I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
"Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO."
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been wrong before.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: billinghurst billinghurstwiki@gmail.com Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM Subject: Shared list To: ahcoleecu@gmail.com
Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO.
- b
Anthony, two points:
1. Billinghurst is a very long-serving community member, and has always in my experience been happy to talk things through. I'd urge you just to talk with him directly.
2. Tension is high right now. If we're irritating each other more than usual, keep that in mind...it may be a factor.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
"Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO."
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been wrong before.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: billinghurst billinghurstwiki@gmail.com Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM Subject: Shared list To: ahcoleecu@gmail.com
Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO.
- b
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May I add that it is usually considered somewhat distasteful to direct private emails to a public list, without the explicit permission of the original author?
Oliver's point is also salient; while obviously we need to be clear about what we say, organisational matters don't take place in a vacuum. The way we pitch our criticism affects real people with real emotions. We should take care with what we say so that no unnecessary distress is caused.
Cheers, Craig
On 23 February 2016 at 15:26, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
Anthony, two points:
- Billinghurst is a very long-serving community member, and has always in
my experience been happy to talk things through. I'd urge you just to talk with him directly.
- Tension is high right now. If we're irritating each other more than
usual, keep that in mind...it may be a factor.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
"Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO."
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on
here. I
thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've
been
wrong before.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: billinghurst billinghurstwiki@gmail.com Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM Subject: Shared list To: ahcoleecu@gmail.com
Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO.
- b
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Hoi, You are not the only one who is told that dissent is not appreciated. It is ironic that when openness and shared values are considered, these same values are swept under the rug when people are not in line with "common" thought.
Apparently thoughts are not so common and certainly not universally shared. When community degenerates in universal enforced thought, are we still a community? Thanks, GerardM
On 23 February 2016 at 06:13, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
"Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO."
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been wrong before.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: billinghurst billinghurstwiki@gmail.com Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM Subject: Shared list To: ahcoleecu@gmail.com
Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO.
- b
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On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 6:31 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
You are not the only one who is told that dissent is not appreciated. It is ironic that when openness and shared values are considered, these same values are swept under the rug when people are not in line with "common" thought.
Apparently thoughts are not so common and certainly not universally shared. When community degenerates in universal enforced thought, are we still a community?
Gerard, you're only one, to my knowledge, always fulfilling the soft quota of 30 emails per month, +1 or 2 message. In February you're already at 31 [1].
Openness and shared values, IMHO, should include also "empathy": which means care, attention, proactive listening to others. It means say something when you need to and carefully craft the message for others to understand. This both keeps a good signal/noise ratio and also it's good for a multicultural, diverse community as we are. It also means leaving others the space (in this case, silence) to express themselves. I personally don't have problems with your opinions, just with the tone and frequency of those.
Again, IMHO, the assumption that fierce, logic but aggressive debate is welcome at anytime and anywhere is probably the biggest fallacy in the whole Wikimedia movement (just because we're white nerdy males, and we just roll like that).
Sorry all for the OT.
Aubrey
[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/author.html
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Andrea Zanni zanni.andrea84@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 6:31 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
You are not the only one who is told that dissent is not appreciated. It is ironic that when openness and shared values are considered, these same values are swept under the rug when people are not in line with "common" thought.
Apparently thoughts are not so common and certainly not universally shared. When community degenerates in universal enforced thought, are we still a community?
Gerard, you're only one, to my knowledge, always fulfilling the soft quota of 30 emails per month, +1 or 2 message. In February you're already at 31 [1].
For the record, Gerard absolutely understands the 30-post limit, is always very careful to keep it +/- 2 messages, and yes, I could still see a little more restraint on his part. We do have a sort of detente, and yes, he's already been warned privately this month.
This said, he does contribute positively to the list, and I even consider him a friend. But even friends need a little nudging from time to time, it's true.
Austin
If I might provide at least my, minor, perspective: there is a big difference between "perspective" and "dissent" and some of your communiques.
People, particularly at the Foundation, are hurting a lot right now. And the tone of your messages has been a lot of: justifying actual people being in actual pain and misery. "Lila is making great changes!" "yes, but people are so hurt by the way it's been going on they're going on _MEDICAL LEAVE_" "Oh yes but I support her continuing work!"
"sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
"Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO."
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been wrong before.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: billinghurst billinghurstwiki@gmail.com Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM Subject: Shared list To: ahcoleecu@gmail.com
Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO.
- b
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I am totally with Benjamin on this.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016, Oliver Keyes ironholds@gmail.com wrote:
"sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.
