Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia communities put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main Page or Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia, Arabic Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of Facebook as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link as "official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects can do that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1%BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A...
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune minatahatsune@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia communities put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main Page or Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia, Arabic Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of Facebook as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link as "official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects can do that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because it same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune minatahatsune@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia communities put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link as "official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because it same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune minatahatsune@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia communities put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link as "official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority of Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some kind of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing visitors to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine. It is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach, awareness, and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
Asaf
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects
can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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My personal preference is to NOT link to Facebook. I think they use the energy of people enough already.
However, I also think it is up to local communities to decide what works for them best, there is no "one size fits all" here, IMHO
best,
DJ "pundit"
On Feb 28, 2018 20:06, "Jimmy Wales" jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because it same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune minatahatsune@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Le 28/02/2018 à 20:44, Dariusz Jemielniak a écrit :
My personal preference is to NOT link to Facebook. I think they use the energy of people enough already.
However, I also think it is up to local communities to decide what works for them best, there is no "one size fits all" here, IMHO
Sure, it's good to let them decide, and it's also good to give feed back of what see as possible issue or not especially when asked for such an opinion. :)
best,
DJ "pundit"
On Feb 28, 2018 20:06, "Jimmy Wales" jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because it same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune minatahatsune@gmail.com wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Saluton,
Can we actually have a link to a page with a concrete example so we can judge this factually?
Vikiame
Le 28/02/2018 à 20:43, Asaf Bartov a écrit :
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority of Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some kind of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing visitors to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine. It is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach, awareness, and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
AsafOn Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects
can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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At your service
https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniyetm%C9%99_(roman)
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:26 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz < psychoslave@culture-libre.org> wrote:
Saluton,
Can we actually have a link to a page with a concrete example so we can judge this factually?
Vikiame
Le 28/02/2018 à 20:43, Asaf Bartov a écrit :
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority of Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some kind of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing visitors to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine. It is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach, awareness, and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
AsafOn Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of
any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and
violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects
can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
> . If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it. > Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l , mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Ok, thank you. To my mind the main problem with that kind of practice pertain to the lake of Free-Libre-Archivable-Infrastructure-Rack (FLAIR) alternative along the proprietary platform. One problem with this platform, is that – as far as I know – we don't have comprehensive archives, let alone an archive policy. If tomorrow a proprietary platform decide to erase all data related to a group, as far as I know they can do so¹.
Also, as I usually don't employ this services, so I don't know to which extend this groups can enforce a free license policy for everything published there. This plus terms of service, I have no idea how legal a problem it would be to dump this group discussions into a public archive.
Anyway, would a FLAIR alternative be proposed, I would see no point in promoting the closed garden within Wikimedia projects, although bridges which automatically synchronize data flow on popular closed platforms would be still obviously important to maintain.
Actually, even here I think that we should make a policy that submitting to our mailling list is conditioned by agreement that the posted material will be published under a free license.
Cheers
¹ Let alone duty to keep a record of everything enforced by this or that law, the thing is that it can become offline instantly.
Le 28/02/2018 à 21:32, Yaroslav Blanter a écrit :
At your service
https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniyetm%C9%99_(roman)
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:26 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz < psychoslave@culture-libre.org> wrote:
Saluton,
Can we actually have a link to a page with a concrete example so we can judge this factually?
Vikiame
Le 28/02/2018 à 20:43, Asaf Bartov a écrit :
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority of Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some kind of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing visitors to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine. It is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach, awareness, and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
AsafOn Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of
any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global policy. James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
> Sitenotice? > > I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia, > Arabic
> Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of > Facebook
> as verified. > > All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a link > as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and
> violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects > can
do
> that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice > promotion to Facebook at < > https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% > BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ > ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22 > >> . If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it. >> > Thank you! > > Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy > Vietnamese Wikimedian > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe >
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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I am not seeing any link to Facebook here?
https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniyetm%C9%99_(roman)
James
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 2:14 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz < psychoslave@culture-libre.org> wrote:
Ok, thank you. To my mind the main problem with that kind of practice pertain to the lake of Free-Libre-Archivable-Infrastructure-Rack (FLAIR) alternative along the proprietary platform. One problem with this platform, is that – as far as I know – we don't have comprehensive archives, let alone an archive policy. If tomorrow a proprietary platform decide to erase all data related to a group, as far as I know they can do so¹.
