Greetings!
Because licensing has been an active topic in the community, the Board has discussed the issue at its recent meetings; thank you to those whose thoughtful input furthered the discussions.
A formal declaration in the form of a Board resolution has not yet been made and will be forthcoming; however, we hope that this longer message will provide the explanation behind the resolution. The resolution will seek to clarify something that has been true for some time but may not have been stated in a clear enough form as guidance for the various communities to follow.
The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to develop educational content under a free content license or in the public domain. For content to be "free content", it must have no significant legal restriction on people's freedom to use, redistribute, or modify the content for any purpose.
It is therefore vital that all projects under the Foundation umbrella use these standards, not only because of our desire to enable the creation of free reference works, but also because of our commitment to allow those works to benefit everyone who wishes to use and reuse them. Because of this, all media we allow on our projects must be free for all users and all purposes, including non-Wikimedia use, commercial use, and derivative works. (Some media may be subject to restrictions other than copyright in some jurisdictions, but are still considered free work.)
There are many different licenses that allow these freedoms. The licensing page on the Wikimedia Commons, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Licensing, discusses some of these license terms and gives links to the many licenses that are acceptable to use.
While we appreciate the goodwill of those who give special permissions for Wikimedia to display a work, this does not fulfill our greater purpose of giving others the freedom to use the content as well, and so we cannot accept media with permission for use on Wikimedia only. Derivative uses are also important. The value of allowing modifications becomes clear to anyone who edits the projects, as new work builds on the work of others, and work you cannot change to meet your needs and purposes is not free.
Commercial and non-commercial use is more controversial, as many people are concerned that allowing commercial uses allows others to abuse their generosity. But ultimately Wikimedia's longstanding and carefully considered position is, as with many other organizations devoted to free content, that disallowing commercial use does not provide significant benefit to the content creator or to the public. Non-commercial licensing stops many valuable uses that help distribute and support free works, and hence does not further our mission. Where commercial use spreads the works without taking away others' rights to use and distribute them for free, it helps our purpose of making the content as widely available as possible. This is a long enough message without going deeply into detail, but Erik Moeller's essay at http://www.intelligentdesigns.net/Licenses/NC is a thorough and clear explanation of the reasons why the harm is more than the benefit, and so why non-commercial content is not something we use.
It is for these reasons, which we have long supported, that all media on Wikimedia sites which are used under terms that specify non-commercial use only, no-derivatives only, or permission for Wikimedia only, need to be be phased out and replaced with media that does not have these restrictions.
Some Wikimedia projects use media that is not free at all, under a doctrine of "fair use" or "fair dealing". There are some works, primarily historically important photographs and significant modern artworks, that we can not realistically expect to be released under a free content license, but that are hard to discuss in an educational context without including the media itself. Because the inability to include these works limits scholarship and criticism, in many jurisdictions people may use such works under limited conditions without having license or permission. Some works that are under licenses we do not accept (such as non-derivative) may meet these conditions. Because of our commitment to free content, this non-free media should not be used when it is reasonably possible to replace with free media that would serve the same educational purpose.
Since individual projects have differing community standards and there are potentially legal issues in different jurisdictions, individual projects may choose to be more restrictive than Foundation policy requires, such as the many projects that do not allow "fair use" media at all. However, no project may have content policies less restricive, or that allow licenses other than those allowed on Wikimedia Commons and limited fair use.
We hope this clears up some of the uncertainty about what types of material may be uploaded to and used on the projects as well as why we take this position.
Thanks to everyone for your input and hard work.
For the Wikimedia Foundation, Kat Walsh
The subject line alone cheered me up to no end. Huzzah, and thank you for that thoughtful and comprehensive message.
SJ
This is a great mail to receive, thanks for your work, Kat.
On 08/02/07, Kat Walsh kwalsh@wikimedia.org wrote:
Since individual projects have differing community standards and there are potentially legal issues in different jurisdictions, individual projects may choose to be more restrictive than Foundation policy requires, such as the many projects that do not allow "fair use" media at all. However, no project may have content policies less restricive, or that allow licenses other than those allowed on Wikimedia Commons and limited fair use.
