Wikimedia-l August 2012

wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org

115 participants
90 discussions

Tech-related lists you might not know about
by Sumana Harihareswara 24 Aug '12

24 Aug '12

I've just updated https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Overview#Mediawiki_and_techni… . Sorry for the spam, but you may want to skim that and see whether there are lists there you should join. I especially want to single out: mediawiki-i18n -- localisation and internationalisation wikitech-ambassadors analytics wikitext-l -- the new Visual Editor & parser wikidata-l -- Sumana Harihareswara Engineering Community Manager Wikimedia Foundation

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Introducing a website that creates timelines out of Wikipedia articles
by Jeff Roehl 24 Aug '12

24 Aug '12

Please navigate to (in Chrome, Safari or Opera, as we are working out bugs in the other browsers): http://wikitimelines.net/ First let me say, I consider Wikipedia to be a world treasure. And I consider you, Wikipedians, to be the smartest people in the world. Having said that, our goal is to take historically based information and make it presentable contemporaneously. Wikitimelines is our attempt to take a Wikipedia article (or any text) and create a visually compelling timeline out of its content. This is initially done without human intervention, which takes +- 60 seconds depending on the size of the article. After the article is initially processed it can be retrieved in a few seconds. After this, users are permitted and encouraged to manipulate and configure the timeline in numerous ways, to make it more informative and instructive. The timeline may be included in any Wikipedia article by including the following sample code widget: <script src="http://wikitimelines.net/H/P/HP40C1A2X.js" type="text/javascript"></script> ><div id="HP40C1A2X"></div>Our website is a beta (testing) website for now, so not everything is working. Be patient with us, as we work through the beta process. We just want to give, everybody who is interested, a look at what we have been working on over the last several months. Thanks Jeff Roehl jroehl2(a)yahoo.com (818) 912-7530