Also, as I usually don't employ this services, so I don't know to which extend this groups can enforce a free license policy for everything published there. This plus terms of service, I have no idea how legal a problem it would be to dump this group discussions into a public archive.
Anyway, would a FLAIR alternative be proposed, I would see no point in promoting the closed garden within Wikimedia projects, although bridges which automatically synchronize data flow on popular closed platforms would be still obviously important to maintain.
Actually, even here I think that we should make a policy that submitting to our mailling list is conditioned by agreement that the posted material will be published under a free license.
Cheers
¹ Let alone duty to keep a record of everything enforced by this or that law, the thing is that it can become offline instantly.
Le 28/02/2018 à 21:32, Yaroslav Blanter a écrit :
At your service
https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeniyetm%C9%99_(roman)
Cheers Yaroslav
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:26 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz < psychoslave@culture-libre.org> wrote:
Saluton,
Can we actually have a link to a page with a concrete example so we can judge this factually?
Vikiame
Le 28/02/2018 à 20:43, Asaf Bartov a écrit :
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority
of Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some kind of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing visitors to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine. It is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach, awareness, and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
AsafOn Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of
any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those
consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical
website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global policy. James
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune < > > minatahatsune@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia > communities > put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
> Page > or
> Sitenotice? >> >> I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia, >> >> Arabic > > Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of >> >> Facebook > > as verified. >> >> All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a >> link >> >> as > "official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook and
> violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects >> >> can > do
> that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice >> promotion to Facebook at < >> https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% >> BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ >> ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22 >> >> . If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it. >>> >>> Thank you! >> >> Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy >> Vietnamese Wikimedian >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ >> wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >> , >> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsu > bscribe> >> >> > > -- > James Heilman > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma > ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe > > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 5:31 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I am not seeing any link to Facebook here?
It's part of a banner, not sure the banner is set to 100%. It says:
"Azərbaycanca Vikipediya ilə daim əlaqədə olmaq üçün bizi "Facebook"da izləyin!"
in small font at the top, with a link to:
https://www.facebook.com/azvikipediya
Personally, I'd love to see WMF or a chapter set up a public Mastodon instance; the project has matured significantly since its first release and is at least a viable free/open alternative to the Twitter-ish forms of social networking. FB still has event management functions that are difficult to substitute, however.
Erik
The two cases some referred to https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitenotice and https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E1%BA%A3n_m%E1%BA%ABu:AdvancedSiteNotices
I don't like facebook at all but it's a de facto standard for communication/outreaching. If "official" groups meet a series of requisites. For example being managed by a sufficient number of trusted users, respecting "something recalling" friendly space expectations, etc.
Vito
2018-03-01 3:01 GMT+01:00 Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com:
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 5:31 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
I am not seeing any link to Facebook here?
It's part of a banner, not sure the banner is set to 100%. It says:
"Azərbaycanca Vikipediya ilə daim əlaqədə olmaq üçün bizi "Facebook"da izləyin!"
in small font at the top, with a link to:
https://www.facebook.com/azvikipediya
Personally, I'd love to see WMF or a chapter set up a public Mastodon instance; the project has matured significantly since its first release and is at least a viable free/open alternative to the Twitter-ish forms of social networking. FB still has event management functions that are difficult to substitute, however.
Erik
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2018-03-01 4:01 GMT+02:00 Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com:
Personally, I'd love to see WMF or a chapter set up a public Mastodon instance; the project has matured significantly since its first release and is at least a viable free/open alternative to the Twitter-ish forms of social networking. FB still has event management functions that are difficult to substitute, however.
Even if there would be an open-source alternative with all the Facebook functionality, installing, maintaining and promoting it would be a huge waste of money. The Facebook pages are an *outreach* tool, which implies getting out of our walled garden, not extending the garden. Choosing Facebook is simply the smart thing to do ATM, since all alternatives are smaller in size and engagement.