There have been some recent deletion debates on Common, primarily concerning "country-specific" PD tags, which might require further comment on this point. (see below)
Also, the wording here implies that "Foundation policy" can be equated with "licenses allowed on Wikimedia Commons". One one hand, the WMF is unlikely to want to start handing out an explicit list of acceptable licenses, so that is understandable. But on the other it means that the nuances of Foundation policy are being decided on one wiki and having conseuqences for all wikis. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the first time this happens, I think. If this is correct, will the WMF be supplying some legal assistance from time to time for Commons? (such as the cases that follow)
Note: these debates were unsurprisingly quite heated, but they are closed for now, and I would appreciate it if we could avoid re-hashing the debate here.
1. First case is PD-Italy, which was deleted. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-Italy http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Template:PD-Ital...
I believe that IT.wp chose to upload many of the Commons PD-Italy images locally. Please see the wording on their template: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-Italia
At the time I think we all thought this was an OK solution, since the laws are not easy to interpret, and each project (Commons and IT.wp) was just making the best interpretation they could.
Given your above statement, is this in fact acceptable or not?
2. Another big case was PD-Soviet. (it now RDRs to {{copyvio}}) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Template:PD-Sovi...
Lots and lots of discussion about this one: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:PD-Soviet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:PD-USSR
It appears to me that RU.wp chose to follow the Commons' solution and depreciate the template, rather than upload files locally. See http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD:PD-Soviet (PD-old and PD-Russia are both accepted on Commons) I am not sure if other Wikipedias depreciated the template or uploaded locally.
3. German logos. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Logo-Germany DE.wp has a lot of logos tagged as "PD-ineligible" which American or British readers would be baffled to believe. (Probably other jurisdictions too. These are only two that I know for sure, do not treat logos in the German way.) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Template:Logo-Ge...
Trademarks have always been a very hairy case for Commons. We choose to follow a stricter interpretation than DE.wp, but I think it is a big enough wiki with enough sensible people that their interpretation is probably correct for Germany. So they are being "less restrictive" than Commons, but is that OK or not?
regards, Brianna user:pfctdayelise
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 03:57, Kat Walsh ha scritto:
Greetings! A formal declaration in the form of a Board resolution has not yet been made and will be forthcoming; however, we hope that this longer message will provide the explanation behind the resolution. The resolution will seek to clarify something that has been true for some time but may not have been stated in a clear enough form as guidance for the various communities to follow. [CUT] Since individual projects have differing community standards and there are potentially legal issues in different jurisdictions, individual projects may choose to be more restrictive than Foundation policy requires, such as the many projects that do not allow "fair use" media at all. However, no project may have content policies less restricive, or that allow licenses other than those allowed on Wikimedia Commons and limited fair use.
Nice. As far as I've understood, Board decided so:
"With permission? Not admitted. Fair use? Ehr... it could be... maybe... it depends... Oh, ok, admitted."
Maybe I've understood wrong? Cause if you say that media with permission "need to be phased out" (with no expection) and fair use media *should* not be used... It seems so.
And I'm sorry to say that again: the italian community is the only one to be affected by this decision, 'cause nothing will change for en.wiki. Here again, Foundation is en.centric...
Nice and very fair, again. I'll inform my community.
Claudio / Gatto Nero
Claudio Mastroianni wrote:
Nice. As far as I've understood, Board decided so:
"With permission? Not admitted. Fair use? Ehr... it could be... maybe... it depends... Oh, ok, admitted."
Maybe I've understood wrong? Cause if you say that media with permission "need to be phased out" (with no expection) and fair use media *should* not be used... It seems so.
And I'm sorry to say that again: the italian community is the only one to be affected by this decision, 'cause nothing will change for en.wiki. Here again, Foundation is en.centric...
Not at all. Limited fair use is available for all projects. If the Italian projects choose not to have fair use that is entirely their choice. Nobody in any en preject is telling you that you can or can't have fair use.
Ec
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 11:36, Ray Saintonge ha scritto:
Not at all. Limited fair use is available for all projects. If the Italian projects choose not to have fair use that is entirely their choice. Nobody in any en preject is telling you that you can or can't have fair use.
