From our experience, is just the opposite: Wikipedia is not asking any extra step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even if you are underage. Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were not intended for that. The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so providing them a better place, thought for them (as our strategic direction says) is better that not providing at all.

If you want to know more about Txikipedia, contact us, please.

Galder ________________________________ From: Neurodivergent Netizen idoh.idreamofhorses@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 2:59 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia project is the COPPA, and other similar laws both in the US and elsewhere that could potentially increase civil liability. Another hurdle is that America is very aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks when children are involved in websites. Then you add in the fact that kids are likely to continue editing Wikipedia instead of Kidipedia, and it’s not worth the extra effort. This effort would include hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a team of people for just Kidipedia, along with the background checks and identity verification needed. None of that are obstacles that aren’t in the way of kids editing the existing projects.

I predict a WMF-affiliated kidipedia would largely be abandoned quite quickly.

From, I dream of horses She/her

On Jun 21, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Mathias Damour <mathias.damour@gmx.frmailto:mathias.damour@gmx.fr> wrote:

Hi Ziko, Samuel and everybody,

De: "Ziko van Dijk" <zvandijk@gmail.commailto:zvandijk@gmail.com> Hello Samuel,

Thank you for your mail. I would like to see more attention from the Wikimedia movement for the target group children age ca. 8-14.

I am afraid there is no real comprehensive study about the best way to provide encyclopedic wiki content to children, or even to involve them in the content creation.

In general, children are a very special and vulnerable group. This can become problematic when they are directly involved on a platform, and when it comes to the content itself.

And yet it works well with Vikidia, which has been active for more than 15 years, writing an average of 6 articles par day since the beginning ! There is some blog posts that elaborate how it works, what it implies and what it means to let a multi-age community work together, unfortunatly only in french (except one in english): https://www.wikimedia.fr/author/astirmays/ My english is certainly not good enought to translate them properly, yet I would be glad to get some help to do so or to find a way to get them translated (anybody tell me if you wish to help translating 2 or 3 of theses posts !) One also reviews some of the commons objections to such a project and how we adress them.

Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.commailto:meta.sj@gmail.com> schrieb am Mo. 20. Juni 2022 um 02:25:

More languages should try that. a) simple skin hack, b) loving and lovely idea, c) more compelling to me than the standalone kidipedia projects :) Anyway, thanks for improving my weekend, Txikipedians. SJ

Actually when you have a "standalone kidipedia project", it has the great benefit to allow to have its own community, and not to be marginalized inside a much bigger project. Both young readers and young editors love it. I guess that the choice may depend on the size of the "mother" Wikipedia and the potential community to gather on this project.

Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]] _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

In fact, we’ve pretty much concluded that disclosing a minor editors age publicly, or to more people than necessary, would decrease their safety. Requiring age verification may not disclose the childs’ age publicly, but it would expose their age to more people. One would hope these people have secure accounts, but that’s difficult to impossible to enforce. It would be more ideal if no one knew the exact age of minor editors (“minor” being defined as 15 and under at the moment), so accidental exposure is impossible.

I've realized that I'm having trouble reconciling a minors right to privacy while proving that they are, in fact, minors.

On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 5:04 AM Neurodivergent Netizen < idoh.idreamofhorses@gmail.com> wrote:

Wikipedia is not asking any extra step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even if you are underage.

In fact, we’ve pretty much concluded that disclosing a minor editors age publicly, or to more people than necessary, would decrease their safety. Requiring age verification may not disclose the childs’ age publicly, but it would expose their age to more people. One would hope these people have secure accounts, but that’s difficult to impossible to enforce. It would be more ideal if no one knew the exact age of minor editors (“minor” being defined as 15 and under at the moment), so accidental exposure is impossible.

Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were not intended for that.

I’d like to disclaim that I think pornographic pictures on Commons is a genuine issue, and we need to take steps to decrease the amount of them. However, one controversy we run into is the definition of “adult content,” and also “appropriate for teenagers but not for children.” Even with porn, you kind of know it when you see it but you can’t *quite* define it, particularly when there might be an academic need to visually depict or describe sexual acts or human anatomy (like, for example, on Wikipedia). This makes filtration, even if installed on a computer instead of a website, problematic.

I’ll respond to your “there’s no advice” below.

The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so providing them a better place, thought for them (as our strategic direction says) is better that not providing at all.

We’ve actually think of children quite a bit on Wikipedia. Hence, my last few paragraphs, which have been partially informed by discussions with other Wikimedians. If there’s any doubt, here are multiple links for proof:

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protecting_children%27s_privacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protecting_children's_privacy *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Guidance_for_younger_editors *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Advice_for_parents

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Protecting_children's_privacy

And that’s just from one search. I’m sure I can find other essays in more obscure parts of Wikipedia, but I think six essays/policy/guideline pages is quite enough. :-)

From, I dream of horses She/her

On Jun 22, 2022, at 3:37 AM, Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder158@hotmail.com> wrote:

From our experience, is just the opposite: Wikipedia is not asking any extra step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even if you are underage. Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were not intended for that. The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so providing them a better place, thought for them (as our strategic direction says) is better that not providing at all.

