Anthere wrote:
Erik Moeller wrote:
On 6/4/06, Troy Hunter troyhunter0@lycos.com wrote:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution_committee_conduct
With regard to this resolution in particular, which tried to guarantee a minimal level of openness in the committees:
- Why was it rejected -- what were the arguments against it? Who voted
against it?
- Is any similar resolution planned for the future?
Erik
Tim and Michael against. Angela and I for. Jimbo abstained.
This is a violation of Jimmy's promise to never vote against Anthere and Angela except on matters of grave importance. The September 2004 Wikimedia Quarto states:
"To date, Tim and Michael have played a minimal part in board discussion and decisions, and there is no plan to change this. In order to ensure that the community voice is real, Jimbo has pledged, as a matter of convention, never to vote against Angela and Anthere, unless he feels that it is an issue of an absolutely fundamental change of direction for the project -- which is not likely to happen, since Angela, Anthere and Jimbo share the essential values of the community and the project. So as a practical matter, power is in the hands of the two democratically elected board members on most issues, and Jimbo defers to that."
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WQ/1
Restated in February 2005:
"Angela and Anthere are unbelievably good as board members, and we have a casual agreement between us that if the two of them ever vote in one direction, I will defer to them, so that it does not matter how Tim and Michael vote. The only exception I would make to this is if they wanted something that I felt endangered us in some very extreme way -- but this is basically impossible because they are so good at what they do."
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.misc/20359
and in April 2005:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/2922
Jimmy wrote:
The first resolution was something that we discussed at the board level but never quite came to a firm conclusion. I think that's one which we will revisit at some point in the future. The general idea was to make sure that committees not engage in excessive secrecy, which is a good idea, but at the same time, we did not want to encumber them with a lot of paranoia that they have to announce evertything all the time. Different board members had different perspectives on how to get those central points across.
Yes, different board members had different perspectives. That's to be expected, they come from different backgrounds. Some of them represent the community, some do not. But the elected members were not arguing for an "absolutely fundamental change of direction", were they?
On 6/4/06, Troy Hunter troyhunter0@lycos.com wrote:
Anthere wrote:
Tim and Michael against. Angela and I for. Jimbo abstained.
This is a violation of Jimmy's promise to never vote against Anthere and Angela except on matters of grave importance. The September 2004 Wikimedia Quarto states:
"To date, Tim and Michael have played a minimal part in board discussion and decisions, and there is no plan to change this. In order to ensure that the community voice is real, Jimbo has pledged, as a matter of convention, never to vote against Angela and Anthere, unless he feels that it is an issue of an absolutely fundamental change of direction for the project -- which is not likely to happen, since Angela, Anthere and Jimbo share the essential values of the community and the project. So as a practical matter, power is in the hands of the two democratically elected board members on most issues, and Jimbo defers to that."
I don't really see the argument, here. Abstention from a vote in favor of others is the usual manner of "deferring" in any pseudo-democratic system, and certainly doesn't qualify as "voting against" anyone.
Austin
Troy Hunter wrote:
Anthere wrote:
Erik Moeller wrote:
On 6/4/06, Troy Hunter troyhunter0@lycos.com wrote:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution_committee_conduct
With regard to this resolution in particular, which tried to guarantee a minimal level of openness in the committees:
- Why was it rejected -- what were the arguments against it? Who voted
against it?
- Is any similar resolution planned for the future?
Erik
Tim and Michael against. Angela and I for. Jimbo abstained.
This is a violation of Jimmy's promise to never vote against Anthere and Angela except on matters of grave importance. The September 2004 Wikimedia Quarto states:
"To date, Tim and Michael have played a minimal part in board discussion and decisions, and there is no plan to change this. In order to ensure that the community voice is real, Jimbo has pledged, as a matter of convention, never to vote against Angela and Anthere, unless he feels that it is an issue of an absolutely fundamental change of direction for the project -- which is not likely to happen, since Angela, Anthere and Jimbo share the essential values of the community and the project. So as a practical matter, power is in the hands of the two democratically elected board members on most issues, and Jimbo defers to that."
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WQ/1
Restated in February 2005:
"Angela and Anthere are unbelievably good as board members, and we have a casual agreement between us that if the two of them ever vote in one direction, I will defer to them, so that it does not matter how Tim and Michael vote. The only exception I would make to this is if they wanted something that I felt endangered us in some very extreme way -- but this is basically impossible because they are so good at what they do."
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.misc/20359
and in April 2005:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/2922
Jimmy wrote:
The first resolution was something that we discussed at the board level but never quite came to a firm conclusion. I think that's one which we will revisit at some point in the future. The general idea was to make sure that committees not engage in excessive secrecy, which is a good idea, but at the same time, we did not want to encumber them with a lot of paranoia that they have to announce evertything all the time. Different board members had different perspectives on how to get those central points across.
Yes, different board members had different perspectives. That's to be expected, they come from different backgrounds. Some of them represent the community, some do not. But the elected members were not arguing for an "absolutely fundamental change of direction", were they?
