Wikimedia-l May 2011

wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org

124 participants
79 discussions

[Foundation-l] One down, three to go
by Virgilio A. P. Machado 27 May '11

27 May '11

No, of course there was no intention, stated or otherwise, to help. That was exactly my point, in case you missed it. If you have to ask about how you are expected to help, you can't afford to do it. You are out of your depth and out of your league (absolutely no offense intended). I love English lessons. They take me way back to my youth. Of course everybody is entitled to his own definitions of kind and nice, but for "kind" I'll stick to "having or showing a friendly, generous, and considerate nature," and for "nice," "pleasant; agreeable; satisfactory." If you were trying to be both kind and nice, I appreciate that, and regret not having recognized it. Please don't let me forget to let you know whenever you do succeed, but spare me of "taking up time from [your] life, for [my] potential benefit alone." Please don't. Nobody will believe you, and neither will I. From then on, I have no idea of what you were writing about. Dealing with an old hand is no kid's business. Got to tread very lightly here. "Whistling past the graveyard" is a very appropriate metaphor considering that the problems, no matter how large or small, of those that are there, are definitely over. Time eventually solves all our problems. If you are "patient and persistent enough" they will go away. Maintaining best practices is an entirely different matter. I would tend to agree that THERE ARE problems, but it's beyond me to list them all, or the projects where they persist. Given that human nature is what it is, I strongly believe that there is room for continuos improvement, both at the personal level (and I mean no offense to anyone, by implying that any of the members of this list, except myself, are less than perfect) and in each and everyone of the Wikimedia Foundation projects (and I mean no offense to any project and/or members of any project, by implying that any of them, except myself, is less than perfect). Now comes the tricky part. Let's review what I wrote about Meta, for example: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vapmachado#Updated_request_for_ass… "The work on Meta was being done in an orderly manner until the disruption provoked and caused by those same people mentioned above. The user is the same. Trouble only started after the interference of the same people from the Portuguese Wikipedia on Meta. Their votes can be seen popping up on the RfA. There has never been a single block on any other Wikimedia project where these editors do not have any influence. The obvious conclusion is that the hostile behavior stays with that people, not this user." Thousands of people are involved in those processes. It has been and it continues to be discussed extensively elsewhere. I might be one of the few or the only one who has patiently and persistently brought it up here, sometimes at the risk of disrupting this list. I do apologize for that. I wish I didn't have any reasons to do it, but nothing would give me greater satisfaction than realizing that I made a speckle of a difference in making things better for others, so they would not have to go through the same that I did, and at least one Wikimedia project would be better off for that. I recall how some people have been so baffled that they wonder about what are my intentions. I don't think I ever answered. We all know that "hell is full of good intentions." What I have done is nothing, but whatever I have done for the Wikimedia Foundation projects nobody can take away from me. Now, would you believe me if I told you that there are some people who are spending their time and effort trying to do just that? Sad isn't it? But yes, it is true, you better believe me. Sincerely, Virgilio A. P. Machado Executive Editor, <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/pt:Log%C3%ADstica>Logística a Logistics wikibook in Portuguese The One and Only Editor to ever develop and complete <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Escolares_e_univers…>academic projects on the Brazilian Wikipedia

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Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
by M. Williamson 27 May '11

27 May '11

I'm not sure any of us had the stated intention of helping you. What, exactly, were we expected to be helping you with? 2011/5/26 Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt>: > Thank you guys. I knew you wouldn't let me down. > You outdid yourselves. On this illustrious > mailing list where from «you know who» all the > way to the neighborhood young kid posts, I made > an apparent innocuous statement that included: > "if someone, under the false pretenses of helping > you can turn things from bad to worse for you, > they will. That's the name of the game here," > Now, check the archives. Do you find there a kind > and/or nice word? NO. Do you find posts by four > volunteers who made a point of proving me right? > YES. I'm absolutely sure they were doing their > best to help, weren't you? Of course you were. > It's not nice to make personal attacks, right? Right. > > Y'all have a nice day. > > Virgilio A. P. Machado (Signing with my true > Wikimedia credentials, now go find a reliable source) > Executive Editor, > <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/pt:Log%C3%ADstica>Logística > a Logistics wikibook in Portuguese > The One and Only Editor to ever develop and > complete > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Escolares_e_univers…>academic > projects on the Brazilian Wikipedia > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >

