Thank you for your support. I would like to again
invite all interested
parties (especially developers, but also writers,
photographers etc.) to
add themselves on the above page, so that we can
together move this
project forward after MediaWiki 1.3 has reached a
stable state. As the
above proposal states, I hope that we can also
implement single sign-on in
one fell swoop with the Commons itself, which would
be one important step
to bring the individual Wikimedia projects closer
together.
I am still willing to help and aid in this project. However, as things look now, the only help I can offer you is to discontinue any plans I myself have in this direction until you are ready.
One time there was just the English Wikipedia, then other languages were made. I have the feeling that I'm like someone wanting to set up another language and getting the answer that it's
a >good idea, but
that in half a year there will be a new software with language links and the possibility to have an interface adaptable to languages, and I just wait for that.
It's not that I don't like your plans. I do. And when the time comes, I'll join in. For now I'll just count my losses. And wonder why you might succeed and I do not. Is it because you are a developer and I'm not? Because your plans are grand and mine down-to-earth? Because I'm not brazen enough? Anyway, I lost. Again.
Andre Engels
André. Pause réflexion. Un vrai leader évite de perpétuellement marcher sur les pieds des autres. Il leur laisse de la place pour s'exprimer, parfois même il s'efface pour laisser les autres s'occuper d'un projet qui leur tient à coeur. Il évite de créer des rancoeurs :-) Enfin, juste ma triste opinion. ant
C'est bien de voir que tout au moins quelqu'un se souvient de la liste correcte pour discuter ces sujets. Est-ce que tous les autres oublient parce que en ce moment Jimbo ne reçoit pas les messages de cette liste-ci ?
--Michel Neige
Michael-
C'est bien de voir que tout au moins quelqu'un se souvient de la liste correcte pour discuter ces sujets. Est-ce que tous les autres oublient parce que en ce moment Jimbo ne reçoit pas les messages de cette liste-ci ?
Jimbo is subscribed to the list, but he started the thread on wikipedia-l, so I replied there. Is there any particular reason for this thread to be in French? Andre, Anthere and yourself all speak English, which is surely the best language to reach the largest number of people? foundation-l and wikipedia-l are multilingual to allow people to communicate who otherwise could not, not to have semi-private exchanges on a public list.
Regards,
Erik
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
Michael-
C'est bien de voir que tout au moins quelqu'un se
souvient de la liste
correcte pour discuter ces sujets. Est-ce que tous
les autres oublient
parce que en ce moment Jimbo ne re�oit pas les
messages de cette liste-ci ?
Jimbo is subscribed to the list, but he started the thread on wikipedia-l, so I replied there. Is there any particular reason for this thread to be in French? Andre, Anthere and yourself all speak English, which is surely the best language to reach the largest number of people? foundation-l and wikipedia-l are multilingual to allow people to communicate who otherwise could not, not to have semi-private exchanges on a public list.
Regards,
Erik
I would not *exactly* call public mails to a list with probably over 100 registered users, tracked by Google, "semi-private exchanges" :-)
Yes, there are reasons First, unless that recently changed, this *public* list is *multilingual. We do not need authorisation to write another language than english here.
Second, it is good to remind users of that list of this fact. When we use english all the time, people are lead to believe it is *mandatory* to write in english here. It is not
I'll add that comments stating it is inappropriate to write in french on a multilingual list, and requesting an explanation, do not exactly help asserting the fact this mailing list *is* multilingual.
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Anthere wrote in part:
I'll add that comments stating it is inappropriate to write in french on a multilingual list, and requesting an explanation, do not exactly help asserting the fact this mailing list *is* multilingual.
While I'm primarily in sympathy with your position, anthère, still it's important to distinguish "stating it is inappropriate" from "requesting an explanation". The latter is a good thing! Since more people here know English than know French (I assume), it's very helpful to the readers in general to have English explanations (such as Chris's nice summary to one of your recent posts).
French posts are not /inappropriate/ by any means, but they may be /ineffective/, relatively to English. That's something that every poster must keep in mind, as a practical matter, if they want their posts to be read.
-- Toby
--- Toby Bartels toby+wikipedia@math.ucr.edu wrote:
Anthere wrote in part:
I'll add that comments stating it is inappropriate
to
write in french on a multilingual list, and
requesting
an explanation, do not exactly help asserting the
fact
this mailing list *is* multilingual.
