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made. Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy insult to me.
Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues, as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero results, zero self reflection.
There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised complaint handling that works independently.
Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank you!
As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is: thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you all the best!
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
It is very sad to read this e-mail. I had the luck of meeting you several times. I wish you the best in your life.
Thank you for all these time working for free knowledge.
El 2019-06-20 17:59, Gerard Meijssen escribió:
Hoi Romaine, I am sad. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Your energy has been inspiring.
I hope that we will find each other whenever, wherever. Thank you Romaine :) Gerard
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:15, Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Dear community,
First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation needed}} to that person's saying.
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years before only twice that ill.
I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest in the other.
I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our movement would respect me in my diversity.
Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different gender identification. In other words: LGBT+ Also I am autistic, having aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory), etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit socially clumsy.
The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone. In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals, with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made. Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy insult to me.
Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues, as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero results, zero self reflection.
There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised complaint handling that works independently.
Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank you!
As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is: thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you all the best!
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your right to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people you hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
individuals.
-- Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Caroline, For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us all he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do not know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It may help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I do not know you at all.
What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are you stuck in your pov. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker carobecker54@gmail.com wrote:
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your right to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people you hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
individuals.
-- Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Her POV ?
Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported. Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have reported Romaine might be reading this.
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Caroline, For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us all he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do not know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It may help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I do not know you at all.
What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are you stuck in your pov. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker carobecker54@gmail.com wrote:
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a
écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
unfortunate
outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
individuals.
-- Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
– Molly (GorillaWarfare) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Her POV ?
Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported. Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have reported Romaine might be reading this.
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Caroline, For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I do not know you at all.
What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
you
stuck in your pov. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker carobecker54@gmail.com wrote:
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
and
grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a
écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
unfortunate
outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
me,
intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
feel
extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
individuals.
-- Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Thanks Molly for your thoughtful words, I really hope your words make some people think about their own replies in this thread.
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 23:42, GorillaWarfare < gorillawarfarewikipedia@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
– Molly (GorillaWarfare) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Her POV ?
Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported. Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have reported Romaine might be reading this.
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Caroline, For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has
quite
the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience,
the
feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know
as I
do not know you at all.
What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
you
stuck in your pov. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker carobecker54@gmail.com wrote:
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
and
grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing
no
willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the
people
you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a
écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
unfortunate
outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <
romaine.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no
longer
attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
me,
intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
feel
extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
individuals.
-- Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Gerard, I think your comment is highly inappropriate. I don't generally like to pile on, but this needs calling out. When discussing these sensitive topics, the very least we can expect, is a careful approach to the matter.
I don't know the underlying situation well enough to establish who's right, to verify claims or to find whether the actions taken are reasonable (be it towards Romaine or towards the complainants). I can only assume you have roughly the same amount of information - and in such a situation a level of humility would be fitting.
We can discuss process, but should never say that involved parties 'make this about themselves'. Leave that determination to those who are actually familiar with all the facts.
Lodewijk
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:03 PM Philip Kopetzky philip.kopetzky@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Molly for your thoughtful words, I really hope your words make some people think about their own replies in this thread.
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 23:42, GorillaWarfare < gorillawarfarewikipedia@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much
about
the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said
on
this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a
multitude
of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
– Molly (GorillaWarfare) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Her POV ?
Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents
reported.
Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list
by
Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who
have
reported Romaine might be reading this.
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Caroline, For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has
quite
the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for
us
all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I
do
not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many.
It
may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience,
the
feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know
as I
do not know you at all.
What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend
are
you
stuck in your pov. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <
carobecker54@gmail.com>
wrote:
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to
learn
and
grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing
no
willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming
your
right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the
people
you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a
écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
unfortunate
outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <
romaine.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
> Dear community, > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no
longer
attend > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to
silence
me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals. >
>
Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of T&S? (when they appear questionable and unsafe) Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.
Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators, believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community. This needs to change. Seriously.
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of T&S? (when they appear questionable and unsafe) Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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The main problem happens when someone considers to don't have received a fair assessment.
I understand that the T&S must have a certain role, but I am sorry for the T&S, the criticisms are part of this role.
Considering that every decision will be accepted unconditionally is not suitable. To ensure a fair trial, in general two levels of evaluation are often created with two different "courts" so those who consider themselves to have been wrongly judged (people can make mistakes), can ask another "independent" court to be evaluated and to confirm or to reject the first level. Here it seems to me that T&S always considers itself on the right side but this sense of infallibility is not the feeling that the community has.