The more interesting thing is what you do once you have the page and you have convinced your community to put it in a banner or sidebar. I have experimented with small tasks that could be done by newcomers, such as identifying images or correcting diacritics, with somewhat mixed results (the more I go towards text editing, the lower the impact). I am curious if other people have done similar experiments and would be willing to share their experience.
Strainu
Erik
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On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Strainu strainu10@gmail.com wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see WMF or a chapter set up a public Mastodon instance; the project has matured significantly since its first release and is at least a viable free/open alternative to the Twitter-ish forms of social networking. FB still has event management functions that are difficult to substitute, however.
Even if there would be an open-source alternative with all the Facebook functionality, installing, maintaining and promoting it would be a huge waste of money.
I would agree if we compared centralized service to centralized service (e.g. Ello vs. Facebook), but the premise of services like Mastodon is federation between servers (instances) using open protocols like ActivityPub. This means that even small organizations can credibly host "instances" of a social network like Mastodon while participating in the larger federation of users (you can follow users from other instances, reply to their statuses, etc.). Mastodon is the first IMO fairly successful implementation of this approach; it has more than 1M accounts of which about 10% show recent activity, and it already is reaching subcultures beyond the usual suspects.
To give you an idea of the cost, you can run a mid-size instance with a few thousand users, automated backups and monitoring for tens of dollars a month (the main cost is in person-time, but most instances like this are run by volunteers and supported by donations). So I do think it would be very possible even for an interested volunteer to set up an instance with reasonable uptime, backup and monitoring characteristics for exploratory use. Certainly it would be possible at reasonable cost for WMF or a chapter to do so, possibly with some "active contributor on Wikimedia projects" requirement for creating an account.
Once again, the crucial point here is that instances communicate with each other, so even though your own instance may only have a few thousand users, you are part of the larger "fediverse" which includes software with completely different UIs implementing the same protocol.
A nice intro for the unfamiliar: https://blog.rowan.website/2018/01/08/yet-another-explanation-of-mastodon/
Incidentally, the protocol used by Mastodon, ActivityPub, recently became a W3C recommendation: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
Of course, I'm not opposed to people using FB for organizing -- I think it's a totally reasonable choice, for the reasons you say -- but I do think it's worth keeping an eye on federated social networks in general, and Mastodon in particular, as a potential alternative space for Wikimedia to engage in, _including_ for outreach. The numbers are obviously still a drop in the bucket compared with the mega-networks, so pragmatic considerations may reasonably prevail in many circumstances.
Erik
Actually, I don't see this things as necessarily incompatible options. If Mastodon have bridges to other platform such as Facebook then it would in fact even a way to gather effort and reaching both networks. On the other hand if there is not such a bridge, then it will add resource requirements to manage both canal.
On a broader view, I would like to put back the topic of archiving our communications. Right now we already have many canal to communicate:
- in wiki project and talk pages - a set of mailling lists hosted by WMF and probably many more by misc. chapters and user groups - some discourse instances - social media groups - telegram groups - IRC channels
And probably more I forgot or that I'm not even aware of.
Not all this communication canal are archived equally. I think it's important to archive as much as we can, making them conveniently searchable can always be done later, but making their data archived can only be done while they are available.
So before adding yet an other canal, I think it would be good to have a rational explicit goals regarding archive strategy of our communication. If there's a consensus to let things happen without caring about archiving, OK, but it should at least debated. If it already was, or is already in progress, please provide a reference.
Cheers
Le 02/03/2018 à 07:05, Erik Moeller a écrit :
On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Strainu strainu10@gmail.com wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see WMF or a chapter set up a public Mastodon instance; the project has matured significantly since its first release and is at least a viable free/open alternative to the Twitter-ish forms of social networking. FB still has event management functions that are difficult to substitute, however.
Even if there would be an open-source alternative with all the Facebook functionality, installing, maintaining and promoting it would be a huge waste of money.