If you want to know more about Txikipedia, contact us, please.

Galder

*From:* Neurodivergent Netizen idoh.idreamofhorses@gmail.com *Sent:* Wednesday, June 22, 2022 2:59 AM *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia project is the COPPA, and other similar laws both in the US and elsewhere that could potentially increase civil liability. Another hurdle is that America is very aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks when children are involved in websites. Then you add in the fact that kids are likely to continue editing Wikipedia instead of Kidipedia, and it’s not worth the extra effort. This effort would include hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a team of people for just Kidipedia, along with the background checks and identity verification needed. None of that are obstacles that aren’t in the way of kids editing the existing projects.

I predict a WMF-affiliated kidipedia would largely be abandoned quite quickly.

From, I dream of horses She/her

On Jun 21, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Mathias Damour mathias.damour@gmx.fr wrote:

Hi Ziko, Samuel and everybody,

*De:* "Ziko van Dijk" zvandijk@gmail.com Hello Samuel,

Thank you for your mail. I would like to see more attention from the Wikimedia movement for the target group children age ca. 8-14.

I am afraid there is no real comprehensive study about the best way to provide encyclopedic wiki content to children, or even to involve them in the content creation.

In general, children are a very special and vulnerable group. This can become problematic when they are directly involved on a platform, and when it comes to the content itself.

And yet it works well with Vikidia, which has been active for more than 15 years, writing an average of 6 articles par day since the beginning ! There is some blog posts that elaborate how it works, what it implies and what it means to let a multi-age community work together, unfortunatly only in french (except one in english): https://www.wikimedia.fr/author/astirmays/ My english is certainly not good enought to translate them properly, yet I would be glad to get some help to do so or to find a way to get them translated (anybody tell me if you wish to help translating 2 or 3 of theses posts !) One also reviews some of the commons objections to such a project and how we adress them.

Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com schrieb am Mo. 20. Juni 2022 um 02:25:

More languages should try that. a) simple skin hack, b) loving and lovely idea, c) more compelling to me than the standalone kidipedia projects :) Anyway, thanks for improving my weekend, Txikipedians. SJ

Actually when you have a "standalone kidipedia project", it has the great benefit to allow to have its own community, and not to be marginalized inside a much bigger project. Both young readers and young editors love it. I guess that the choice may depend on the size of the "mother" Wikipedia and the potential community to gather on this project.

Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]] _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

---

Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

Hello, At the moment I am working on a document that extensively explains how we work on the Klexikon. If someone is interested, please send me a private message. The document is not really public yet. :-) Kind regards Ziko https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Klexikon

Am Mi., 22. Juni 2022 um 19:27 Uhr schrieb Mathias Damour mathias.damour@gmx.fr:

Hi,

De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" idoh.idreamofhorses@gmail.com I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia project is the COPPA, and other similar laws both in the US and elsewhere that could potentially increase civil liability. Another hurdle is that America is very aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks when children are involved in websites. Then you add in the fact that kids are likely to continue editing Wikipedia instead of Kidipedia, and it’s not worth the extra effort. This effort would include hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a team of people for just Kidipedia, along with the background checks and identity verification needed. None of that are obstacles that aren’t in the way of kids editing the existing projects.

I predict a WMF-affiliated kidipedia would largely be abandoned quite quickly.

You are probably right. I would say COPPA may not be the biggest hurdle, yet the british "UK Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006" is another one, and moreover the fact that "America is very aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks when children are involved in websites" (and I would also say that "America" weight more the right of parents to control what is taught to their children and less the right of the children to inform themselves - the latter being upheld by the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which the US didn't ratificate - compared to other countries). We reviewed it on https://en.vikidia.org/wiki/Vikidia:Legal_matters

That wouldn't be a wise choice that WMF host such a wiki if it brings the risk of being legaly attacked on that ground, even for bad reasons and unsuccessfully, whereas it never happened to Vikidia in 15 years (and very few kind of bad buzz like "look what they teach to the children").

You tell about "hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a team of people for just Kidipedia", well, that's quite exactly the point I adressed on this blog post : Vikidia, l’anti-professionnalisation https://www.wikimedia.fr/vikidia-lanti-professionnalisation/ ...to tell that the vision of children needing to be only alongside their closed family and professionals workers - and that it should be the same if a wiki for children is set (that we would need professionnal educators either to write the articles, to design the project or to manage the community or all that together) - did cause much delay to the wiki encyclopedias for children, and how we do otherwise on Vikidia.

Reminder, the Wikikids project was developped on this page and subpages : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids

Envoyé: mercredi 22 juin 2022 à 12:37 De: "Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga" galder158@hotmail.com À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia From our experience, is just the opposite: Wikipedia is not asking any extra step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even if you are underage. Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and they can find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that, nor filters at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were not intended for that. The place is open, and we have massive visits from children, so providing them a better place, thought for them (as our strategic direction says) is better that not providing at all.

I can only agree!

Mathias Damour [[User:Astirmays]] _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org