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Re: [Foundation-l] Scheduled intermittent downtime on all Wikimedia projects ...
by WJhonson＠aol.com 27 May '11

27 May '11

In a message dated 5/25/2011 11:01:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, midom.lists(a)gmail.com writes: > You forgot to tell if all of my responses or just some, and if there's > really no point at all, or there might be some. > Anyway, thanks for this helpful contribution! > Refactoring my comments : Domas some or at least one of your comments are not helpful at all. (Although some or even most of your other comments are helpful.) Will

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Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
by FT2 27 May '11

27 May '11

You appear to have a different definition of "kind or nice word" than I'm used to. The words have been posted to help you. That is both kind (because it helps) and nice (because it was volunteered, taking up time from my life, for your potential benefit alone). I cannot control if you find them helpful, if you are predisposed to a way of thinking that forces you to ignore or dismiss them, or anything else. None the less they are my understanding of the factual information you probably need to consider to obtain what you are describing. What is not "kind" or "nice" is to say things that provide unlikely expectations that will eventually be dashed. For example, agreeing with a perception that I didn't find accurate because it would please you. FT2 On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt>wrote: > Thank you guys. I knew you wouldn't let me down. > You outdid yourselves. On this illustrious > mailing list where from «you know who» all the > way to the neighborhood young kid posts, I made > an apparent innocuous statement that included: > "if someone, under the false pretenses of helping > you can turn things from bad to worse for you, > they will. That's the name of the game here," > Now, check the archives. Do you find there a kind > and/or nice word? NO. Do you find posts by four > volunteers who made a point of proving me right? > YES. I'm absolutely sure they were doing their > best to help, weren't you? Of course you were. > It's not nice to make personal attacks, right? Right. > > Y'all have a nice day. > > Virgilio A. P. Machado (Signing with my true > Wikimedia credentials, now go find a reliable source) > Executive Editor, > <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/pt:Log%C3%ADstica>Logística > a Logistics wikibook in Portuguese > The One and Only Editor to ever develop and > complete > < > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Escolares_e_univers… > >academic > projects on the Brazilian Wikipedia > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >

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Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
by Virgilio A. P. Machado 26 May '11

26 May '11

Thank you guys. I knew you wouldn't let me down. You outdid yourselves. On this illustrious mailing list where from «you know who» all the way to the neighborhood young kid posts, I made an apparent innocuous statement that included: "if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here," Now, check the archives. Do you find there a kind and/or nice word? NO. Do you find posts by four volunteers who made a point of proving me right? YES. I'm absolutely sure they were doing their best to help, weren't you? Of course you were. It's not nice to make personal attacks, right? Right. Y'all have a nice day. Virgilio A. P. Machado (Signing with my true Wikimedia credentials, now go find a reliable source) Executive Editor, <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/pt:Log%C3%ADstica>Logística a Logistics wikibook in Portuguese The One and Only Editor to ever develop and complete <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/pt:Wikip%C3%A9dia:Projetos/Escolares_e_univers…>academic projects on the Brazilian Wikipedia

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[Foundation-l] Reminder: IRC office hours with Sue Gardner, this Thursday at 17:00 UTC
by Steven Walling 26 May '11

26 May '11

Just a note that this is happening at 17:00 UTC. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Steven Walling <swalling(a)wikimedia.org> Date: Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:33 PM Subject: IRC office hours with Sue Gardner, this Thursday at 17:00 UTC To: foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Hi everyone, Just wanted to give some prior notice that this Thursday at 17:00 UTC there will be an office hours in #wikimedia-office on freenode. Local time conversion and other links are in the usual place on Meta.[1] A topic has not yet been set, so watch the wiki page if you're interested and feel free to propose something. Thanks for reading, -- Steven Walling Fellow at Wikimedia Foundation wikimediafoundation.org 1. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours -- Steven Walling Fellow at Wikimedia Foundation wikimediafoundation.org

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[Foundation-l] Open Decentralized Society
by Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis 25 May '11