I would agree if we compared centralized service to centralized service (e.g. Ello vs. Facebook), but the premise of services like Mastodon is federation between servers (instances) using open protocols like ActivityPub. This means that even small organizations can credibly host "instances" of a social network like Mastodon while participating in the larger federation of users (you can follow users from other instances, reply to their statuses, etc.). Mastodon is the first IMO fairly successful implementation of this approach; it has more than 1M accounts of which about 10% show recent activity, and it already is reaching subcultures beyond the usual suspects.
To give you an idea of the cost, you can run a mid-size instance with a few thousand users, automated backups and monitoring for tens of dollars a month (the main cost is in person-time, but most instances like this are run by volunteers and supported by donations). So I do think it would be very possible even for an interested volunteer to set up an instance with reasonable uptime, backup and monitoring characteristics for exploratory use. Certainly it would be possible at reasonable cost for WMF or a chapter to do so, possibly with some "active contributor on Wikimedia projects" requirement for creating an account.
Once again, the crucial point here is that instances communicate with each other, so even though your own instance may only have a few thousand users, you are part of the larger "fediverse" which includes software with completely different UIs implementing the same protocol.
A nice intro for the unfamiliar: https://blog.rowan.website/2018/01/08/yet-another-explanation-of-mastodon/
Incidentally, the protocol used by Mastodon, ActivityPub, recently became a W3C recommendation: https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/
Of course, I'm not opposed to people using FB for organizing -- I think it's a totally reasonable choice, for the reasons you say -- but I do think it's worth keeping an eye on federated social networks in general, and Mastodon in particular, as a potential alternative space for Wikimedia to engage in, _including_ for outreach. The numbers are obviously still a drop in the bucket compared with the mega-networks, so pragmatic considerations may reasonably prevail in many circumstances.
Erik
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I resent this for another people from Vietnamese community need to join discussion, but subscribe the wikimedia-l just now.
2018-03-01 4:43 GMT+09:00 Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org:
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority of Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some kind of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing visitors to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine. It is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach, awareness, and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
Asaf
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a
link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook
and
violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects
can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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The issue at hand here is that the linked-to Facebook page is not directly affiliated with the Wikipedia project. It might share some members, but Wikipedia has no control over its content. For a Wikipedia project that has had its share of misconceptions about its affiliations, I think it's inadvisable to link to a non-official page. Preferably, the page should meet some minimum requirements to become an official page of the project and be "anointed" as such before it's linked to from the project front page.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 10:06 AM Minata Hatsune minatahatsune@gmail.com wrote:
I resent this for another people from Vietnamese community need to join discussion, but subscribe the wikimedia-l just now.
2018-03-01 4:43 GMT+09:00 Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org:
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority
of
Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some
kind
of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing
visitors
to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine.
It
is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach,
awareness,
and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
Asaf
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not?
Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia
Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a
link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook
and
violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other
projects
can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22 > . If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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?subject=unsubscribe>
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Sorry, but can I understand this as a promotion link to Facebook pages (managed by community) is recommended for outreach Wikipedia, even if it isn't an "official Facebook page" managed by WMF or chapters/usergroups?
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Supporter, Wikimedian
2018-03-01 4:43 GMT+09:00 Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org:
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority of Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some kind of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing visitors to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine. It is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach, awareness, and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
Asaf
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not? Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a
link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook
and
violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other projects
can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22
. If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
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The issue at hand here is that the linked-to Facebook page is not directly affiliated with the Wikipedia project. It might share some members, but Wikipedia has no control over its content. For a Wikipedia project that has had its share of misconceptions about its affiliations, I think it's inadvisable to link to a non-official page. Preferably, the page should meet some minimum requirements to become an official page of the project and be "anointed" as such before it's linked to from the project front page.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018, 7:53 AM Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy minhhuywiki@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry, but can I understand this as a promotion link to Facebook pages (managed by community) is recommended for outreach Wikipedia, even if it isn't an "official Facebook page" managed by WMF or chapters/usergroups?
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Supporter, Wikimedian
2018-03-01 4:43 GMT+09:00 Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org:
Facebook is a de-facto major venue of communication for a great majority
of
Internet users. Many communities, user groups, and chapters have some
kind
of formal presence on Facebook -- "groups" or "pages". Directing
visitors
to your wiki to *your own wiki's* presence on this other major platform, i.e. a direct link to your group/page on Facebook, is absolutely fine.
