The problem of knowledge is much older than Wikipedia. It is part of the
reason that so many intelligent people belive things that are "simply not
so".
On 11 Aug 2017 11:52, "Rogol Domedonfors" <domedonfors(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Is it not rather late to be discussing what
"knowledge" might be, towards
the end of the second decade of a mission to bring the sum of human
knowledge to the world, and in the middle of a major effort to determine
the strategy of the movement into its third and fourth decades? Surely by
now there is a clear, concise and actionable agreed definition of knowledge
that we can point to when people ask what all that money has been and
continues to be raised for? Why not just point to that common position
that everyone has signed up to?
"Rogol"
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:00 PM, John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Information is "facts told, heard, or
discovered" (Oxford) or "knowledge
communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance".
(I
would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge
is good enough for this.)
If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't communicate the
fact, how can there be the information?
Sorry, this does not make sense.
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you
look
> at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and
make
it
possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources
is
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible
format risks the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper
source
> to intense UV light.
>
> There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
> "Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more
> complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part
of a
> multidimensional connection to and in time,
place, and circumstances
by
bringing
it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect
the
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as
communities to address
the
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the
bounds of
culture(language)
from which it originates
On 9 August 2017 at 04:12, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland(a)wikimedia.ca
> wrote:
>
> > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
> >
> > JP
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017, 05:20 John Erling Blad, <jeblad(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
> something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
policies.
> Those are no original research,
verifiability, and neutral point of
view.
> > The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
> rewrite
> > world history to focus on their own local view.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
> culture
> > is
> > > more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the
policies.
>
>
> > On 8 August 2017 at 08:14, John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on
_content_,
> > but
> > > > > there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
> > > > > Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_
that
are
> > > highly
> > > > troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
> > > > Armenian genocide for example.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > to quote, worth a read before even considering policies
being
> > global
> > > > > >
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/
abstract
> >
> > >
> > > > > This article explores the relationship between linguistic
culture
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > preferred standards of presenting information based on
article
> > > > > > > representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary
research
> > analysis
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > number of images, references, internal links, external
links,
> > > words,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > characters, as well as their proportions in Good and
Featured
> > > > articles
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high
diversity
of
> > > approaches
> > > > > and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
demonstrate
> that
> > > > > high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
> > > > shared
> > > > > and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
> determines
> > > > what
> > > > > is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
> encyclopedic
> > > > > entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
> encyclopedic
> > > > > knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but
local
> > and
> > > > very
> > > > > > subjective.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 4 August 2017 at 10:18, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The number of pillars depends on the language
version...
> > > > > > > And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not
seem
to
be
pf
> > much
> > > > > importance
> > > > > Ziko
> > > > >
> > > > > John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com> schrieb am Do. 3. Aug.
2017
um
> > > > 14:42:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Five pillars are moot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
gnangarra(a)gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The moment you have a centralised policy you take
away
the
> > > > ability
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > discuss, makes decisions, and achieve
consensus from
the
> >
> community
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > create the projects. Importantly you create the
opportunity
> > for
> > > > > > banned
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > blocked editors to decide what happens in a
community.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > By having a base set of simple policies in
the
Incubator
> that
> > > are
> > > > > > > > > atuomatically created when a project starts
up you give
> them
> > > the
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > guide
> > > > > > > > > to establishing themselves well before that
project
goes
> > live,
> > > > > ince a
> > > > > > > > > project is live it has to be allowed to
develop its
> > community.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We already have the 5 pillars which are the
basis for
the
> > > > projects,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > meta is not a place that the content
creating community
> > spends
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad
<
> > jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Having centralized core policies would
lessen the
> > maintenance
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > process,
> > > > > > > > > > not increase them.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM,
Strainu <
> > > strainu10(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The core policies should be the
ones pushed by
board
> > > > > resolution,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > those should be the absolute
minimum required to
keep
> the
> > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > safe from a legal POV. Period.
Otherwise, people
with
> little
> > > > > > > > > understanding of small Wikipedias will try
to push
stuff
> > from
> > > > > > en.wp.
> > > > > > > > > > Just recently someone was trying to
have an RFC on
meta
> > on
> > > > all
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > different processes that en.wp has
and ro.wp does
not
>
have,
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > little consideration on whether the
manpower to
> implement,
> > > let
> > > > > > alone
> > > > > > > > > > maintain, these processes exists. No
thank you to
rule
> > > pushing
> > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > local context.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Having a community take a rule from
en.wp is
different,
> > just
> > > as
> > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > > > as some kind of discussion happens
within the
community
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > Even
> > > > > > > > > > > if the rule is really useless or
harmful and the
> > community
> > > > did
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > realize that in the beginning, at
least it can
evolve
> > > differently
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > the English one. Have a centralized
repository and
trying
> to
> > > > change
> > > > > > > > > the rules there by consensus would be much
more
difficult
> > for
> > > > > small
> > > > > > > > > > communities.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Strainu
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling
Blad <
> > > jeblad(a)gmail.com
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > Nearly all Wikipedia projects has
virtually the
same
> > core
> > > > > > content
> > > > > > > > > > > policies,
> > > > > > > > > > > > but with slightly different
wording. Nearly all,
> > because
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > smaller lacks them, and a lot
has outdated or
only
> > > partial
> > > > > > > > policies.
> > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > takes a lot of time to
actually make them and
keep
> them
> > > > > > updated.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Creating and maintaining the
core content
policies
> > should
> > > > not
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > > > that small projects should
invest a lot of time
in,
they
> > > should
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > able to point to existing policies on
Meta. The
central
> > > > > policies
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > localized if necessary.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Checking Meta I find
> > > > > > > > > > > -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/The_no_original_research_
> > > > > > policy
> > > > > > > > > > > -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I can't find anything like
"Verifiability".
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible for Wikimedia
Foundation to
make
> > > some
> > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > > > > policies, and with the option
for local projects
to
> > > refine
> > > > > > those?
> > > > > > > > > > Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > > > with assistance from editors
on Wikipedia?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Lets try to make the policies
accurate, without
"no
> >
> original
> > > > > > > > research"
> > > > > > > > > > > diverging into verifiability of
external sources.
It
> > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > original research in content on
Wikipedia.
Likewise,
at
> > > some
> > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > neutral point of view has become
"do not diverge
from
> > > > > creators
> > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > view"…
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Would this be possible? It
would be really nice
if
>
those
> > > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > > policies
> > > > > > > > > > > pages could be copied to the
individual projects
like
> > > central
> > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > pages,
> > > > > > > > > > > so they would be
"internal" to the projects. Thus
the
> > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > more "ownership" of
them.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing apply to other
meta projects
> (Wikipedia,
> > > > > > > Wikibooks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Wiktionary, etc).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Jeblad
> > > > > > > > > > > >
_______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list,
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> > > > > > > > > President Wikimedia Australia
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