While I'm primarily in sympathy with your position, anth�re, still it's important to distinguish "stating it is inappropriate" from "requesting an explanation". The latter is a good thing! Since more people here know English than know French (I assume), it's very helpful to the readers in general to have English explanations (such as Chris's nice summary to one of your recent posts).
French posts are not /inappropriate/ by any means, but they may be /ineffective/, relatively to English. That's something that every poster must keep in mind, as a practical matter, if they want their posts to be read.
-- Toby
I understand well Toby There is the "law" (Wikimedia thrive on being diverse) and the "application of the law" (however, you shall learn to speak english if you want to participate to project-wide discussions).
Sic : http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ADeveloper_access#%E8%B3%AA%E5%95%8F
Forgive me to feel disgusted though.
Only moderate-level in english, and loosing huge time to say most things two times, I think I will more and more send google translations though.
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--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Only moderate-level in english, and loosing huge time to say most things two times, I think I will more and more send google translations though.
You're doing just fine in english.
Don't worry about translation. just put a one sentence summary so that those that don' speak french can at least see what it is, and so they can request a translation.
like this:
Dlfkjashdlkj lkjah sdlfk jgkjgksj ds dfaks ghdfkjwe ofgweyobo werb rfu ouygvef iuydv fioyvs dfkuvs dfkv. Asdfkv aweflasldf qowuefvoausyvdf. Lasvdf kvasvdf vlasdflyavd Wikipedia fitwevf9qw7evfow edfkasvdf, iuasvdf 100F itasdf ovqwef ovsdfkjvasd u su kfvgaoisdftv aisdgvf asdfo asdfuyg syf qw6egfoausdvfo f Jimbo, oasdf oasudygf osdf o fv.
[summary: The weather is lovely today.]
===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/
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--- Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Only moderate-level in english, and loosing huge
time
to say most things two times, I think I will more
and
more send google translations though.
You're doing just fine in english.
Don't worry about translation. just put a one sentence summary so that those that don' speak french can at least see what it is, and so they can request a translation.
Oki; good idea...
like this:
Dlfkjashdlkj lkjah sdlfk jgkjgksj ds dfaks ghdfkjwe ofgweyobo werb rfu ouygvef iuydv fioyvs dfkuvs dfkv. Asdfkv aweflasldf qowuefvoausyvdf. Lasvdf kvasvdf vlasdflyavd Wikipedia fitwevf9qw7evfow edfkasvdf, iuasvdf 100F itasdf ovqwef ovsdfkjvasd u su kfvgaoisdftv aisdgvf asdfo asdfuyg syf qw6egfoausdvfo f Jimbo, oasdf oasudygf osdf o fv.
[summary: The weather is lovely today.]
Hummmm, and how did Jimbo came in a discussion about weather ??? ;-)
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Anthere-
I would not *exactly* call public mails to a list with probably over 100 registered users, tracked by Google, "semi-private exchanges" :-)
How many of our readers speak French? How about Chinese, or Croatian? The smaller the number, the more private the conversation. With French, I'd say it is at least semi-private.
First, unless that recently changed, this *public* list is *multilingual. We do not need authorisation to write another language than english here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mailing_lists
"Posting in languages other than English is allowed, but English is preferred as it will reach the most diverse audience." This has always been my understanding of the way we want things to be.
The purpose of making the list multilingual is not to give people a loophole to have semi-private conversations, nor is it to somehow prove to ourselves how multilingual we are, and we certainly don't need a "French/ Russian/Esperanto post of the week" to remind us. The purpose of making the project-wide lists multilingual is to allow people to have discussions who otherwise could not. Such discussions can remain semi-private, if there is good reason for them to be so (e.g. people have difficulties speaking English and the matter is primary of interest to a handful of people), but in general, we should strive to either translate posts in both directions and thereby allow *open* communication, or to move discussions to e-mail or talk pages.
English is the most diversely spoken language in the world. It is the most widely learned second language and the second most widely spoken first language. Last but not least, it is the most widely spoken language on the Internet. Schools, the diminishing role of nation-states (EU etc.) and globalization further accelerate this development.
Using English is therefore the most friendly and internationalist approach possible. Of course many people dislike English for one reason or another, mainly because they associate it with a certain culture. But the best way to dissociate English from one particular culture is to use it.
Regards,
Erik
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
How many of our readers speak French? How about Chinese, or Croatian? The smaller the number, the more private the conversation. With French, I'd say it is at least semi-private.
