I agree with Strainu's comments above.
I described some issues with adopting policies and ill-fitting policies
under the Community Governance capacity page, in the Community Capacity
Development program:
A.
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 5:09 PM Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you look
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and make
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources is
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper source
to intense UV light.
There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
"Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part of a
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances by
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect the
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address the
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of culture(language)
from which it originates
On 9 August 2017 at 04:12, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbeland(a)wikimedia.ca>
wrote:
Verifiability can be very different. For example
oral sources.
JP
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017, 05:20 John Erling Blad, <jeblad(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
> something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
policies.
> Those are no original research,
verifiability, and neutral point of
view.
The one
most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
rewrite
world history to focus on their own local view.
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
culture
> is
> > more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
> >
> > On 8 August 2017 at 08:14, John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_,
but
> > > there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
> > > Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that
are
>
highly
> > troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
> > Armenian genocide for example.
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Gnangarra <gnangarra(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being
global
> > >
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
> > >
> > > This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture
and
> the
> > > > preferred standards of presenting information based on article
> > > > representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
analysis
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > number of images, references, internal links, external links,
> words,
> > > and
> > > > > characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
> > articles
> > > on
> > > > > the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
> > > approaches
> > > > > and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
demonstrate
that
> > > > high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
> > > > shared
> > > > > and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
> determines
> > > > what
> > > > > is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
> encyclopedic
> > > > > entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
> encyclopedic
> > > > > knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but
local
and
> > very
> > > > subjective.
> > > >
> > >
> > > On 4 August 2017 at 10:18, Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > The number of pillars depends on the language version...
> > > > And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be
pf
> > much
> > > > > importance
> > > > > Ziko
> > > > >
> > > > > John Erling Blad <jeblad(a)gmail.com> schrieb am Do. 3. Aug.
2017
um
> > > > 14:42:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Five pillars are moot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
gnangarra(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
> ability
> > to
> > > > > > discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
> community
> > > that
> > > > > > create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity
for
> > > > banned
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > blocked editors to decide what happens in a
community.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > By having a base set of simple policies in the
Incubator
that
> are
> > > > > > > atuomatically created when a project starts up you
give
them
the
> > best
> > > > > guide
> > > > > > to establishing themselves well before that project goes
live,
> > ince a
> > > > > > project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
> projects,
> > > but
> > > > > > meta is not a place that the content creating community
spends
a
> > lot
> > > of
> > > > > > time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
jeblad(a)gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
> > and
> > > > > > > process,
> > > > > > > > not increase them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
> strainu10(a)gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The core policies should be the ones pushed
by board
> > > resolution,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > those should be the absolute minimum
required to keep
the
> > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise,
people with
> little
> > > > > > > > > understanding of small Wikipedias will try
to push
stuff
from
> > > > en.wp.
> > > > > > > > Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC
on meta
on
> all
> > > the
> > > > > > > > different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does
not
have,
> > with
> > > > > > > > little consideration on whether the manpower to
implement,
let
> > > alone
> > > > > > > maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to
rule
pushing
> > > > without
> > > > > > > local context.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Having a community take a rule from en.wp is
different,
just
as
> > > long
> > > > > > > as some kind of discussion happens within the
community
about
> > it.
> > > > > Even
> > > > > > > > if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
community
> > did
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > > realize that in the beginning, at least it
can evolve
> > > differently
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > the English one. Have a centralized
repository and
trying
> to
> > > > change
> > > > > > > > > the rules there by consensus would be much
more
difficult
for
> > > small
> > > > > > > > communities.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Strainu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
> jeblad(a)gmail.com
> > >:
> > > > > > > > > Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually
the same
core
> > > content
> > > > > > > > policies,
> > > > > > > > > but with slightly different wording. Nearly
all,
because
> a
> > > lot
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > smaller lacks them, and a lot has
outdated or only
> partial
> > > > > > policies.
> > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > takes a lot of time to actually make
them and keep
them
> >
> updated.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Creating and maintaining the core content
policies
should
> not
> > > be
> > > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > that small projects should invest a lot of
time in,
they
> > > should
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > able to point to existing policies on
Meta. The
central
> >
> policies
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > localized if necessary.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Checking Meta I find
> > > > > > > > > -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/The_no_original_research_
> > > > policy
> > > > > > > > > -
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I can't find anything like
"Verifiability".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible for Wikimedia
Foundation to make
> some
> > > > sound
> > > > > > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > > policies, and with the option for local
projects to
> refine
> > > > those?
> > > > > > > > Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > with assistance from editors on
Wikipedia?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Lets try to make the policies accurate,
without "no
> > original
> > > > > > > research"
> > > > > > > > > > diverging into verifiability of
external sources. It
> should
> > > be
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > original research in content on
Wikipedia. Likewise,
at
>
some
> > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > neutral point of view has become "do
not diverge from
> > creators
> > > > > point
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > view"…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Would this be possible? It would be really
nice if
those
> > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > policies
> > > > > > > > > > pages could be copied to the individual
projects like
> > central
> > > > > user
> > > > > > > > pages,
> > > > > > > > > > so they would be "internal"
to the projects. Thus the
> > > projects
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > more "ownership" of them.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The same thing apply to other meta
projects
(Wikipedia,
> > > > > Wikibooks,
> > > > > > > > > > Wiktionary, etc).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jeblad
> > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > --
> > > > > > GN.
> > > > > > President Wikimedia Australia
> > > > > > WMAU:
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