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24 Aug '12

X rays are never created with the primary purpose of publication in mind. That would be unethical (especially as X rays can cause harm). They are created with the primary intent of helping patients. Interesting ones are than collected after the fact and published by people involved in the persons care. After all identifying information is removed concerns of patient confidentiality are no longer an issue (we have both publications on ethics and the advice of legal counsel here in Canada to support this concern thus do not need to discuss it further). James Heilman On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:39 AM, <wikimedia-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org>wrote: > Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to > wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > wikimedia-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > wikimedia-l-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Copyright on Xrays (Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com) > 2. Re: Copyright on Xrays (Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com) > 3. Re: Copyright on Xrays (Anthony) > 4. Re: Copyright on Xrays (Anthony) > 5. Re: Copyright on Xrays (Anthony) > 6. Re: Copyright on Xrays (Anthony) > 7. Re: Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,... (James Heilman) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:20:59 -0500 > From: Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays > Message-ID: <67BECCE0-3A2C-4F4C-88C4-E1D38D0FF46F(a)yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > On Aug 22, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:14 AM, <Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >> I really doubt non-artistic works are copyrighted as a general rule > anywhere > > > > I'm not sure what you mean by "non-artistic", but if you mean "purely > > utilitarian", as that term is interpreted by the court, then this is a > > good point. > > > > I was going to suggest UK, but a quick search suggests that you > > *can't* copyright purely "utilitarian" works in the UK. > > > > (I wouldn't use the term "non-artistic" though. There are plenty of > > works that are copyrighted in the US and all over that I wouldn't > > consider "art", and while an argument could be made that such works > > shouldn't be copyrightable, court precedent is clearly adverse to that > > argument.), > > I believe artistic/non-artistic is accurate for images. Technically it is > artistic, literary, dramatic, or musical works. The rules can change a bit > as you change mediums, so when we are talking about an image I am talking > about copyright wrt to images. > > > > >> Now clearly being able to judge that X is a utilitarian work is the > more normal problem with > >> this argument and why it is seldom used. Diagnostic images are one of > the few clear-cut > >> situations. > > > > How do you distinguish whether or not it is a "diagnostic image", and > > what makes it clear-cut? > > > > Even using the term "utilitarian" rather than "artistic" I can still > > come up with a large number of examples of things which seem pretty > > "clear-cut" as "utilitarian" to me, but yet which receive copyright > > protection. gzip, for instance. > > I actually expanded on this at the end of my last email. If that doesn't > clarify, ask again and explain what gzip is. > > > >> And even if it is only the US, other countries would not recognize > copyright on diagnostic > >> images created in the US, which gives us at least the NASA situation. > > > > Do you have a citation for this? Also, is it where the image is > > created, or where it is first published, or something else? > > > Copyright, internationally, is bilateral agreements. If it is not > protected in the US, it cannot demand bilateral protection elsewhere. It > would be based on the jurisdiction of creation. Publication has had > nothing to do with the creation of copyright since the 1970's as far as I > am aware. Before 1976, in the US, place of publication was significant for > determining copyright protection because of the notice requirement. Now > copyright is automatic at fixation. > > Birgitte SB > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:34:14 -0500 > From: Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays > Message-ID: <C73B3CFB-5D65-48A4-95CE-80FB3E51645D(a)yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> wrote: > >>> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Dalton < > thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Upperarm.jpg > >>> > >>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arm.agr.jpg would probably be a > >>> better example. > >>> > >>> There's a good chance that wouldn't be considered copyrightable under > US law. > >> > >> Even if it is, I think an X-ray would be quite different. In taking a > >> photo of a subject's arm, the photographer must consider lighting, > >> angle to which the arm is turned, the proper camera settings, how to > >> find the exact arm that suits the purposes of the intended photo, etc. > > > > Heh, I'd argue that the photo in question shows that the photographer > > obviously does *not* have to make these considerations. Looks like a > > random arm in a random position against a plain white wall (hardly > > creative), with auto everything. > > > >> I think there would be just enough creativity in that arm shot, but > >> it'd be close. > > > > Yeah, I agree it'd be close. I think it'd come down to the testimony > > of the photographer. If he claimed "oh, I chose a hairy arm because > > X, and I opened my thumb because Y", maybe I'd buy it. So if you're > > feeling particularly copyright-paranoid, it's best to get explicit > > permission. > > > >> An X-ray, on the other hand, is made by a technician according to > >> documented procedures. The arm is turned to the proper angle to see > >> what the doctor wants to see, not to an angle that's aesthetically or > >> artistically pleasing. > > > > I could be wrong, but I'm not sure there's a requirement for aesthetic > > or artistic purpose. Non-fiction, software, legal contracts, etc., > > all have been held to be copyrightable. > > I think you are overestimating the very minimal amount of creativity that > is required to here. The aesthetic choice between noting a pause as a > period vs. a dash vs. a semi-colon has been upheld as copyrightable. There > is aesthetics within non-fiction and legal documents, whether or not they > are primary consideration. > > > > >> The image is taken according to standard and inflexible procedures. > >> The technician is not exercising a bit of > >> creativity in taking the image. In fact, the tech would likely get in > >> trouble if (s)he DID decide to "get creative" with it. > > > > That, on the other hand, is a very important point. > > > > On the other other hand, it's not true of all X-ray images. It's > > certainly possible, for instance, to create an X-ray image with the > > explicit purpose of putting it in an encyclopedia, or a journal, or > > even a book of artwork. > > > > Where it gets into grey area would be if the person created the X-ray > > image knowing that it would be used in a book, but that it would also > > be used for diagnostic purposes. > > > > Either way, it's a question of fact what instructions were given to > > the X-ray tech, as well as whether or not the tech followed them. > > > > I disagree here, the intention of the creator has no more to do with > copyright than effort expended. It