If people don't want to speak in English I don't see why that is a problem. Others who are interested will use a free online translator and those who are not can just ignore the thread.
It is their choice to limit their audience and thus the power of their messages. So what if they do?
-- mav
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Sustained. There's no point og getting silly here. J'ai bien le droit aussi de parler à ceux qui parlent français sur une liste qui se dédie à une Fondation à objet planétaire et je jure d'utiliser Google ou BabelFish le jour où un wikipédien chinois écrira en chinois sur foundation-l@wikimedia.org ... et que je voudrais savoir de quoi il cause ...
Jean-Christophe Chazalette aka villy
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Mayer" maveric149@yahoo.com To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Communs
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
How many of our readers speak French? How about Chinese, or Croatian?
The
smaller the number, the more private the conversation. With French, I'd say it is at least semi-private.
If people don't want to speak in English I don't see why that is a
problem.
Others who are interested will use a free online translator and those who
are
not can just ignore the thread.
It is their choice to limit their audience and thus the power of their messages. So what if they do?
-- mav
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--- Jean-Christophe Chazalette jean-christophe.chazalette@laposte.net wrote:
Sustained. There's no point og getting silly here. J'ai bien le droit aussi de parler � ceux qui parlent fran�ais sur une liste qui se d�die � une Fondation � objet plan�taire et je jure d'utiliser Google ou BabelFish le jour o� un wikip�dien chinois �crira en chinois sur foundation-l@wikimedia.org ... et que je voudrais savoir de quoi il cause ...
Et j'emploierai Google ou BabelFish trop quand un wikip�dien chinois, russe, ou japonais �crit en leur propre langue sur cette liste.
I hope nothing was lost in http://translate.google.com/translate_t
--mav
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This is not exactly good French but fully understandable ;-)
JC aka Aurevilly (villy)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Mayer" maveric149@yahoo.com To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" foundation-l@wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:09 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikimedia Communs
--- Jean-Christophe Chazalette jean-christophe.chazalette@laposte.net
wrote:
Sustained. There's no point og getting silly here. J'ai bien le droit
aussi
de parler à ceux qui parlent français sur une liste qui se dédie à une Fondation à objet planétaire et je jure d'utiliser Google ou BabelFish
le
jour où un wikipédien chinois écrira en chinois sur foundation-l@wikimedia.org ... et que je voudrais savoir de quoi il
cause
...
Et j'emploierai Google ou BabelFish trop quand un wikipédien chinois,
russe, ou
japonais écrit en leur propre langue sur cette liste.
I hope nothing was lost in http://translate.google.com/translate_t
--mav
Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Jean-Christophe Chazalette jean-christophe.chazalette@laposte.net wrote:
Sustained. There's no point og getting silly here.
J'ai bien le droit aussi
de parler � ceux qui parlent fran�ais sur une
liste qui se d�die � une
Fondation � objet plan�taire et je jure d'utiliser
Google ou BabelFish le
jour o� un wikip�dien chinois �crira en chinois
sur
foundation-l@wikimedia.org ... et que je
voudrais savoir de quoi il cause
...
Et j'emploierai Google ou BabelFish trop quand un wikip�dien chinois, russe, ou japonais �crit en leur propre langue sur cette liste.
I hope nothing was lost in http://translate.google.com/translate_t
--mav
That was perfect Mav :-)
By the way, was not there an old project aiming at translation at least 2 years ago ?
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--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
Et j'emploierai Google ou BabelFish trop quand un wikip�dien chinois, russe, ou japonais �crit en leur propre langue sur cette liste.
I hope nothing was lost in http://translate.google.com/translate_t
--mav
That was perfect Mav :-)
Thanks - but all the credit should go to Google translator (which does a great job). Perhaps including a link to Google translator or BableFish on non-English posts will solve this problem. Then people can feel more comfortable posting in their native language and others will still be able to understand them.
By the way, was not there an old project aiming at translation at least 2 years ago ?
Yep http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Machine_Translation_Project
Although the wiki is not available right now...
Machine translation has come a long way since that idea was first put forward for Wikipedia. We may want to look at the idea again. A special:translate function might be a nice tool to have - that way humans would control the process on an article by article basis (correcting any errors that result).
If done correctly, the result should be no worse than copyedited and error-checked EB 1911-derived articles (many of which are pretty good).
