wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.orgHi,
If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several proposals. http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
See you there, Micru
Hoi, Would be interested but I am not "there" ... As are many other people ... Thanks, GerardM
On 9 August 2013 06:43, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.orgHi,
If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several proposals. http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
See you there, Micru _______________________________________________ Wiktionary-l mailing list Wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiktionary-l
Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any of the Dutch users is, I can't say for others.
I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside the wider Wiktionary community. To me the group of users participating is too narrow. Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users from Wiktionary do not read that. I think a Wikt-community wide discussion is needed.
Romaine
-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata To: wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.org, "Wikimania general list (open subscription)" wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org, "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org, "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM
Hi,
If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several proposals.
http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm
Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
See you there, Micru
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
_______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Le 2013-08-09 13:04, Romaine Wiki a écrit :
Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any of the Dutch users is, I can't say for others.
I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside the wider Wiktionary community. To me the group of users participating is too narrow. Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users from Wiktionary do not read that. I think a Wikt-community wide discussion is needed.
I agree, and I think meta would be the most obvious channel for such a discussion.
As said in the previous email, there's already [[Wiktionary future]] which is waiting for contributions and discussion on meta. Anyway, whatever the canal, it would be realy important to make aware as much contributors as possible aware of this initiative, so they can provide relevant feedback specific to their needs.
Romaine
On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata To: wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.org, "Wikimania general list (open subscription)" wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org, "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org, "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM
Hi,
If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several proposals.
http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm
Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
See you there, Micru
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
JP On Aug 9, 2013 8:17 PM, "Mathieu Stumpf" psychoslave@culture-libre.org wrote:
Le 2013-08-09 13:04, Romaine Wiki a écrit :
Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any of the Dutch users is, I can't say for others.
I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside the wider Wiktionary community. To me the group of users participating is too narrow. Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users from Wiktionary do not read that. I think a Wikt-community wide discussion is needed.
I agree, and I think meta would be the most obvious channel for such a discussion.
As said in the previous email, there's already [[Wiktionary future]] which is waiting for contributions and discussion on meta. Anyway, whatever the canal, it would be realy important to make aware as much contributors as possible aware of this initiative, so they can provide relevant feedback specific to their needs.
Romaine
------------------------------**-------------- On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca dacuetu@gmail.com wrote:
Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata To: wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.org, "Wikimania general list (open subscription)" <wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." <wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**orgwikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM
Hi,
If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several proposals.
http://wikimania2013.**wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_** Wiktionary_in_Wikidatahttp://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm
Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
See you there, Micru
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no, because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary, and the technology they use cannot be supported with the existing resources available. There was a great deal of community reasoned community opposition.
If they independently want to engage in the process on the Wikidata side without a goal of creating a competing Wikimedia project, that is one thing... but bringing them to the table as equals sets bad precedent for sister projects, contributor retention, community support, etc.
Just because the service Wikidata could provide to Wiktionaries is exactly what Omegawiki is doing. I'm not saying to talk about Omegawiki joining WMF but looking at a way to use what volunteers already committed time to develop on Omegawiki on Wikidata implementation for Wiktionaries. On Aug 10, 2013 12:22 AM, "Laura Hale" laura@fanhistory.com wrote:
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no, because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary, and the technology they use cannot be supported with the existing resources available. There was a great deal of community reasoned community opposition.
If they independently want to engage in the process on the Wikidata side without a goal of creating a competing Wikimedia project, that is one thing... but bringing them to the table as equals sets bad precedent for sister projects, contributor retention, community support, etc.
-- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hello,
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
Agreed.
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale laura@fanhistory.com wrote:
Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no, because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
This is not actually the case. There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at least simply providing hosting. It stalled because the code needed a security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to put some time into that. The OW editors and dev were very interested in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and translations.
Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the criteria for requesting WMF adoption. * It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki * It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the scope of free knowledge * It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles. * It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to dedicate themselves to.
Regards, Sam.
We are keeping notes on Etherpad http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata
If connectivity allows, you can also try to connect via Hangout or Skype or IRC. Ping aude or me on #wikimedia-wikidata on IRC.
Cheers, Denny
2013/8/10 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com
Hello,
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
Agreed.
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale laura@fanhistory.com wrote:
Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no, because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
This is not actually the case. There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at least simply providing hosting. It stalled because the code needed a security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to put some time into that. The OW editors and dev were very interested in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and translations.
Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
- It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
- It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
scope of free knowledge
- It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
- It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to dedicate themselves to.
Regards, Sam.
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Sorry for cross-posting]
Yes, I agree that the OmegaWiki community should be involved in the discussions, and I pointed GerardM to our proposals whenever and discussions, using him as a liaison. We also looked and keep looking at the OmegaWiki data model to see what we are missing.
