On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 3:36 PM Joseph Seddon <josephseddon(a)gmail.com> wrote: Certainly. I can't foresee the future. But Trump's first term in office is very troubling. Relentless attacks on journalists, escalation of political violence, attempts to undermine Section 230 protections, attempts to remove apps from app stores by Executive Order, etc. -- checked by a judiciary that's increasingly aligned with the Trump agenda. That's the United States today. From this we can extrapolate plausible scenarios in which the question where to locate Wikimedia's core assets could become the single most urgent strategic question the movement faces. I hope that some preliminary contingency plans exist or are being developed, and I'm sure that the movement-wide debate will widen if the US continues its downward slide into authoritarianism. Erik

Hi all, We have had discussions on this with many Wikimedians over the years, but frankly, the issue never seemed pressing enough to pursue more seriously. Some points made that I remember where: - Perhaps it is enough to just have back-up servers in another jurisdictions that could kick-in and whose capacity could quickly be upgraded in case of need. - Nordic jurisdictions like Iceland and Norway frequently came up with the arguments: stable political systems, solid digital rights track records, a climate that helps save energy on cooling servers & availability of hydropower (i.e. environmental benefits). I think such a move would require serious studies and long, community-wide debates. I can not assess how urgent it is. But then again, waiting until it is a real issue is probably not a great idea. Cheers, Dimi На ср, 30.09.2020 г. в 11:35 Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki(a)gmail.com> написа:

Hi all, as Dimi said, there had been some discussions about this topic over the years. Unfortunately they were not taken for serious, for example https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Move_the_WMF_and_Serve… . And there is not only the political issue, there are environmental concerns as well. Earthquakes and fires in California, Hurricanes in the South. Cheers, Gereon Am 30.09.2020 um 11:44 schrieb Dimitar Parvanov Dimitrov:

On 30/09/2020 13:55, Pascal Martin wrote: Hello, Wikimedia has caches servers located in Amsterdam in the same facility of AMSIX which is one of the largest internet exchange point in Europe. The caches thus have a very good connectivity with all the major internet service provider in Europe (and beyond). France several exchange points (France-IX, PARIX, SFINX which is operated by renater) and possibly others. But to my knowledge none offer the same amount of connectivity as AMSIX. Beside privacy, hosting would have to obey to french laws and the copyright laws are entirely different than the one in the USA. On top of my mind: there is no such thing as "fair use" and no "freedom of panorama". Surely laws can be changed by intense lobbying and could I see the use case for France to relax some copyrights laws to better accommodate hosting. That could potentially attract a wide range of content that are seeking a safe copyright heaven. But I don't see it happening anytime soon and that would require a lot of lobbying by a wide range of organizations beside just Wikimedia. <fiction> Maybe WMF CEO can try giving a call to french president and see whether some arrangement can be made :-] </fiction> -- Antoine "hashar" Musso

We should have technical partners in multiple other jurisdictions that could help in a crisis, and load bearing infrastructure in at least one of them, and a plan for how and when to switch. (The walkthrough of what would be needed for a smooth transfer send most important, and useful for general reliability planning) We should also fully support and realize Wikimedia-on-ipfs, similar to what the internet archive had been doing. (Santhosh has some excellent ideas there) 🌍🌏🌎🌑 On Wed., Sep. 30, 2020, 5:35 a.m. Dan Garry (Deskana), &lt;djgwiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

… hence the existence of Wikimedia chapters? I suspect at least WMDE could take this on if it becomes necessary, although other chapters aren’t as technologically developed as I’d have liked to have seen. Thanks, Mike

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 12:22 PM Nathan &lt;nawrich(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: The chapters do seem like the obvious potentially viable easy solution here, if WMF set up that contingency plan. For instance, if WMDE did take over in an emergency, then the critical difference is that Germany doesn't extradite its own citizens to the US. So there'd just have to be a complete handoff of primary hosting to outside the US and some kind of agreement for WMDE (or pick your chapter) to take over operational control. There's probably a lot that real lawyers, of which I am not one, would know better here. The only item that seems more or less impossible is preventing 5 in light of the impacts of climate change. There is no locale on the planet that won't suffer from severe weather and natural disasters, just some (like the poorer countries and anywhere in the tropics) that will see worse impacts. So the only nuance is aiming for more like "Prepared for the event of severe weather and natural disasters" not "none". On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 2:44 PM Michael Peel &lt;email(a)mikepeel.net&gt; wrote:

If things are as bad as that then there should be and might already be an offshore backup, possibly more than one, as it is a no-brainer, and I don’t think WMF tech management and the board are stupid, and nor are those who would wish to prevent it from happening. But plausible deniability. Cheers, Peter -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Christophe Henner Sent: 30 September 2020 23:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moving the technical infrastructure out of the US Hi everyone, Options to mitigate any risks are numerous, especially when it comes to content distribution (private/semi-private/public/delegated/federated/a mix of everything) but given the current context I would restrain from having this as a public / community discussion. We, community members, would most probably have great inputs but when one is dealing with this kind of topic, designing contingencies plan, one has to be ful of what information can be public. I have no idea whether staff is working on such a topic, and it is better that way. But we, as community members and awesome human beings, must be mindful of some things: - The people in charge of that topic are mostly US Citizens. The current political and social climate is most probably draining their energy. Imagine having to manage it both from a personal and professional standpoint. Top that doing it for something as important as our projects. We cannot fathom their anxiety levels and should not add any to it. - Sending email about this topic, they have to read it. They most probably have to discuss, debate and balance whether they should answer or not. Imagine adding that to the first point. - They know for a fact, remember a lot of community members are staff, that community could be helping. But they can't ask for it. - Top all of that with them knowing that whatever course of action they might pick, it comes with a toll. Whether it is to talk about it here, and perhaps hinder their efforts, or not talk about it here and be perceived as ignoring the community. - Top all of that with the stress of trying to do their job in a global pandemic situation that might have them with loved ones at risk. Or with the need to care daily for young / elderly people. - Top that with the fact that they most probably all have relatives that at best are in financial struggle, or health struggles or are managing with the loss of loved ones. Take a pause. Try to step in that space. Imagine how you would feel. Multiply that by a hundred. I would recommend we (community members) restrain from talking about it. Perhaps what could be helpful, I am saying could, is for the people that do actually have knowledge on those topics to just say they are available to help if needs be with your area of expertise. If no one at the Foundation acknowledges this thread or your emails, it is ok. It doesn't mean you are not valued, it means that you are being spared from that weight. We can provide support, but we should be mindful not to increase their current level of stress. Please all take care of yourselves, loved ones and each other PS: I said staff, but read it as "anyone with an official Wikimedia Foundation capacity". I know for a fact how those situations can be hard to manage when you are a volunteer board member in the shadow too. -- Christophe On Wed, 30 Sep 2020 at 21:32, Steven Walling &lt;steven.walling(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com