Apart from all what strikes me is that a person must publicly say his sexual tendencies because he believes that he has not been judged correctly and excused, apart from the moral lesson, this thing is very sad because the T&S has produced an act that has committed an even more serious act.
Imagine that the part recognized in error is right, how will the T&S be excused? Will it write a letter of public apology?
Kind regards
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 9:31 AM Philip Kopetzky philip.kopetzky@gmail.com wrote:
Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.
Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators, believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community. This needs to change. Seriously.
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of T&S? (when they appear questionable and unsafe) Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
offenders,
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
Wikimedia
movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect
on
this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Hi Natacha
I am not sure this thread is about whether T&S action was in order or not.
Aside the recent WP:FRAM, I am not aware of a single instance where T&S action's was criticized largely by the community or those you described as official representative of movement/chapters. Most opinion expressed at WP:FRAM are mere speculations and relies entirely on what Fram thought might be the reason for their ban.
That being said, some members of the community who are familiar with Romaine's past works considered them valuable to our movement and I think that should be respected. Interpreting their comments as endorsement of the behaviour that led to T&S's action and criticising official representative of chapters who pen down a farewell note is inappropriate.
Romaine, there are other ways to volunteer and as you may already be aware, you don't have to attend Wikimedia events to add value to our movement. There are plenty of ways to make a difference. Personally, I appreciate your on-wiki works and I hope you will continue the good works. But if you want to quit contributing altogether, I wish you all the best in your future endeavor.
Good luck.
Isaac
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 6:57 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Hi Robert,
I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way to defend yourself appeal.
Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person how flawed the system is.
Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already experimented it failing in first hand.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez wikigamaliel@gmail.com escreveu:
At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
vehicle
for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
really
be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
that I
personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
official
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
offenders,
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
alleged
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
Wikimedia
movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
reflect on
this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously dislike being falsely accused.
Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu:
Hi Robert,
I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way to defend yourself appeal.
Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person how flawed the system is.
Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already experimented it failing in first hand.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez < wikigamaliel@gmail.com> escreveu:
At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
easy to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
vehicle
for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
really
be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
that I
personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
official
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
offenders,
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
alleged
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
Wikimedia
movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
reflect on
this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
the
energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem with everything is connected with WMF?
To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad story and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific conflict publicly. If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open another thread.
Thank you, Camelia
Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> ha scritto:
False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously dislike being falsely accused.
Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu:
Hi Robert,
I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way to defend yourself appeal.
Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person how flawed the system is.
Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
already
experimented it failing in first hand.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez < wikigamaliel@gmail.com> escreveu:
At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
to
verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
easy to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
vehicle
for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
really
be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
that I
personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable
and
wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
official
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
offenders,
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
alleged
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com
a
écrit :
> > It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
Wikimedia
> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
supporting
someone
> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
they
had
to
> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
when
you
> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the > feelings of others." > > If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
why
> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
reflect on
> this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
the
energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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Camelia,
My comment was not about harassment, was about systemic and rampant lack of due process on the part of the WMF. And it's not drama, it's reality.
Paulo
camelia boban camelia.boban@gmail.com escreveu no dia sexta, 21/06/2019 à(s) 15:24:
Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem with everything is connected with WMF?
To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad story and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific conflict publicly. If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open another thread.
Thank you, Camelia
Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> ha scritto:
False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously dislike being falsely accused.
Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu:
Hi Robert,
I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way to defend yourself appeal.
Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person how flawed the system is.
Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
already
experimented it failing in first hand.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez < wikigamaliel@gmail.com> escreveu:
At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
to
verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
easy to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
vehicle
for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
really
be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
that I
personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable
and
wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
official
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
offenders,
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
alleged
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com
a
écrit :
>> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
Wikimedia
>> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
supporting
someone >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
they
had
to >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help
you
when
you >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the >> feelings of others." >> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
why
>> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
reflect on
>> this thread. > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
the
> energy to write. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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If you want to see the entire world through the lens of Kafka, be my guest, but we can't make policy in this movement based on that.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Robert,
I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way to defend yourself appeal.
Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person how flawed the system is.
Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already experimented it failing in first hand.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez wikigamaliel@gmail.com escreveu:
At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Hoi, I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed" person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the imposition of a life time ban.
