Geoffrey Plourde writes:
> How many times does this have to be pounded home? If you put ads in
> WP or any other project, there would be a fork. Look at the Spanish
> WP if you don't believe me.
I think it probably can't be pounded home anymore, because the
difficulties of forking a large project these days are understated
these days. (You can fork content, but forking decently performing
infrastructure is much harder, given the growth in our audience.)
There are reasonable arguments to be made against advertising, but I
don't think the "fork" argument holds any water. (I guess if it did
that would make it a "spoon" argument.)
> However why don't we look at a opt in adsense skin?
We're a long way from even considering this sort of option.
--Mike
Dear Sirs.
We are starting a new project, based on MediaWiki softare:
soloWiki: La wikipedia del modelkismo a escala o
soloWiki: The wiki of scale modelers
You can see that in:
http:wiki.solomaquetas.com, we are in the initial stages and using all
templates and tools availables. I expect that to finish present year we will
be with a godd quantity of critical mass of information
So, I want to know what is necessary for start a Chilean chapter of
Wikipedia iniative, in large scale and with transversal and universal
content
Cherrs from Chile
Alejandro Nuñez
David Gerard writes:
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/googles-thin-skinned-lawyers/index…
>
>> From Google Ads terms of service:
>
> "5. Prohibited Uses. You shall not, and shall not authorize or
> encourage any third party to:
> ?
> (xi) engage in any action or practice that reflects poorly on Google
> or otherwise disparages or devalues Google's reputation or goodwill."
>
> So much for NPOV.
You may be sure that such a term of service would not survive any
negotiations between Google and Wikimedia. (Note: not arguing for ads
here -- just saying that I now make a practice of removing
unreasonable terms from contracts that WMF enters into. This turns
out not to be as problematic as you might imagine, especially when the
other party wants to deal with you badly enough.)
--Mike
IF ads are ever added to Wikipedia, then I for one would stick with the site
that would be expected to have tens of millions of dollars for further
development rather than clinging to an idealistic, but ultimately
self-destructive, fork.
******
That idealistic urge is what has made Wikipedia the world's eighth most
popular website. An enormous base of unpaid labor is what drives that
success and the volunteer community's priorities cannot be ignored.
Certainly *some* Wikipedians would tolerate advertisements. A significant
portion would not, and we have no good estimate of how much loss that would
be, or of whether the volunteer pool would ever recover if that goodwill
were lost.
Another possible solution would be to emulate the practice of many existing
nonprofits that offer some kind of tasteful thank-you to major donors that
stops short of outright advertisement. Think of how public radio thanks
program sponsors and how theater groups thank donors in the back pages of
the programs. In informal conversations I've been hearing a much higher
tolerance for that general approach.
It's probably possible (and might even be worthwhile) to run a survey and
study these options. Even more important would be to put together a
knowledgeable set of people to craft a meaningful set of survey proposals.
-Durova
Hi folks,
I'm delighted to tell you that Frank Schulenburg has agreed to lead the Wikimedia Foundation’s public outreach initiatives. This is terrific news, and will enable us, I hope, to significantly increase our activities. In this role, he will work for the Foundation part-time, and will report to me.
Many of you know Frank already. He first contributed to Wikipedia in 2005, and quickly grew involved with the other projects as well. In 2006, he founded Wikipedia Academy, an event aimed at increasing quality in the encyclopedia by encouraging contributions from targeted groups, primarily in academia. Since 2006, he’s staged multiple Academies, including our most recent ones in South Africa last November.
Also in 2006, Frank organized an exhibition documenting Wikipedia’s first five years, and created the media literacy “Wikipedia at Schools” project. He created the Zedler medal for distinguished encyclopedic contributions, awarded every year by Wikimedia Deutschland and the Mainz Academy of Sciences and Literature. He has been a board member of Wikimedia Deutschland since February 2006, and has served, since July 2007, as its vice chair. Prior to this, he worked for the Göttingen State and University Library and for the Institute of Economic History of the University of Göttingen.
Now, in his role as public outreach coordinator, Frank will stage more Wikipedia Academies, and will develop and implement other strategies designed to encourage contributions from targeted underrepresented groups – which may include, for example, small-language speakers, people in developing nations, and older people. (Our general survey, in development with UNU-Merit, will help us solidify the demographics we want to target.) Frank will also design other outreach events, templates and support materials aimed at raising public awareness and understanding of Wikimedia projects. In all of this, he will work closely with the chapters.