all hangs on whether the work as > executed contains some newly created creative expression of the > information. Whether it resulted from purposeful or subconscious choices do > not matter. > > > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On 22 August 2012 20:50, Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> wrote: > >>> It possibly has a very thin copyright. > >> > >> Copyright doesn't have thickness. Either it is copyrightable or it > isn't. > > > > Incorrect. In some works, some aspects are copyrighted, and some > > aspects are not. > > > +1 > > Birgitte SB > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:35:31 -0400 > From: Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays > Message-ID: > < > CAPreJLTVGRbNeDBrsYUQ47hdV-qSqEodR+Y8sKjTDkavFPbBXA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:20 AM, <Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > I believe artistic/non-artistic is accurate for images. Technically it > is artistic, literary, dramatic, > > or musical works. > > Well, I think that's an abuse of the term "artistic". The job of a > photojournalist, for instance, is to capture what is true, not what is > aesthetically pleasing. > > I understand that it's an abuse of the term "artistic" which is, to > some extent codified into law. But I still don't think it's the right > term. > > >> Even using the term "utilitarian" rather than "artistic" I can still > >> come up with a large number of examples of things which seem pretty > >> "clear-cut" as "utilitarian" to me, but yet which receive copyright > >> protection. gzip, for instance. > > > > I actually expanded on this at the end of my last email. If that doesn't > clarify, ask again and > > explain what gzip is. > > gzip is command line compression software. As you've limited your > comment to images, it doesn't apply. > > >>> And even if it is only the US, other countries would not recognize > copyright on diagnostic > >>> images created in the US, which gives us at least the NASA situation. > >> > >> Do you have a citation for this? Also, is it where the image is > >> created, or where it is first published, or something else? > >> > > Copyright, internationally, is bilateral agreements. If it is not > protected in the US, it cannot > > demand bilateral protection elsewhere. It would be based on the > jurisdiction of creation. > > Publication has had nothing to do with the creation of copyright since > the 1970's as far as I > > am aware. Before 1976, in the US, place of publication was significant > for determining > > copyright protection because of the notice requirement. Now copyright is > automatic at fixation. > > Are you sure, or are you guessing? > > What about all that "country of origin" stuff in the Berne Convention? > That certainly suggests to me that the location of first publication > matters. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:51:56 -0400 > From: Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays > Message-ID: > <CAPreJLQcQAHptOp6n3mosJnCAYd-BYh4XZ== > g-zP6Ws4ZTvY7w(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:34 AM, <Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Aug 22, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> wrote: > >> I could be wrong, but I'm not sure there's a requirement for aesthetic > >> or artistic purpose. Non-fiction, software, legal contracts, etc., > >> all have been held to be copyrightable. > > > > I think you are overestimating the very minimal amount of creativity > that is required to here. > > Not at all. I'm just saying that creativity isn't necessarily art. A > legal contract may be quite creative. But it isn't art. > > >> Either way, it's a question of fact what instructions were given to > >> the X-ray tech, as well as whether or not the tech followed them. > >> > > > > I disagree here, the intention of the creator has no more to do with > copyright than effort > > expended. > > Hmm...you may be right on that. If I accidentally spill some paint on > a canvas and it creates an image that looks like the Virgin Mary, do I > have a copyright on the image? > > I'm not sure what the case law is on that one. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:05:02 -0400 > From: Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays > Message-ID: > <CAPreJLQ= > x4UkcwA0e64irG2L+S9vZaYNkdR3n1LoPsH221UsXQ(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:49 PM, <Birgitte_sb(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > To reword what I said before the vast majority of X-ray images in > existence are diagnostic > > images. There is no reason at all to purposefully search out X-rays that > might land in some > > grey area. > > One problem with that is that the X-ray images that you are most > likely to find are the most likely to have been created with the > intention of being distributed. > > On the other hand, if "probably no one will sue" is good enough for > you, then you really don't need to ask the legal question in the first > place. > > > Another rule of thumb: Most images, whatever they depict, are also > *designed* to be pleasing > > to human aesthetics. > > I don't understand that. What are you using the term "human > aesthetics" to mean? > > And even if you're true about most, that still leaves a great number > which were not. Many images were in fact designed to be aesthetically > displeasing. > > And many others were designed, like the X-ray image, to objectively > depict reality. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:10:26 -0400 > From: Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Copyright on Xrays > Message-ID: > <CAPreJLSiPfVPOsadRvqSHcChR7D60= > LgU2kAJ1jHEqmPg3XXAQ(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Anthony <wikimail(a)inbox.org> wrote: > > And many others were designed, like the X-ray image, to objectively > > depict reality. > > In fact, in theory, almost all the images in an encyclopedia should be > of this type (I say "almost" because there will also be images which > are there for the purposes of talking about the image itself). > > Unfortunately this is only the theory, and not the practice, and we > get pictures winning picture of the year which are altered from > reality in order to be more aesthetically pleasing. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:56:10 -0600 > From: James Heilman <jmh649(a)gmail.com> > To: wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,... > Message-ID: > < > CAF1en7XxmDGpmAen-GBKpFARyB42gh8ebHbAazcV0Lb074uAMA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Most of the issues where addressed. And they only way to determine if many > of the concerns hold water is to simply try it. A travel guide will likely > be heavily read and edited. > > As a comparison their are an approximately an equal number of medical > articles on Wikipedia to travel articles. Yet the travel articles had a > much higher number of dedicated editors. I hope that you Thomas do not see > this as justification to delete the medical project? Also if you look at > readership on Wikipedia. We have many thousands of article that receive > little to no viewership I do not consider this viewership justification for > deleting them. > > -- > James Heilman > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > > The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine > www.opentextbookofmedicine.com > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 101, Issue 51 > ******************************************** > -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