Ec
Again: fair use is *illegal* in a lot of different countries, Italy included. It's not "our choice", it's just wa can't.
Gatto Nero
Claudio Mastroianni wrote:
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 11:36, Ray Saintonge ha scritto:
Not at all. Limited fair use is available for all projects. If the Italian projects choose not to have fair use that is entirely their choice. Nobody in any en preject is telling you that you can or can't have fair use.
Ec
Again: fair use is *illegal* in a lot of different countries, Italy included. It's not "our choice", it's just wa can't.
So you can't quote anybody??
Italy is signatory to the Berne Convention, and that allows fair practice.
Ec
Claudio Mastroianni wrote:
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 11:36, Ray Saintonge ha scritto:
Not at all. Limited fair use is available for all projects. If the Italian projects choose not to have fair use that is entirely their choice. Nobody in any en preject is telling you that you can or can't have fair use.
Again: fair use is *illegal* in a lot of different countries, Italy included. It's not "our choice", it's just wa can't.
It would not be illegal for a person living in a country that allows fair use to upload such material to the Italian language Wikipedia. Families of Italian emigrants (of which there are many in North America) who retain their love of the language would be completely within their legal rights to do so. If they are not now allowed to do so it is because of your rules, and not because of Italian law.
Ec
On 2/8/07, Claudio Mastroianni gattonero@gmail.com wrote:
And I'm sorry to say that again: the italian community is the only one to be affected by this decision, 'cause nothing will change for en.wiki.
We still have a few hundread wikipedia only images to clear out.
Here again, Foundation is en.centric...
Nice and very fair, again. I'll inform my community.
Claudio / Gatto Nero
Following def-acto practice. Wikipedias can be as unfre as en bu no more unfree.
On 2/8/07, Claudio Mastroianni gattonero@gmail.com wrote:
Nice. As far as I've understood, Board decided so:
"With permission? Not admitted. Fair use? Ehr... it could be... maybe... it depends... Oh, ok, admitted."
Maybe I've understood wrong? Cause if you say that media with permission "need to be phased out" (with no expection) and fair use media *should* not be used... It seems so.
And I'm sorry to say that again: the italian community is the only one to be affected by this decision, 'cause nothing will change for en.wiki. Here again, Foundation is en.centric...
Nice and very fair, again. I'll inform my community.
Claudio / Gatto Nero
While this is a position you have held before and I don't think I will be able to convince you otherwise, I'd like to clarify that this is absolutely not the case.
1) This is as much to clear it up for en: as any of the number of other communities we've become aware of over the past several months that had a different idea of what is and is not allowed. (You may be interested to know that much of enwiki is upset also!)
2) You are welcome to use fair use if your community decides based on legal and editorial considerations to allow it. I do not know the laws of Italy, so I cannot say; surely someone who does know them better can.
(Unfortunately if it is not the case that you can use it, it is the laws of Italy and not the policy of WMF that you should be taking issue with. It seems that it may not be so strictly against it as you are thinking, but I will leave this to others who are more knowledgeable about them.)
-Kat
2007/2/8, Kat Walsh kwalsh@wikimedia.org:
The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to develop educational content under a free content license or in the public domain. For content to be "free content", it must have no significant legal restriction on people's freedom to use, redistribute, or modify the content for any purpose.
There's been some discussion about this phrase on the Dutch IRC channel. In general, I did not agree. In my opinion, free content is the mission, free licenses and public domain are the means, not the goal itself.
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 15:40, Andre Engels ha scritto:
There's been some discussion about this phrase on the Dutch IRC channel.
There are a lot of discussion on #wikipedia-it, #wikimedia, and the bar of wikipedia. The *totality* of italian people I've read of, for now, totally disagree with the decision of WMF.
Gatto Nero
On 2/9/07, Claudio Mastroianni gattonero@gmail.com wrote:
The *totality* of italian people I've read of, for now, totally disagree with the decision of WMF.
Message received, and received, and received.
Please wait until the actual resolution arrives before telling us again how everyone in Italy feels.
On 2/8/07, Claudio Mastroianni gattonero@gmail.com wrote:
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 15:40, Andre Engels ha scritto:
There's been some discussion about this phrase on the Dutch IRC channel.