That is an odd way to dismiss any counter-argument - it is going to piss you or others off? You are the only staff member so far objecting to any dissenting view, existentially. I'm sure you would prefer no dissent should exist at all because you are having a miserable time, just 100 people piling on one?
I see the conversation heavily leaning in one direction - against Lila. She is overwhelmingly being blamed, accused and rebutted by just about every member on this list - in unofficial and official channels. This includes the staff, community members and even past board members. Anything short of calling her literally the worst or comparison her to lady hitler will not be moving things any further than they are.
A few staff members like Brion, expressed dissent to Lila's assertion, but wonderfully well. They offered counter-arguments, and provided context we all needed. Dissent is necessary, it moves the conversation along. You are in essence doing what your senior management was accused of, silencing criticism internally because you are having a rough time. I'm sure it doesn't feel nice.
Regards Theo
PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the list.
Theo wrote: "PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the list."
Yep. It won't happen again. It was an over-reaction to exactly what you're calling out in your post: people having the temerity to tell others to shut up, based mainly on their discomfort with the view being put. I despise it on Wikipedia - where it happens a very great deal, and I'm disappointed to see it happening here - especially in secret emails. When I pressed "send" I was thinking billinghurst didn't deserve the courtesy of that convention, if that's how he uses it. I was wrong.
(Sorry about calling the board names in my last post. Habit. I'll reign it in, a bit.)
Anthony Cole
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
I am totally with Benjamin on this.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016, Oliver Keyes ironholds@gmail.com wrote:
"sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.
That is an odd way to dismiss any counter-argument - it is going to piss you or others off? You are the only staff member so far objecting to any dissenting view, existentially. I'm sure you would prefer no dissent should exist at all because you are having a miserable time, just 100 people piling on one?
I see the conversation heavily leaning in one direction - against Lila. She is overwhelmingly being blamed, accused and rebutted by just about every member on this list - in unofficial and official channels. This includes the staff, community members and even past board members. Anything short of calling her literally the worst or comparison her to lady hitler will not be moving things any further than they are.
A few staff members like Brion, expressed dissent to Lila's assertion, but wonderfully well. They offered counter-arguments, and provided context we all needed. Dissent is necessary, it moves the conversation along. You are in essence doing what your senior management was accused of, silencing criticism internally because you are having a rough time. I'm sure it doesn't feel nice.
Regards Theo
PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the list. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:54 AM, Theo10011 de10011@gmail.com wrote:
I am totally with Benjamin on this.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016, Oliver Keyes ironholds@gmail.com wrote:
"sorely under-represented perspective" or not, that kind of attitude is of course going to piss people off. And it may be that denying the value of peoples' experiences or dismissing their misery is not, in fact, what you mean to be communicating. But it is how it's coming out. For me, at least, that's why I find your emails frustrating.
That is an odd way to dismiss any counter-argument - it is going to piss you or others off? You are the only staff member so far objecting to any dissenting view, existentially. I'm sure you would prefer no dissent should exist at all because you are having a miserable time, just 100 people piling on one?
I see the conversation heavily leaning in one direction - against Lila. She is overwhelmingly being blamed, accused and rebutted by just about every member on this list - in unofficial and official channels. This includes the staff, community members and even past board members. Anything short of calling her literally the worst or comparison her to lady hitler will not be moving things any further than they are.
A few staff members like Brion, expressed dissent to Lila's assertion, but wonderfully well. They offered counter-arguments, and provided context we all needed. Dissent is necessary, it moves the conversation along. You are in essence doing what your senior management was accused of, silencing criticism internally because you are having a rough time. I'm sure it doesn't feel nice.
Well, no. They're entirely different things. I'm happy to turn that into a longer discussion if you're genuinely interested in what I see as the difference, but I appreciate that may not be the case.
Regards Theo
PS Anthony, you shouldn't have sent a private email to the list. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Someone complained to you off-list about the amount you're posting to the list. You immediately forwarded his email to the list. Is this the best approach?
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here.
Well, Oliver Keyes said, 3 days ago:
Speaking as both a volunteer and staff, Anthony, I have found your attitude in this conversation and others on the subject to be deeply unproductive. It would be good if you spent more time asking questions and less time dismissing people's concerns.
For my part, I think it's inappropriate to, for example, take someone's statement: "I restrained from expressing publicly any issues I might have with your own performance; I would love you to not spread covert allegations on my performace and professional attitude" and proceed to "it is used as proof she's "literally Hitler"." My guidance would be to think carefully about the way you're responding to others and whether you would like to be responded to in that way.