Our latest proposal is different from OmegaWiki in two major points:
* our primary goal is to provide support for structured data in the Wiktionaries. We do not plan to be the main resource ourselves, where readers come to in order to look up something, we merely provide structured data that a Wiktionary may or may not use. This parallels the role of Wikidata has with regards to Wikipedia. This also highlights the difference between Wikidata and OmegaWiki, since OmegaWiki's goal is "to create a dictionary of all words of all languages, including lexical, terminological and ontological information."
* a smaller difference is the data model. Wikidata's latest proposal to support Wiktionary is centered around lexemes, and we do not assume that there is such a things as a language-independent defined meaning. But no matter what model we end up with, it is important to ensure that the bulk of the data could freely flow between the projects, and even though we might disagree on this issue in the modeling, it is ensured that the exchange of data is widely possible.
We tried to keep notes on the discussion we had today: < http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata%3E
My major take home message for me is that: * the proposal needs more visual elements, especially a mock-up or sketch of how it would look like and how it could be used on the Wiktionaries * there is no generally accepted place for a discussion that involves all Wiktionary projects. Still, my initial decision to have the discussion on the Wikidata wiki was not a good one, and it should and will be moved to Meta.
Having said that, the current proposal for the data model of how to support Wiktionary with Wikidata seems to have garnered a lot of support so far. So this is what I will continue building upon. Further comments are extremely welcomed. You can find it here:
http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary
As said, it will be moved to Meta, as soon as the requested mockups and extensions are done.
Cheers, Denny
2013/8/10 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com
Hello,
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com wrote:
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
Agreed.
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale laura@fanhistory.com wrote:
Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no, because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
This is not actually the case. There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at least simply providing hosting. It stalled because the code needed a security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to put some time into that. The OW editors and dev were very interested in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and translations.
Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
- It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
- It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
scope of free knowledge
- It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
- It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to dedicate themselves to.
Regards, Sam.
Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
To add up a couple of comments to what Denny said, from my experience with Wikisource, reaching out to international, loosely connected communities is already a big challenge on its own. I would like to invite Wiktionary contributors to take a look to this Individual Engagement Grant project that Aubrey and me are doing for Wikisource, because maybe it would make sense that a group of involved Wiktionarians started a similar initiative for Wiktionary. The original application can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vis...
And the midterm report: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vis...
If anyone from the Wiktionary community wants to step forward, I would be more than happy to share experiences and provide advice.
Cheers, Micru
On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Denny Vrandečić < denny.vrandecic@wikimedia.de> wrote:
[Sorry for cross-posting]
Yes, I agree that the OmegaWiki community should be involved in the discussions, and I pointed GerardM to our proposals whenever and discussions, using him as a liaison. We also looked and keep looking at the OmegaWiki data model to see what we are missing.
Our latest proposal is different from OmegaWiki in two major points:
- our primary goal is to provide support for structured data in the
Wiktionaries. We do not plan to be the main resource ourselves, where readers come to in order to look up something, we merely provide structured data that a Wiktionary may or may not use. This parallels the role of Wikidata has with regards to Wikipedia. This also highlights the difference between Wikidata and OmegaWiki, since OmegaWiki's goal is "to create a dictionary of all words of all languages, including lexical, terminological and ontological information."
- a smaller difference is the data model. Wikidata's latest proposal to
support Wiktionary is centered around lexemes, and we do not assume that there is such a things as a language-independent defined meaning. But no matter what model we end up with, it is important to ensure that the bulk of the data could freely flow between the projects, and even though we might disagree on this issue in the modeling, it is ensured that the exchange of data is widely possible.
We tried to keep notes on the discussion we had today: < http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata%3E
My major take home message for me is that:
- the proposal needs more visual elements, especially a mock-up or sketch
of how it would look like and how it could be used on the Wiktionaries
- there is no generally accepted place for a discussion that involves all
Wiktionary projects. Still, my initial decision to have the discussion on the Wikidata wiki was not a good one, and it should and will be moved to Meta.
Having said that, the current proposal for the data model of how to support Wiktionary with Wikidata seems to have garnered a lot of support so far. So this is what I will continue building upon. Further comments are extremely welcomed. You can find it here:
http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary
As said, it will be moved to Meta, as soon as the requested mockups and extensions are done.
Cheers, Denny
2013/8/10 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com
Hello,
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland lebo.beland@gmail.com
wrote:
I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
Agreed.
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale laura@fanhistory.com
wrote:
Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no, because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
This is not actually the case. There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at least simply providing hosting. It stalled because the code needed a security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to put some time into that. The OW editors and dev were very interested in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and translations.
Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
- It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
- It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
scope of free knowledge
- It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
- It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to dedicate themselves to.
Regards, Sam.
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