There are a lot of discussion on #wikipedia-it, #wikimedia, and the bar of wikipedia. The *totality* of italian people I've read of, for now, totally disagree with the decision of WMF.
but is this only because you have misrepresented it to them?
I'd like to understand how you came to represent all of itwiki.
With your loud and abrasive style, you do not appear to be someone I would have selected to represent me.
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 17:56, Gregory Maxwell ha scritto:
but is this only because you have misrepresented it to them?
I'd like to understand how you came to represent all of itwiki.
With your loud and abrasive style, you do not appear to be someone I would have selected to represent me.
Sorry. I've just reposted the *whole* email of Kat, and made two statement. Everyone has been able to read it in his wholeness (even in a translated form *not made by me*), and to make their opinion.
Gatto Nero
On 2/8/07, Claudio Mastroianni gattonero@gmail.com wrote:
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 17:56, Gregory Maxwell ha scritto:
but is this only because you have misrepresented it to them?
I'd like to understand how you came to represent all of itwiki.
With your loud and abrasive style, you do not appear to be someone I would have selected to represent me.
Sorry. I've just reposted the *whole* email of Kat, and made two statement. Everyone has been able to read it in his wholeness (even in a translated form *not made by me*), and to make their opinion.
Gatto Nero
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I'll try to reword Gregory's argument since I think it's still not clear to you (and for what I see, most it: people).
1. On italy, you're allowed to publish with permission but not under fair use. 2. So you can upload if you get permission 3. Once the file has been uploaded in italy with permission, USA people can access it 4. Should the cirterion met, USA people can reuse the content under fair use (since there, fair use applies no matter what the licencing terms are (permission or not))
therefore he's suggesting you to tag your images with the text * This image has been published in Italy with permission (not under nonexistent "italy fair use") * This image *could* be used on some other countries as fair use where those countries law allow it
Am I right greg? Did I explain it correctly?
Il giorno 08/feb/07, alle ore 21:23, Pedro Sanchez ha scritto:
I'll try to reword Gregory's argument since I think it's still not clear to you (and for what I see, most it: people).
- On italy, you're allowed to publish with permission but not
under fair use. 2. So you can upload if you get permission 3. Once the file has been uploaded in italy with permission, USA people can access it 4. Should the cirterion met, USA people can reuse the content under fair use (since there, fair use applies no matter what the licencing terms are (permission or not))
Ok, that's received. BUT the permission grants use *only* under certain condition. More specifically, quite *all* the permission say "You can use it, but ONLY on it.wikipedia". This is our permission, and this is our deal.
therefore he's suggesting you to tag your images with the text
- This image has been published in Italy with permission (not under
nonexistent "italy fair use")
- This image *could* be used on some other countries as fair use where
those countries law allow it
Saying this, I'm "inviting" other people to use it *outside* it.wikipedia. This goes against our deal and our permission. It's like when I have a gun and I leave it on a seat in the park: if anyone use it, I'm legally in trouble.
(By the way: is it etical doing what are you saying? It's a dirty trick)
Am I right greg? Did I explain it correctly?
You've not said the phrase "You're paranoid", that could be a problem.
Gatto Nero
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 at 21:57 +0000, Kat Walsh wrote:
Greetings!
Hi Kat,
[snip]
The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to develop educational content under a free content license or in the public domain. For content to be "free content", it must have no significant legal restriction on people's freedom to use, redistribute, or modify the content for any purpose.
[snip]
It is therefore vital that all projects under the Foundation umbrella use these standards, not only because of our desire to enable the creation of free reference works, but also because of our commitment to allow those works to benefit everyone who wishes to use and reuse them. Because of this, all media we allow on our projects must be free for all users and all purposes, including non-Wikimedia use, commercial use, and derivative works. (Some media may be subject to restrictions other than copyright in some jurisdictions, but are still considered free work.)
I don't get the figure. The Foundation mission statement is "to develop educational content" but the board is saying "than all media [...] must be free for all users and *all purposes*". This disallow all license type "for educational purpose" whilst giving at a first glance no advantage.
I and many people agree for a license allowing commercial/non commercial use and derivative works which fulfill the mission statement but the actual license requirement go far ahead from that.