I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It prevents us from getting to an understanding.\ Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 15:43, Robert Fernandez wikigamaliel@gmail.com wrote:
At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is for. Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability? Or is it so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over the popularity contests of the mob any day.
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:
Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
vehicle
for severe harassment itself.
This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
really
be looked at.
Best, Paulo
A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
that I
personnally find that the actions of Trust& Safety very valuable and wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
official
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
offenders,
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
alleged
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment.
How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T&S are questionned by official members of our movement?
Nattes à chat
Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com a écrit :
It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
Wikimedia
movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
had
to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
when
you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others."
If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
reflect on
this thread.
Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the energy to write.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:24 AM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed" person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the imposition of a life time ban.
I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It prevents us from getting to an understanding.\ Thanks, GerardM
I wish I had articulated so well the source of my shame at being part of a movement that has yielded this result for this case. It seems like self-righteous, crusading intolerance at work.
I think it's OK to mourn the loss of someone's future contributions and participation, without purporting to make a decision on the substance of any accusations. I read Romaine's e-mail and thought it sad that he felt it necessary to withdraw. I also am not blindly trusting of T&S. This is the same team that took the extraordinary and unique step of banning an en.wp admin for saying "fuck arbcom", apparently not anticipating or taking any steps to mitigate the inevitable blowback.
Well, no, this is the team that banned an en.wp admin for reasons they are not able to disclose. It is only community speculation based on a portion of an email sent to the banned user that has led people to draw the same conclusion as you, and I suspect that is not the full story. That, however, is probably a conversation for a different thread, although there are overlapping themes in that someone who has allegedly done something(s) negative towards at least one member of our community is being wholeheartedly defended (and the alleged target vilified) by a community that does not know the whole story.
- Molly White (GorillaWarfare)
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 7:12 PM Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
This is the same team that took the extraordinary and unique step of banning an en.wp admin for saying "fuck arbcom", apparently not anticipating or taking any steps to mitigate the inevitable blowback. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude. This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.
I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is an injustice in its own right. Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Her POV ?
Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported. Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have reported Romaine might be reading this.
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Caroline, For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I do not know you at all.
What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
you
stuck in your pov. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker carobecker54@gmail.com wrote:
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
and
grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a
écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
unfortunate
outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
me,
intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
feel
extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
individuals.
-- Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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You do realize that you can email Romaine privately?
On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 1:18 AM Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude. This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.
I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is an injustice in its own right. Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Her POV ?
Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported. Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have reported Romaine might be reading this.
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Caroline, For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I do not know you at all.
What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
you
stuck in your pov. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker carobecker54@gmail.com wrote:
This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
and
grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no willingness to grow and learn.
But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
Caroline
Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During dcduring@gmail.com a
écrit :
I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
unfortunate
outcome
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear community,
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
me,
intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
feel
extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
individuals.
-- Dennis C. During _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Hi Romaine you know that you are always welcome.
And if you have to categorize yourself to be accepted, we should say that the community is becoming insane.
We accept Romaine because is Romane non because he is man/woman, black/white, LGBT/Etero, etc.
Kind regards
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Dear community,
First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation needed}} to that person's saying.
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years before only twice that ill.
I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest in the other.
I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our movement would respect me in my diversity.
Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different gender identification. In other words: LGBT+ Also I am autistic, having aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory), etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit socially clumsy.
The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone. In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals, with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made. Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy insult to me.
Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues, as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero results, zero self reflection.
There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised complaint handling that works independently.
Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank you!
As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is: thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you all the best!
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I am very sad and depressed with this outcome, especially with someone as Romaine, which I am quite lucky to know personally.
And it is very true that now one has to have eyes in their back and be extra careful when going to WMF run events, as the risk of abuse of T&S is quite real.
Dangerous times.
Paulo
Romaine Wiki romaine.wiki@gmail.com escreveu no dia quinta, 20/06/2019 à(s) 12:15:
Dear community,
First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation needed}} to that person's saying.
About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me, intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years before only twice that ill.
I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest in the other.
I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our movement would respect me in my diversity.
Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different gender identification. In other words: LGBT+ Also I am autistic, having aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory), etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit socially clumsy.
The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone. In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals, with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made. Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy insult to me.
Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues, as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero results, zero self reflection.
There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised complaint handling that works independently.
Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank you!
As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is: thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you all the best!
Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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