I'm listening to this, and thank you all. I'll try to be less ... whatever that is I'm being. I do know what you mean, and I'll tone it down. Oliver, I had/have no intention of minimising the hurt felt by those involved. I apologise if I gave that impression. But some of those hurt people have been dishing out - en masse - a world of pain, themselves. I understand the dynamic at play here.
In my defence - though I know it's no justification - I'm deeply affronted by what's been happening here and, especially, on WW. I see its provenance - the almost inevitability of it, given a hands-off (read that as slow, ineffectual, irresponsible, mostly stupid and arrogant) board. But still, this has been just awful to watch, and the behaviour of some here and elsewhere has been truly, truly trashy.
I shall try to improve my game.
PS:
That's the first time I've ever made public a private email. Literally. Ever. I assume it will be the last. That kind of thing, bullying people into silence, quietly, off-list, is IMNSHO, poor behaviour, billinghurst.
Anthony Cole
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Benjamin Lees emufarmers@gmail.com wrote:
Someone complained to you off-list about the amount you're posting to the list. You immediately forwarded his email to the list. Is this the best approach?
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here.
Well, Oliver Keyes said, 3 days ago:
Speaking as both a volunteer and staff, Anthony, I have found your attitude in this conversation and others on the subject to be deeply unproductive. It would be good if you spent more time asking questions and less time dismissing people's concerns.
For my part, I think it's inappropriate to, for example, take someone's statement: "I restrained from expressing publicly any issues I might have with your own performance; I would love you to not spread covert allegations on my performace and professional attitude" and proceed to "it is used as proof she's "literally Hitler"." My guidance would be to think carefully about the way you're responding to others and whether you would like to be responded to in that way.
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Thanks Anthony; it's really appreciated. I want to make clear that I'm not saying "don't disagree!" - of course people can disagree. Hell, we're Wikipedians. Even if nobody was disagreeing we'd disagree with ourselves ;).
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 2:54 AM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I'm listening to this, and thank you all. I'll try to be less ... whatever that is I'm being. I do know what you mean, and I'll tone it down. Oliver, I had/have no intention of minimising the hurt felt by those involved. I apologise if I gave that impression. But some of those hurt people have been dishing out - en masse - a world of pain, themselves. I understand the dynamic at play here.
In my defence - though I know it's no justification - I'm deeply affronted by what's been happening here and, especially, on WW. I see its provenance
- the almost inevitability of it, given a hands-off (read that as slow,
ineffectual, irresponsible, mostly stupid and arrogant) board. But still, this has been just awful to watch, and the behaviour of some here and elsewhere has been truly, truly trashy.
I shall try to improve my game.
PS:
That's the first time I've ever made public a private email. Literally. Ever. I assume it will be the last. That kind of thing, bullying people into silence, quietly, off-list, is IMNSHO, poor behaviour, billinghurst.
Anthony Cole
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Benjamin Lees emufarmers@gmail.com wrote:
Someone complained to you off-list about the amount you're posting to the list. You immediately forwarded his email to the list. Is this the best approach?
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com wrote:
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here.
Well, Oliver Keyes said, 3 days ago:
Speaking as both a volunteer and staff, Anthony, I have found your attitude in this conversation and others on the subject to be deeply unproductive. It would be good if you spent more time asking questions and less time dismissing people's concerns.
For my part, I think it's inappropriate to, for example, take someone's statement: "I restrained from expressing publicly any issues I might have with your own performance; I would love you to not spread covert allegations on my performace and professional attitude" and proceed to "it is used as proof she's "literally Hitler"." My guidance would be to think carefully about the way you're responding to others and whether you would like to be responded to in that way.
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AFAIR Billinghurst's(*) email address is different.
Vito
(*)Billinghurst is one of the best, wisest and most committed Wikimedians I got in touch with.
2016-02-23 6:13 GMT+01:00 Anthony Cole ahcoleecu@gmail.com:
I've just received this from someone called billinghurst:
"Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO."
I thought I was bringing a sorely under-represented perspective to the ED discussion on this list and wasn't aware I'd said or done anything inappropriate here. I sincerely apologise if I have, but I'll need a bit more guidance if that's the case. I see a lot of rebutting going on here. I thought civil rebuttal was how rational argument progressed. But I've been wrong before.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: billinghurst billinghurstwiki@gmail.com Date: Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 4:04 AM Subject: Shared list To: ahcoleecu@gmail.com
Please stop this rebuttal of people's statements. Their opinions are as valuable, if not more valuable than yours as statements. Your name is appearing too often IMNSHO.
- b
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