Some Wikimedia projects use media that is not free at all, under a doctrine of "fair use" or "fair dealing". There are some works, primarily historically important photographs and significant modern artworks, that we can not realistically expect to be released under a free content license, but that are hard to discuss in an educational context without including the media itself. Because the inability to include these works limits scholarship and criticism, in many jurisdictions people may use such works under limited conditions without having license or permission. Some works that are under licenses we do not accept (such as non-derivative) may meet these conditions. Because of our commitment to free content, this non-free media should not be used when it is reasonably possible to replace with free media that would serve the same educational purpose.
So it's agreed than "fair use is not free at all" but it's acceptable whilst a license for educational purpose allowing derivative works and commercial use isn't. That look like weird.
Is there any chance I could get some input on the issues I raised? Or does it take 200 messages to get Board attention? :P
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-February/027549.html
Re: Kat's statement that "[N]o project may have content policies less restricive, or that allow licenses other than those allowed on Wikimedia Commons[...]"
*in interpreting country-specific "public domain" laws, Commons has on occasion chosen to interpret the laws in a more restrictive way than local projects. In such cases, the local project sometimes chooses to keep their less restrictive interpretation and transfer the images from Commons to that project. (Specific example: IT.wp and {{PD-Italy}}) * German logos - DE.wp regards the threshold of originality for copyright to apply as much higher than Commons and EN.wp in general, meaning that many logos Commons deletes as "copyrighted", DE.wp keeps as "PD-ineligible, although trademarked"
Also, the wording in Kat's statement implies that "Foundation policy" can be equated with "licenses allowed on Wikimedia Commons". One one hand, the WMF is unlikely to want to start handing out an explicit list of acceptable licenses, so that is understandable. But on the other it means that the nuances of Foundation policy are being decided on one wiki and having conseuqences for all wikis. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the first time this happens, I think. If this is correct, will the WMF be supplying some legal assistance from time to time for Commons? Or - ?
cheers Brianna
On 2/10/07, Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com wrote:
*in interpreting country-specific "public domain" laws, Commons has on occasion chosen to interpret the laws in a more restrictive way than local projects. In such cases, the local project sometimes chooses to keep their less restrictive interpretation and transfer the images from Commons to that project. (Specific example: IT.wp and {{PD-Italy}})
- German logos - DE.wp regards the threshold of originality for
copyright to apply as much higher than Commons and EN.wp in general, meaning that many logos Commons deletes as "copyrighted", DE.wp keeps as "PD-ineligible, although trademarked"
In my opinion, those media should be deleted OR migrated to an exemption doctrine (fair use or similar), and would have to be, under the draft resolution as it is currently worded.
Also, the wording in Kat's statement implies that "Foundation policy" can be equated with "licenses allowed on Wikimedia Commons".
The current draft resolution makes reference to the "Definition of Free Cultural Works" for the purpose of identifying free licenses: http://freedomdefined.org/Definition
This would help to separate the process from any specific Wikimedia project.
On 10/02/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote:
Also, the wording in Kat's statement implies that "Foundation policy" can be equated with "licenses allowed on Wikimedia Commons".
The current draft resolution makes reference to the "Definition of Free Cultural Works" for the purpose of identifying free licenses: http://freedomdefined.org/Definition
This would help to separate the process from any specific Wikimedia project.
which was basically written by you... so this becomes 'ask Erik's interpretation' :)
This line: No other restrictions or limitations: The work itself must not be covered by legal restrictions (patents, contracts, etc.) or limitations (such as privacy rights) which would impede the freedoms enumerated above.
makes me think we would have to delete all trademarks, and all national/state symbols, and things like the Red Cross symbols ( http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Red_cross ) , because they are covered by "legal restrictions or limitations" that don't allow them to be used to misrepresent the thing they stand for. Correct interpretation or not? Is this what WMF truly intends?
cheers Brianna
On 2/10/07, Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com wrote:
which was basically written by you... so this becomes 'ask Erik's interpretation' :)
The main text was co-authored by Benjamin Mako Hill. You have no idea how many emails and conversations with Richard Stallman and Lawrence Lessig were required to get to the point where we are now. The definition was also reviewed and improved with the feedback of the moderator team, which includes Angela Beesley, Mia Garlick from Creative Commons, and Elizabeth Stark from freeculture.org.