25 May '11

Open Decentralized Society is a project that aims at creating a Wikipedia that takes trust relations between users into consideration. It wants to create a wiki that will have different articles for each subject, articles that would be ranked based on the person who is viewing them and his trust relations. Each trust link will also have semantic meaning. Each person will try to certificate which person is a doctor, which person is a software engineer, and for each semantic meaning there will be a different graph. It is important to note that there will not be a global ranking. You could think of it as if everyone is a seed of trust for himself. This project is in its infancy. My intention is to create a community that will implement those features on mediawiki. If you are a freedom proponent. If you believe that the flow of information should be free, join me in creating the next Wikipedia. The project needs funding, peer-reviewing, programmers, security experts, lawyers. Don't hesitate to contact me: xekoukou#gmail.com http://opensociety.referata.com -- This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential, intended solely for the addressee(s), and may contain legally privileged information. Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. E-mails are susceptible to alteration. I shall not be liable for the message if altered, changed or falsified. Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis

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Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
by M. Williamson 25 May '11

25 May '11

Virgilio, the statements that you made seemed to indicate that you believed that your own situation was typical and that the results you claim for your situation are inevitable in all cases: "Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required." That includes an "if...then" statement, which implies (to me) that there are no exceptions to this supposed rule of universal treachery. So what you have done is taken this thread, which was much more general, and focused it onto your specific case, with the claim that what you have supposedly suffered is not just an isolated case, but a universal, and on top of that you claimed that this "fact" has been "extensively documented on reliable sources". I'm still waiting to see "reliable sources" to prove that treachery is not only common, but *universal* in our projects. -m. 2011/5/25 Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt>: > I'm sorry for not being as brilliant as you are, > but I have read my message over and over and can't find any "always" there. > > I haven't made any mention of the number of > active editors. I don't know what you mean when > you say that "obviously there are some cases > where we can see things went badly." Nobody ever > said that about what you and others like you have done to me. > > You can't miss "the step from that to " if > someone... can turn things from bad to worse for > you, they will"." Just retrace your own steps. > Please point an occasion, a message you haven't > use to take another stab at me. For what purpose? I know. Doesn't anybody here? > > I never made any racist comments, and it saddened > me very deeply that you found it appropriate to > use that as an example, therefore associating me > with that kind of behavior. I do not use the kind > of language that you so proudly display, again in > a despicable attempt to associate me with the > kind of people who do. I wonder how such a nice > person such as yourself can resort to that kind > of behavior and be so welcome and so highly > regarded. That's why you can't be my buddy, pal, > friend and why you do have so much trouble > feeling any kind of empathy. "Nor do most people > here. That is [...] why other people aren't > agreeing with you very much either, or [standing up] to your support here." > > My apologies to the list for the personal tone of > this message, but I believe things were getting a bit out of hand. > > Sincerely, > > Virgilio A. P. Machado > > > At 09:47 25-05-2011, you wrote: >>Yeah. It's news for me. You really need to be >>careful not to replace "sometimes" by "always". >>We have a few hundreds of thousands of active >>editors over time. So obviously there are some >>cases where we can see things went badly. What >>I'm missing is the step from that to " if >>someone... can turn things from bad to worse for >>you, they will". A bit of a difference. This is >>the kind of logic that (in racists) goes: "A >>dark skinned man nudged me on the street and >>didn't say sorry" ----> "all dark skinned people >>are rude" ----> "Dark skinned people will fuck >>you over if they can". Sorry, but I don't buy >>it. Nor do most people here. That is possibly >>why other people aren't agreeing with you very >>much either, or jumping to your support here. FT2 > >>On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt>wrote: > > Oh my! That's news for you? Let's see. Just a > sample from firsthand experiences. > > 1) From Meta: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vapmachado#Updated_request_for_ass… > > "The work on Meta was being done in an orderly > manner until the disruption provoked and caused > by those same people mentioned above. The user is > the same. Trouble only started after the > interference of the same people from the > Portuguese Wikipedia on Meta. Their votes can be > seen popping up on the RfA. There has never been > a single block on any other Wikimedia project > where these editors do not have any influence. > The obvious conclusion is that the hostile > behavior stays with that people, not this user." > > 2) From Wikimedia Outreach: > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outreach_debacle > > "Please edit those pages as though they were your > own wiki. Make yourself at home on the Outreach > wiki." Wrote Lennart. Wow! I was in awe. This > project and/or these guys had the right stuff." > "When I revisited Wikimedia Outreach, my user > page had been deleted, my own name suppressed > from my message and replaced by (Redacted)." > Later, my user page was restored with this quite > amazing summary: "restoring per request, it > appears this user intended to out himself, > removing personal address". It was decided that > "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is my personal > address. Well I regret to have to let you know > that "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is not my > "personal address". It's one of my many mailing > addresses. "Apartado" is the Portuguese word for > Post Office or P.O. Box, and I can assure you that I never lived there. > > From the Portuguese Wikipedia: > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educ… > > 3) > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educ… > > Em engenharia, quando a obra não é executada de > acordo com o projecto é um caso sério. Na > Wikipédia chama-se «ajudar». «Em Roma, sê > Romano.» É assim. Uma pessoa põe o seu «espírito > criativo» a funcionar, é «ajudada» e pronto, lá > se foi o que planeou para o «galheiro». Já se > tinha agradecido, portanto, é tocar para diante e > esperar por melhores dias ou que o «ajudante» vá > de férias. Não há nada que um vulgar editor faça > que um atento administrador, burocrata e membro > do conselho de arbitragem não possa desfazer. > Nesta Wikipédia o que não falta são ajudas. Se > alguém encontrar por aí a definição de «período > para discutir o mérito da página», agradece-se desde já. > > 4) > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educ… > > With all the details of the "help" I got to be > blocked for the first time. Moral of the story: > I'm currently banned and my "helper" is King on > the Portuguese Wikipedia, a fine example of a "meritocracy." > > Even in these modest examples, if you find > anything not verifiable, please let me know. > > 5) "Furthermore, if someone, under the false > pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad > to worse for you, they will. That's the name of > the game here." Another example: > > "Instead of complaining, you might like to notice > how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable > results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring > change of them changes the results." FT2 > > "That does not mean that there are not isolated > cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently > and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community." Fred > > Could some "consensus" be reached on this matter? > > 6) Fred Bauder might also be willing to fill you > with the details of how extremely helpful he has > been to me. Permission is granted to make public > all my e-mail messages to him, showing my appreciation for his good deeds. > > Any further questions? > > Sincerely, > > Virgilio A. P. Machado > > At 05:14 25-05-2011, you wrote: > >Oh dear. This just lost a lot of respect (whatever respect is remaining). > > > >So if someone (anyone?) can cause another person problems, they will? I must > >remember that as the default expectation of society, or Wikipedia > >communities at least. > >Documented as being that extreme by reliable sources no less. > > > >Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes lead > >to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring change > >of them changes the results. > > > >FT2 > > > > > >On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Virgilio A. P. > Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt>wrote: > > > > > Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can > > > turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of > > > the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable > > > sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >

