Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_decrease_impersonation.*
This is to help address issues of impersonation of established Wikipedians by paid editors.
Further thoughts appreciated. Best
Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the involved organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
John Erling Blad /jeblad
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/ interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_ decrease_impersonation.*
This is to help address issues of impersonation of established Wikipedians by paid editors.
Further thoughts appreciated. Best
James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks accounts that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are already required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and this does not change that.
James
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the involved organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
John Erling Blad /jeblad
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/ interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_ decrease_impersonation.*
This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
Wikipedians
by paid editors.
Further thoughts appreciated. Best
James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an account on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had a discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.
How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky" on Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing paid editing should say so actually do so?
From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that
discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.
I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me to create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one, and why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not about Wikipedia-editing.)
I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their wikipedia pages. People ask for help because the failure of the wikipedia-communities to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not a good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help, then help them!
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks accounts that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are already required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and this does not change that.
James
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the involved organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
John Erling Blad /jeblad
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/ interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_ decrease_impersonation.*
This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
Wikipedians
by paid editors.
Further thoughts appreciated. Best
James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I am wanting to protect Wikipedians from being impersonated. I am also wanting to protect those on Upworks and other sites from hiring people who are community banned or editing in breach of policy but pretending they are legit. This proposal will help with both of those.
That people sometimes struggle to get help on Wikipedia, while unfortunate, is not the problem this proposal is working to address.
If you are using Upworks etc for offering services other than the editing of Wikipedia for pay this proposal does not affect you in anyway. If you are a disclosed paid editor, you already per the terms of use are required to state the intermediaries you are working through and thus you should already be doing this.
This proposal will actually help people find "white hat" paid editors who properly disclose.
James
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an account on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had a discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.
How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky" on Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing paid editing should say so actually do so?
From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.
I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me to create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one, and why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not about Wikipedia-editing.)
I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their wikipedia pages. People ask for help because the failure of the wikipedia-communities to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not a good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help, then help them!
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks
accounts
that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are already required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and this does not change that.
James
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage of identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the
involved
organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
John Erling Blad /jeblad
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com
wrote:
Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/ interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_ decrease_impersonation.*
This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
Wikipedians
by paid editors.
Further thoughts appreciated. Best
James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what you propose runs a serious legal risk.
I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be implemented.
John
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:01 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I am wanting to protect Wikipedians from being impersonated. I am also wanting to protect those on Upworks and other sites from hiring people who are community banned or editing in breach of policy but pretending they are legit. This proposal will help with both of those.
That people sometimes struggle to get help on Wikipedia, while unfortunate, is not the problem this proposal is working to address.
If you are using Upworks etc for offering services other than the editing of Wikipedia for pay this proposal does not affect you in anyway. If you are a disclosed paid editor, you already per the terms of use are required to state the intermediaries you are working through and thus you should already be doing this.
This proposal will actually help people find "white hat" paid editors who properly disclose.
James
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Okey, I may have (or perhaps not) edited a page. Perhaps I have an
account
on Upwork (or perhaps not). That page may have been edited because I had
a
discussion with someone at Upwork (or perhaps not). I could also been discussing editing the page at OTRS, but again, perhaps not.
How can you know that? Because I am "jeblad"? What if I am "honky donky"
on
Wikipedia? Do you really believe that because someone said people doing paid editing should say so actually do so?
From point b on your RfC "but yet there is no account on Wikipedia that discloses that account", how do you plan on figuring out which account on those two systems are the same? To identify the culprit you must connect two dots, and you don't have enough information about neither of them.
I am on Upwork because a big and rather well-known organization asked me
to
create an account. I have even edited pages! Yay! Go figure which one,
and
why! ;p (To make it easy, their initials reads W-M-F, and no it was not about Wikipedia-editing.)
I see all the postings from people that ask for help about their
wikipedia
pages. People ask for help because the failure of the
wikipedia-communities
to provide sufficient help. Going after the people that help them is not
a
good solution, it is (sorry) a stupid solution. If someone ask for help, then help them!
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 2:22 AM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
Why? IMO it will protect users from being impersonated.
It will allow us to more easily have taken down Fivver and Upworks
accounts
that are pretending to be established Wikipedians.
How would this leak anything? People involve with paid editor are
already
required to disclose the intermediaries through which they work and
this
does not change that.
James
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 6:19 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, bad idea. Can't be done and will only lead to stalking and alienating users. (Or rather it can be done, but would imply leakage
of
identifiable information to such a degree that it would put the
involved
organizations on the front pages for weeks.)
John Erling Blad /jeblad
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 5:40 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com
wrote:
Have started a meta RfC regarding the above* here https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/ interlinking_of_accounts_involved_with_paid_editing_to_ decrease_impersonation.*
This is to help address issues of impersonation of established
Wikipedians
by paid editors.
Further thoughts appreciated. Best
James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what you propose runs a serious legal risk.
{{citation needed}}
I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be implemented.
Why?
Thanks, Mike
If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to this.
I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start blocking accounts on this terms.
Feel free to believe otherwise.
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
you
propose runs a serious legal risk.
{{citation needed}}
I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be implemented.
Why?
Thanks, Mike
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
No one is proposing going to anyone's employer. The proposal requires no sharing of private account deals with Upworks or anyone else. These comments do not appear to have any relation to what is being proposed.
James
On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 7:43 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to this.
I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start blocking accounts on this terms.
Feel free to believe otherwise.
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
you
propose runs a serious legal risk.
{{citation needed}}
I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer
be
implemented.
Why?
Thanks, Mike
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Everything being discussed here seems to have already been publicly posted by the relevant users? No private information seems to be being shared...
Thanks, Mike
On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:43, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
If I go to somebody's employer and make wild claims about a person, like he does something irregular or illegal, then it is pretty much identical to this.
I seriously doubt WMF will be willing to share user account details with Upwork or any other, and I seriously doubt Upwork (or any other) will start blocking accounts on this terms.
Feel free to believe otherwise.
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Michael Peel email@mikepeel.net wrote:
On 13 Sep 2017, at 22:19, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, but this is a horribly bad idea, and anyone that try to do what
you
propose runs a serious legal risk.
{{citation needed}}
I guess you will have a few support, but I really hope this will newer be implemented.
Why?
Thanks, Mike
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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