This line: No other restrictions or limitations: The work itself must not be covered by legal restrictions (patents, contracts, etc.) or limitations (such as privacy rights) which would impede the freedoms enumerated above.
Note that this is the section referring to free _works_. The draft resolution makes reference only to the section about free _licenses_, and makes no comment about free works.
Erik Moeller wrote:
On 2/10/07, Brianna Laugher wrote:
On 10/02/07, Erik Moeller wrote:
The current draft resolution makes reference to the "Definition of Free Cultural Works" for the purpose of identifying free licenses: http://freedomdefined.org/Definition
This would help to separate the process from any specific Wikimedia project.
which was basically written by you... so this becomes 'ask Erik's interpretation' :)
The main text was co-authored by Benjamin Mako Hill. You have no idea how many emails and conversations with Richard Stallman and Lawrence Lessig were required to get to the point where we are now. The definition was also reviewed and improved with the feedback of the moderator team, which includes Angela Beesley, Mia Garlick from Creative Commons, and Elizabeth Stark from freeculture.org.
Hey guys,
There's been a lot of info to digest over the past couple of days, but one thing I've always wondered about is the definition of 'freedom' being used by Erik and others. I just looked at Benjamin's blog entry here:-
http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/ip/20070104-00
and noted these words: "... A free culture is not a culture without property; it is not a culture in which artists don't get paid. A culture without property, or in which creators can't get paid is anarchy, not freedom. ..." quoted seemingly with approval, which strike me as displaying an attitude of which the Adam Smith Institute - http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/ - would heartily approve. Not that there's anything necessarily right or wrong with that, or Lawrence Lessig's characterization of 'anarchy'... it's just that we need to look very carefully at the assumptions being made in the terminology employed, so we know where the conclusions come from. just my 2 cents. Take care - luke
luke brandt wrote:
Hey guys,
There's been a lot of info to digest over the past couple of days, but one thing I've always wondered about is the definition of 'freedom' being used by Erik and others. I just looked at Benjamin's blog entry here:-
http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/ip/20070104-00
and noted these words: "... A free culture is not a culture without property; it is not a culture in which artists don't get paid. A culture without property, or in which creators can't get paid is anarchy, not freedom. ..." quoted seemingly with approval, which strike me as displaying an attitude of which the Adam Smith Institute - http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/ - would heartily approve. Not that there's anything necessarily right or wrong with that, or Lawrence Lessig's characterization of 'anarchy'... it's just that we need to look very carefully at the assumptions being made in the terminology employed, so we know where the conclusions come from. just my 2 cents. Take care - luke
The first clause in the quotation is remarkable for its ambiguity. My first inclination was to read this as indicating that property is essential to the definition of culture, or that a society that does not believe in capital does not have a culture. A more acceptable interpretation is that a culture does not exclude the existence of property. In other words
A free culture is not a culture - without property
A free culture is not - a culture without property
Having artists be paid is acceptable in both circumstances. In accounting terms, property is an asset on the balance sheet; getting paid belongs in the revenue portion of the financial statements.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
The first clause in the quotation is remarkable for its ambiguity. My first inclination was to read this as indicating that property is essential to the definition of culture, or that a society that does not believe in capital does not have a culture. A more acceptable interpretation is that a culture does not exclude the existence of property. In other words
A free culture is not a culture - without property
A free culture is not - a culture without property
Having artists be paid is acceptable in both circumstances. In accounting terms, property is an asset on the balance sheet; getting paid belongs in the revenue portion of the financial statements.
Ec
Hi, and thanks for your thoughts. In clarifying the quote how do you think you should take into account the second sentence - seemingly the counterpoint and twin of the first in the quotation, which is in essence: "A culture without property ... is anarchy, not freedom." - luke
luke brandt wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
The first clause in the quotation is remarkable for its ambiguity. My first inclination was to read this as indicating that property is essential to the definition of culture, or that a society that does not believe in capital does not have a culture. A more acceptable interpretation is that a culture does not exclude the existence of property. In other words
A free culture is not a culture - without property
A free culture is not - a culture without property
Having artists be paid is acceptable in both circumstances. In accounting terms, property is an asset on the balance sheet; getting paid belongs in the revenue portion of the financial statements.