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Re: [Foundation-l] No rights to participate
by FT2 25 May '11

25 May '11

Yeah. It's news for me. You really need to be careful not to replace "sometimes" by "always". We have a few hundreds of thousands of active editors over time. So obviously there are some cases where we can see things went badly. What I'm missing is the step from that to " if someone... can turn things from bad to worse for you, they will". A bit of a difference. This is the kind of logic that (in racists) goes: "A dark skinned man nudged me on the street and didn't say sorry" ----> "all dark skinned people are rude" ----> "Dark skinned people will fuck you over if they can". Sorry, but I don't buy it. Nor do most people here. That is possibly why other people aren't agreeing with you very much either, or jumping to your support here. FT2 On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt>wrote: > Oh my! That's news for you? Let's see. Just a > sample from firsthand experiences. > > 1) From Meta: > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Vapmachado#Updated_request_for_ass… > > "The work on Meta was being done in an orderly > manner until the disruption provoked and caused > by those same people mentioned above. The user is > the same. Trouble only started after the > interference of the same people from the > Portuguese Wikipedia on Meta. Their votes can be > seen popping up on the RfA. There has never been > a single block on any other Wikimedia project > where these editors do not have any influence. > The obvious conclusion is that the hostile > behavior stays with that people, not this user." > > 2) From Wikimedia Outreach: > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_Outreach_debacle > > "Please edit those pages as though they were your > own wiki. Make yourself at home on the Outreach > wiki." Wrote Lennart. Wow! I was in awe. This > project and/or these guys had the right stuff." > "When I revisited Wikimedia Outreach, my user > page had been deleted, my own name suppressed > from my message and replaced by (Redacted)." > Later, my user page was restored with this quite > amazing summary: "restoring per request, it > appears this user intended to out himself, > removing personal address". It was decided that > "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is my personal > address. Well I regret to have to let you know > that "Apartado 313, 2826-801 Caparica" is not my > "personal address". It's one of my many mailing > addresses. "Apartado" is the Portuguese word for > Post Office or P.O. Box, and I can assure you that I never lived there. > > From the Portuguese Wikipedia: > > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educ… > > 3) > > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educ… > > Em engenharia, quando a obra não é executada de > acordo com o projecto é um caso sério. Na > Wikipédia chama-se «ajudar». «Em Roma, sê > Romano.» É assim. Uma pessoa põe o seu «espírito > criativo» a funcionar, é «ajudada» e pronto, lá > se foi o que planeou para o «galheiro». Já se > tinha agradecido, portanto, é tocar para diante e > esperar por melhores dias ou que o «ajudante» vá > de férias. Não há nada que um vulgar editor faça > que um atento administrador, burocrata e membro > do conselho de arbitragem não possa desfazer. > Nesta Wikipédia o que não falta são ajudas. Se > alguém encontrar por aí a definição de «período > para discutir o mérito da página», agradece-se desde já. > > 4) > > http://human-rights-in-cyberspace.wikia.com/wiki/The_crusaders_against_educ… > > With all the details of the "help" I got to be > blocked for the first time. Moral of the story: > I'm currently banned and my "helper" is King on > the Portuguese Wikipedia, a fine example of a "meritocracy." > > Even in these modest examples, if you find > anything not verifiable, please let me know. > > 5) "Furthermore, if someone, under the false > pretenses of helping you can turn things from bad > to worse for you, they will. That's the name of > the game here." Another example: > > "Instead of complaining, you might like to notice > how your own attitudes lead to fairly predictable > results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring > change of them changes the results." FT2 > > "That does not mean that there are not isolated > cases of injustice. Such users need to patiently > and persistently bring their situation to the attention of the community." > Fred > > Could some "consensus" be reached on this matter? > > 6) Fred Bauder might also be willing to fill you > with the details of how extremely helpful he has > been to me. Permission is granted to make public > all my e-mail messages to him, showing my appreciation for his good deeds. > > Any further questions? > > Sincerely, > > Virgilio A. P. Machado > > > At 05:14 25-05-2011, you wrote: > >Oh dear. This just lost a lot of respect (whatever respect is remaining). > > > >So if someone (anyone?) can cause another person problems, they will? I > must > >remember that as the default expectation of society, or Wikipedia > >communities at least. > >Documented as being that extreme by reliable sources no less. > > > >Instead of complaining, you might like to notice how your own attitudes > lead > >to fairly predictable results, and a genuine, noticeable and enduring > change > >of them changes the results. > > > >FT2 > > > > > >On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam(a)fct.unl.pt > >wrote: > > > > > Furthermore, if someone, under the false pretenses of helping you can > > > turn things from bad to worse for you, they will. That's the name of > > > the game here, as it has been extensively documented on reliable > > > sources, which makes this statement verifiable, as required. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >

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Re: [Foundation-l] Scheduled intermittent downtime on all Wikimedia projects ...
by WJhonson＠aol.com 25 May '11

25 May '11

In a message dated 5/25/2011 3:33:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, midom.lists(a)gmail.com writes: > There're lots of great ideas around the world, feeding the hungry and > curing the cancer among them. > Domas your responses are not helpful at all. You are simply stirring the pot to no point. Please stop.

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Wikimedia-l May 2011