-- mav
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--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
That was perfect Mav :-)
Thanks - but all the credit should go to Google translator (which does a great job). Perhaps including a link to Google translator or BableFish on non-English posts will solve this problem. Then people can feel more comfortable posting in their native language and others will still be able to understand them.
Or could put directly a google translation in the post ?
By the way, was not there an old project aiming at translation at least 2 years ago ?
Yep
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Machine_Translation_Project
Although the wiki is not available right now...
Machine translation has come a long way since that idea was first put forward for Wikipedia. We may want to look at the idea again. A special:translate function might be a nice tool to have - that way humans would control the process on an article by article basis (correcting any errors that result).
If done correctly, the result should be no worse than copyedited and error-checked EB 1911-derived articles (many of which are pretty good).
-- mav
Hmmm, you know what would be great ?
Imagine...
You go to a polish article (for a change), one not covered by your pedia. You click on a little link "EditTranslate". Enter a new title for your new (own language) article. A window open in your own wikipedia, with the new title, containing automatically the machine-translated text. Plus, you have a handy tool bar, where you may enter some of the words in original or new language and where you get information from Wiktionary...translations if possible, and definitions of this word. Upon time, I am sure the capacity of wiktionary to define and translate words will be quite good, and might be a useful add-on to google translation (which are not always satisfying).
I am not sure I am clear here, but imho, there should be at any time, on wikipedia, a sort of search box where we could quickly enter a word of any wikipedia article, a word we do not understand well, and get immediately definition and translation in other languages.
Anyway...
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--- Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Imagine...
You go to a polish article (for a change), one not covered by your pedia. You click on a little link "EditTranslate". Enter a new title for your new (own language) article. A window open in your own wikipedia, with the new title, containing automatically the machine-translated text. Plus, you have a handy tool bar, where you may enter some of the words in original or new language and where you get information from Wiktionary...translations if possible, and definitions of this word. Upon time, I am sure the capacity of wiktionary to define and translate words will be quite good, and might be a useful add-on to google translation (which are not always satisfying).
I am not sure I am clear here, but imho, there should be at any time, on wikipedia, a sort of search box where we could quickly enter a word of any wikipedia article, a word we do not understand well, and get immediately definition and translation in other languages.
Yes - all that would be great.
--mav
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Daniel-
If people don't want to speak in English I don't see why that is a problem.
I have nothing against the use of other languages for the purpose of better understanding. I have something against it if the purpose is, or appears to be, the deliberate exclusion of others. See my response to Michael for a detailed argument.
Regards,
Erik
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
Daniel-
If people don't want to speak in English I don't see why that is
a problem.
I have nothing against the use of other languages for the purpose of better understanding. I have something against it if the purpose is, or appears to be, the deliberate exclusion of others.
Humm, since this list is public and archived, it's doubtful that this is the case.
Even if it is, you do like you do in a bar and go off to the redhead who's been looking at you and ask: "Do you speak Russian?"
Oh, hummm. anyways ;)
===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/
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Quoting Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com:
Second, it is good to remind users of that list of this fact. When we use english all the time, people are lead to believe it is *mandatory* to write in english here. It is not
I'll add that comments stating it is inappropriate to write in french on a multilingual list, and requesting an explanation, do not exactly help asserting the fact this mailing list *is* multilingual.
Kala pou mas to thhmises! Tha allaxo ti glossa mou gia na milame oloi se diaforetikes glosses. =]
-Mark
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delirium@hackish.org a e'crit:
Quoting Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com:
Second, it is good to remind users of that list of this fact. When we use english all the time, people are lead to believe it is *mandatory* to write in english here. It is not
I'll add that comments stating it is inappropriate to write in french on a multilingual list, and requesting an explanation, do not exactly help asserting the fact this mailing list *is* multilingual.
Kala pou mas to thhmises! Tha allaxo ti glossa mou gia na milame oloi se diaforetikes glosses. =]
-Mark
Oui. Mais cela aide de mentionner quel est le language d'origine tout de me^m
....
--- Michael Snow wikipedia@earthlink.net wrote:
C'est bien de voir que tout au moins quelqu'un se souvient de la liste correcte pour discuter ces sujets. Est-ce que tous les autres oublient parce que en ce moment Jimbo ne re�oit pas les messages de cette liste-ci ?
--Michel Neige
Jimbo est certainement abonn� � cette liste, mais il y a des confusions dans les listes ces temps ci :-(
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