Hi, and thanks for your thoughts. In clarifying the quote how do you think you should take into account the second sentence - seemingly the counterpoint and twin of the first in the quotation, which is in essence: "A culture without property ... is anarchy, not freedom." - luke
One really needs to look at that second sentence in its entirety: "A culture without property, or in which creators can't get paid is anarchy, not freedom. ..."
Does payment imply property? Is that second premise an explanation or an alternative. If I really wanted to emphasize grammatically fine points I would suggest that in order to be an explanation a comma would be required after "paid". I hesitate to cast this into the areana of capitalist (property) versus Marxist (payment) dialectic. There is a certain idealist thread in Marxism that forsees an anarchic workers' paradise; some doctrinnaire views of libertarianism might get us there too. That aside, I can see neither the capitalists nor the Marxists promoting anarchy. Wikinomics is in its infancy, and in that context it is perfectly understandable that Lessig would use the jargon of the society around him.
There are a lot of grammatically negative words in the Lessig quote, and I wonder if he would have done better to express things in more positive terms. Even "free" has a basis in an absence.
One of the consequences of living in a paradigm shift is the destruction of presumptions. That curse of interesting times escapes its box, and makes itself felt where it was not expected.
The fact is that there are a lot of people providing a lot of intellectual effort for nothing other than the personal satisfaction of doing a good job. They need to put food on the table as much as anybody else. There is a profound disconnect between work and compensation for that work. The marketting and manufacturing structures that supported the enterprises that have heretofore been highly profitable are no longer needed, casting aside an army of Willy Lomans.
Most of us who have an interest in Wikipedia and this mailing list also have an interest in free access to knowledge. We are highly critical of the notion of intellectual property, particularly copyright. Property, as we traditionally define, it generates revenue solely on the basis of its own existence. Is that the kind of property that Lessig considers to be the antidote to anarchy. In summary I agree with him in relation to creators being paid, but have serious reservations in relation to property.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
luke brandt wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
The first clause in the quotation is remarkable for its ambiguity. My first inclination was to read this as indicating that property is essential to the definition of culture, or that a society that does not believe in capital does not have a culture. A more acceptable interpretation is that a culture does not exclude the existence of property. In other words
A free culture is not a culture - without property
A free culture is not - a culture without property
Having artists be paid is acceptable in both circumstances. In accounting terms, property is an asset on the balance sheet; getting paid belongs in the revenue portion of the financial statements.
Hi, and thanks for your thoughts. In clarifying the quote how do you think you should take into account the second sentence - seemingly the counterpoint and twin of the first in the quotation, which is in essence: "A culture without property ... is anarchy, not freedom." - luke
One really needs to look at that second sentence in its entirety: "A culture without property, or in which creators can't get paid is anarchy, not freedom. ..."
Does payment imply property? Is that second premise an explanation or an alternative. If I really wanted to emphasize grammatically fine points I would suggest that in order to be an explanation a comma would be required after "paid". I hesitate to cast this into the areana of capitalist (property) versus Marxist (payment) dialectic. There is a certain idealist thread in Marxism that forsees an anarchic workers' paradise; some doctrinnaire views of libertarianism might get us there too. That aside, I can see neither the capitalists nor the Marxists promoting anarchy. Wikinomics is in its infancy, and in that context it is perfectly understandable that Lessig would use the jargon of the society around him.
There are a lot of grammatically negative words in the Lessig quote, and I wonder if he would have done better to express things in more positive terms. Even "free" has a basis in an absence.
One of the consequences of living in a paradigm shift is the destruction of presumptions. That curse of interesting times escapes its box, and makes itself felt where it was not expected.
The fact is that there are a lot of people providing a lot of intellectual effort for nothing other than the personal satisfaction of doing a good job. They need to put food on the table as much as anybody else. There is a profound disconnect between work and compensation for that work. The marketting and manufacturing structures that supported the enterprises that have heretofore been highly profitable are no longer needed, casting aside an army of Willy Lomans.