I did not see any problem whatsoever in Jimbo abstaining himself in this vote.
I also realised afterwards that both Tim and Michael comments absolutely made sense and that such a resolution could not really fit, because each committee must organise itself and create its own rules. I support the underlying concepts behind the resolution, but also recognise that the resolution in itself was making all this a bit too much "one shoe fits all".
Angela and I made a mistake here. We should have allowed more time for discussion beforehand. We might have all come to a phrasing that would have been acceptable to all of us. Note that another version of this resolution might be proposed again in the future. If there is not till now, it may be because we finally did not see the need for it ? Or because we thought these points could be achieved differently ? Or because we did not have the time and energy ?
One point should be stressed. It is important that resolutions are discussed and re-discussed, so that we try to have it in the voting stage in the most satisfactory way for most of us. We sometimes fail to do that, either because a decision might appear urgent, or because we think that a resolution at some point is fine for all of us whilst it is not. We are not perfect ;-)
ant
PS : generally, I think all committees will grow in avoiding the trap of excessive and unreasonable secrecy.
Anthere wrote:
I did not see any problem whatsoever in Jimbo abstaining himself in this vote.
Thank you. I did not think of it as voting against Angela and Anthere.
I also realised afterwards that both Tim and Michael comments absolutely made sense and that such a resolution could not really fit, because each committee must organise itself and create its own rules. I support the underlying concepts behind the resolution, but also recognise that the resolution in itself was making all this a bit too much "one shoe fits all".
Me too. My feeling is that another resolution in this area is possible and desirable, but it is tricky to word in a way that is not vague "feel good" sentiments, but which also does not try to micromanage what committees decide for themselves.
PS : generally, I think all committees will grow in avoiding the trap of excessive and unreasonable secrecy.
And in part, this is not about a resolution, of course, but about day to day practices and cultural norms, which need to be adjusted over time in response to actual problems. (And there will be some! There always are...)
--Jimbo
Anthere wrote:
Tim and Michael against. Angela and I for. Jimbo abstained.
Troy Hunter wrote:
This is a violation of Jimmy's promise to never vote against Anthere and Angela except on matters of grave importance.
Not at all. I consider this issue to still be a live issue, and I am in agreement with the spirit of the resolution. The problems with it were and remain purely technical, and I am confident that a compromise version can be reached.
The legal opinion that we got on the resolution is as follows: "My legal opinion is that the resolution as stated does not accomplish what its drafters would otherwise intend, and that it will create problems in the future if relied upon."
Therefore, a rewrite is in order.
--Jimbo
Troy Hunter wrote:
Anthere wrote:
Erik Moeller wrote:
On 6/4/06, Troy Hunter troyhunter0@lycos.com wrote:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution_committee_conduct
With regard to this resolution in particular, which tried to guarantee a minimal level of openness in the committees:
- Why was it rejected -- what were the arguments against it? Who voted
against it?
- Is any similar resolution planned for the future?
Erik
Tim and Michael against. Angela and I for. Jimbo abstained.
This is a violation of Jimmy's promise to never vote against Anthere and Angela except on matters of grave importance. The September 2004 Wikimedia Quarto states:
"To date, Tim and Michael have played a minimal part in board discussion and decisions, and there is no plan to change this. In order to ensure that the community voice is real, Jimbo has pledged, as a matter of convention, never to vote against Angela and Anthere, unless he feels that it is an issue of an absolutely fundamental change of direction for the project -- which is not likely to happen, since Angela, Anthere and Jimbo share the essential values of the community and the project. So as a practical matter, power is in the hands of the two democratically elected board members on most issues, and Jimbo defers to that."
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WQ/1
Restated in February 2005:
"Angela and Anthere are unbelievably good as board members, and we have a casual agreement between us that if the two of them ever vote in one direction, I will defer to them, so that it does not matter how Tim and Michael vote. The only exception I would make to this is if they wanted something that I felt endangered us in some very extreme way -- but this is basically impossible because they are so good at what they do."
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.misc/20359
and in April 2005:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation/2922
Jimmy wrote:
The first resolution was something that we discussed at the board level but never quite came to a firm conclusion. I think that's one which we will revisit at some point in the future. The general idea was to make sure that committees not engage in excessive secrecy, which is a good idea, but at the same time, we did not want to encumber them with a lot of paranoia that they have to announce evertything all the time. Different board members had different perspectives on how to get those central points across.
Yes, different board members had different perspectives. That's to be expected, they come from different backgrounds. Some of them represent the community, some do not. But the elected members were not arguing for an "absolutely fundamental change of direction", were they?
The problem is that the optics of the situation are all wrong. There is a situation where a resolution in favour of ensuring openness is apparently rejected by the two appointed directors and supported by the two elected. That the wording could be improved is understandable, and attaching priority to a reworded resolution would go far to dispel the cynicism that the current situation has generated.
Ec
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org