It
is *quite* different from, say, just linking to www.facebook.com or explicitly endorsing it as a platform ("Join Facebook! It's great!") in general.
As you note, a number of communities have done or are doing this. Especially for smaller communities, the impact of such link placement can be a significant driver of traffic (i.e. readers!) to your community group/page on Facebook, which itself is important for outreach,
awareness,
and volunteer recruitment, and therefore is mission-aligned.
Cheers,
Asaf
On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 11:06 AM Jimmy Wales jimmywales@wikia-inc.com wrote:
Speaking only for myself, not as a member of the board, I don't know of any legal or other reason why this should not be done. I think we should be very careful about links or appearance of endorsement especially on article pages, but outreach to people in the world should take place wherever we find a willing and useful audience.
On 2/28/18 6:29 AM, Minata Hatsune wrote:
I know it based on local consensus, but what I mean here is: those consensus valid for WMF Term of Use and others policies or not?
Because
it
same with Wikipedia have linked with 3rd party, which is a commerical website.
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian
2018-02-28 18:52 GMT+09:00 James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com:
IMO this is based on local community consensus. It is not a global
policy.
James
On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Minata Hatsune <
minatahatsune@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello, I have a question: is it legal and valid for Wikipedia
communities
put promotion links to their Facebook pages on public space as Main
Page
or
Sitenotice?
I see many of Wikimedia projects doing this, as Indonesia
Wikipedia,
Arabic
Wikipedia, etc... Their Facebooks page also have blue checkmark of
as verified.
All what I concern is: Facebook is a commerical website, we put a
link
as
"official" to them, will it same with Wikipedia biased for Facebook
and
violated the NPOV policy? And in finally: is it OK if other
projects
can
do
that? Vietnamese Wikipedia also have a discussion about sitenotice promotion to Facebook at < https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Th%E1%BA%A3o_lu%E1% BA%ADn/Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_b%C3%A1_trang_Facebook_%22Wikipedia_ ti%E1%BA%BFng_Vi%E1%BB%87t%22 > . If this is OK, I think we have no reason to reject it.
Thank you!
Trần Nguyễn Minh Huy Vietnamese Wikimedian _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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Hello,
I believe that unofficial groups are fairly common. There were unofficial meetups for years in the City of Seattle.
Similar to how computer games, movies, and television shows may have unofficial fan clubs and meetup groups, I believe that the same should be true for Wikimedia.
I can understand how problems would arise if unofficial groups tried to use Wikimedia trademarks, such as the name "Wikipedia", to sell merchandise, to do political advocacy, or to request donations. For those types of situations there are affiliation agreements, trademark agreements, and other legal processes that happen between local organizations and WMF.
So long as a group is not misusing the trademarks, I think that people who would like to meet or communicate with others who are interested in Wikimedia should be free to do so.
Besides the benefits from allowing people to make informal connections, another reason for being somewhat generous with allowing use of the trademarks is that I think that most of us would not want the WMF Board to use the trademarks to try to suppress dissent with WMF decisions from Wikimedia affiliate organizations, online communities, and individuals. Some of us have memories of WMF's use of Superprotect against the German Wikipedia community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Wikipedia#Superprotect_and_Media_Viewer_controversy .
If you are interested in discussing this topic further or have concerns about a specific group's use of trademarks, then I suggest that you contact WMF Legal and/or the Affiliations Committee.
I hope that this information is helpful. Thank you for wanting to protect the Wikipedia brand.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 7:55 AM, Dung Nguyen dhnguyen@gmail.com wrote:
The issue at hand here is that the linked-to Facebook page is not directly affiliated with the Wikipedia project. It might share some members, but Wikipedia has no control over its content. For a Wikipedia project that has had its share of misconceptions about its affiliations, I think it's inadvisable to link to a non-official page. Preferably, the page should meet some minimum requirements to become an official page of the project and be "anointed" as such before it's linked to from the project front page.
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org