Most of us who have an interest in Wikipedia and this mailing list also have an interest in free access to knowledge. We are highly critical of the notion of intellectual property, particularly copyright. Property, as we traditionally define, it generates revenue solely on the basis of its own existence. Is that the kind of property that Lessig considers to be the antidote to anarchy. In summary I agree with him in relation to creators being paid, but have serious reservations in relation to property.
Ec
Once again, thanks. For myself, I don't see the absence of that comma being significant except stylistically. Lessig seems to have quite deliberately positioned himself four-square in the 'Adam Smith camp' if it may so be described. Doing so entails consequences for the particular 'freedom' paradigm that the movement espouses, doesn't it? - eg perhaps our attitude on NC ... that's just one small reason why Lessig's axioms need examining carefully, in my thinking on this, just as you did :) Maybe there are other views. Take care - luke
luke brandt wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
luke brandt wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
The first clause in the quotation is remarkable for its ambiguity. My first inclination was to read this as indicating that property is essential to the definition of culture, or that a society that does not believe in capital does not have a culture. A more acceptable interpretation is that a culture does not exclude the existence of property. In other words
A free culture is not a culture - without property
A free culture is not - a culture without property
Having artists be paid is acceptable in both circumstances. In accounting terms, property is an asset on the balance sheet; getting paid belongs in the revenue portion of the financial statements.
Hi, and thanks for your thoughts. In clarifying the quote how do you think you should take into account the second sentence - seemingly the counterpoint and twin of the first in the quotation, which is in essence: "A culture without property ... is anarchy, not freedom." - luke
One really needs to look at that second sentence in its entirety: "A culture without property, or in which creators can't get paid is anarchy, not freedom. ..."
Does payment imply property? Is that second premise an explanation or an alternative. If I really wanted to emphasize grammatically fine points I would suggest that in order to be an explanation a comma would be required after "paid". I hesitate to cast this into the areana of capitalist (property) versus Marxist (payment) dialectic. There is a certain idealist thread in Marxism that forsees an anarchic workers' paradise; some doctrinnaire views of libertarianism might get us there too. That aside, I can see neither the capitalists nor the Marxists promoting anarchy. Wikinomics is in its infancy, and in that context it is perfectly understandable that Lessig would use the jargon of the society around him.
There are a lot of grammatically negative words in the Lessig quote, and I wonder if he would have done better to express things in more positive terms. Even "free" has a basis in an absence.
One of the consequences of living in a paradigm shift is the destruction of presumptions. That curse of interesting times escapes its box, and makes itself felt where it was not expected.
The fact is that there are a lot of people providing a lot of intellectual effort for nothing other than the personal satisfaction of doing a good job. They need to put food on the table as much as anybody else. There is a profound disconnect between work and compensation for that work. The marketting and manufacturing structures that supported the enterprises that have heretofore been highly profitable are no longer needed, casting aside an army of Willy Lomans.
Most of us who have an interest in Wikipedia and this mailing list also have an interest in free access to knowledge. We are highly critical of the notion of intellectual property, particularly copyright. Property, as we traditionally define, it generates revenue solely on the basis of its own existence. Is that the kind of property that Lessig considers to be the antidote to anarchy. In summary I agree with him in relation to creators being paid, but have serious reservations in relation to property.
Ec
Once again, thanks. For myself, I don't see the absence of that comma being significant except stylistically. Lessig seems to have quite deliberately positioned himself four-square in the 'Adam Smith camp' if it may so be described. Doing so entails consequences for the particular 'freedom' paradigm that the movement espouses, doesn't it? - eg perhaps our attitude on NC ... that's just one small reason why Lessig's axioms need examining carefully, in my thinking on this, just as you did :) Maybe there are other views. Take care - luke
I would hate for the entire philosophy of open access to be reduced to an argument about old economic philosophies. Whether you believe that Adam Smith or Karl Marx was right about some detail, you have to make the point without mentioning the name, especially Marx's. In the midst of a true paradigm shift, as for Ivan Karamazov, everything is permitted. Adam Smith economics are deeply engrained in American establishment thought; it's a lot more safe than the rebellious uncertainties that Jefferson supported.
Ec
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