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24 Aug '12

A question about copyright, who owns the copyright on Xrays and are they even copyrightable? I have uploaded a few of them and no one seems to know the answer. I guess the options would be: 1) They are in the public domain https://open.umich.edu/wiki/Casebook#Radiograph_.28X-Ray.29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_Kingdom#Works_elig… 2) The X ray tech who took the image 3) The person / institution who paid to have the image taken a) The HMO or patient if in the USA b) The government if in many parts of the world 4) The doctor who ordered the image 5) The doctor who read the image 6) The hospital / shareholders of the hospital who owns the equipment 7) All of the above / some of the above / none of the above Would be good to have a legal position on this. -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

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Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,...
by Kim Bruning 23 Aug '12

23 Aug '12

For those interested, a quick reminder: The travel guide RFC will (soft) close in 1 hour, 17 minutes as of the moment this mail is sent. (At 0:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Travel_Guide sincerely, Kim Bruning

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 101, Issue 51
by Robin McCain 23 Aug '12

23 Aug '12

This is a question best referred to the RC church. Stranger phenomena have been advanced for canonization :-) On 8/23/2012 6:39 AM, wikimedia-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org wrote: > Hmm...you may be right on that. If I accidentally spill some paint on > a canvas and it creates an image that looks like the Virgin Mary, do I > have a copyright on the image?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Travel Guide RFC closing in 3,2,...
by James Heilman 23 Aug '12

23 Aug '12

Most of the issues where addressed. And they only way to determine if many of the concerns hold water is to simply try it. A travel guide will likely be heavily read and edited. As a comparison their are an approximately an equal number of medical articles on Wikipedia to travel articles. Yet the travel articles had a much higher number of dedicated editors. I hope that you Thomas do not see this as justification to delete the medical project? Also if you look at readership on Wikipedia. We have many thousands of article that receive little to no viewership I do not consider this viewership justification for deleting them. -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

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22 Aug '12

There are two things if the images are not copyrightable: 1) If users add images from lets say a textbook. Will someone on commons simply delete them and thus it would be a waste of time. 2) Do we exposure either ourselves or the WMF to legal problems. And if so is this important enough to warrant. -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine www.opentextbookofmedicine.com

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Rejected email (was Copyright on Xrays)
by J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov 21 Aug '12

21 Aug '12

The email was rejected because, as indicated in the bounce message, the email was sent from an address not subscribed to the list. Such emails are not held pending moderation because of the quantity of spam messages. Alex 2012/8/21 Matthew Bowker <matthewrbowker.wiki(a)me.com> > Hi, all. > > I believe Mike was commenting on the fact that his message was bounced > back (because of an email funky) and not the topic itself. In fact, I've > been caught by that exact same filter myself. > > Sorry if I've read your message wrong. > > Matthew Bowker > User:Matthewrbowker > > On Aug 20, 2012, at 6:48 PM, Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote: > > > On 08/20/12 2:01 PM, Michael Peel wrote: > >> OK, so the moderation of this mailing list appears to be broken (surely > such emails should at least be held for approval by a moderator?). But > please see my previous email (which I sent after hitting the 'reply' > button)… > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Mike > >> > > It seems like a perfectly valid topic for this list. > > > > Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >

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[Wikimedia Announcements] The Signpost -- Volume 8, Issue 34 -- 20 August 2012
by Wikipedia Signpost 21 Aug '12

21 Aug '12

Op-ed: Wikimedians are rightfully wary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-08-20/Op-ed News and notes: Core content competition in full swing; Wikinews fork taken offline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-08-20/News_a… In the news: American judges on citing Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-08-20/In_the… WikiProject report: Land of Calm and Contrast: WikiProject Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-08-20/WikiPr… Featured content: Enough for a week – but I'm damned if I see how the helican. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-08-20/Featur… Technology report: Lua onto test2wiki and news of a convention-al extension http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-08-20/Techno… Single page view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signpost/Single PDF version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-08-20 http://identi.ca/wikisignpost / https://twitter.com/wikisignpost -- Wikipedia Signpost Staff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost _______________________________________________ Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia community. For more information about Wikimedia-l: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l _______________________________________________ WikimediaAnnounce-l mailing list WikimediaAnnounce-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaannounce-l

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Wikimedia-l August 2012