I believe this move will strengthen the Foundation's relationship with Wikimedia Deutschland, which is great. Wikimedia Deutschland is an important partner for the Foundation. It was the first chapter to open an office and hire paid staff. It has developed important business partnerships with organizations such as the publisher of the German Wikipedia DVD and with der Spiegel, which has recently launched a knowledge portal combining Wikipedia content with the complete Spiegel archive and the Bertelsmann encyclopedia. Wikimedia Deutschland has also been a successful fundraiser, which has enabled it to make significant financial contributions to the Amsterdam server cluster.
Please join me in thanking Wikimedia Deutschland for its support, and in welcoming Frank to the Foundation.
Sue
I agree with Todd. Plus, if there was a fork I would be right there with him.
----- Original Message ----
From: Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 9:20:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Advertisements?
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Robert Rohde <rarohde(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Charli Li <kbblogger(a)verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > Advertisements usually do not say "buy this". However, when an
> > advertiser is contracted to financially support an individual or an
> > entity, the advertiser wants something in return. That something in
> > return is usually the placing of an advertisement on the venue(s) that
> > the individual or entity owns, but that can be different in every
> > case. In Wikimedia's case, the advertiser(s) could edit, or force
> > someone to edit, a Wikipedia or Wikinews article about the advertiser
> > or something related to the advertiser to make them look good. The
> > advertiser(s) could also spam external links to the point where there
> > would be too many that violated the specific guideline(s) about
> > external links.
>
> <snip>
>
>
> Why do you believe the community or the WMF woud tolerate abusive editing by
> advertisers? You speak as if it is a foregone conclusion that advertisers
> would control content and I think that is nonsense. Advertisers who come to
> us with that expectation could and should be rejected. However, many
> reputable companies have profiles that are both fully NPOV and which the
> companies are quite comfortable with.
>
> Advertisers participating in Google Adwords (for example) have no
> expectation of control over the content of the pages those advertisments
> appear on, and their advertisements are plainly distinguished. I have no
> reason to expect that Wikipedia should be any different. In fact if there
> are visible advertisements for Widget by X, I suspect the community would go
> to extra lengths to strip any self-serving bias from X's article.
>
> Frankly, I think the potential for self-serving content manipulation is much
> less with advertising than it is when a large fraction of the WMF budget
> comes from a handful of anonymous major donors. When a single entity
> privately donates $300k to the WMF the risk that they would come back later
> expecting secret favors seems much higher than when there are many
> publicly-visible advertisers each contributing only a small portion of the
> WMF's income.
>
> -Robert Rohde
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
Regardless, -external purchase links violate NPOV-. Period. NPOV is a
Foundation issue. The ONLY text that should appear on a mainspace page
is an NPOV article and the standard utility and navigation links, at
least provided the user hasn't voluntarily modified that him/herself
with Javascript tools. Having text anywhere on that page which might
say "Brand X Widgets: The best in the world!" or "Buy the best,
longest-lasting Something around at a great value today!" is
unacceptable and violates NPOV. Worse, with something like Google
Adwords, the text of the ads would likely be closely related to the
article the reader is looking at, compounding the problem.
I suppose, if someone really wanted to sell ads in projectspace, or
other namespaces where NPOV is not a requirement, that wouldn't
violate that critical Foundation issue (that article space must remain
-absolutely free- of POV, be it boosterism or attacks, and ads are by
definition one or the other), but it wouldn't provide a significant
benefit in that case. Wikimedia projects and Wikimedia's mission,
especially the requirement for NPOV, are not compatible with
advertising. Ads are, by definition, POV ("Buy from me, not my
competitors!"), and therefore deliberately inserting them into
projects requiring NPOV (which all Wikimedia projects do)
fundamentally contradicts that critical principle.
That's aside from annoyance, bad PR, volunteers leaving, and the
likelihood of a successful fork (and if no one else were to fork when
ads were added, I happily would.) We'd be left with two equally bad
choices: The Foundation removing NPOV from its list of "must-have"
Foundation issues, or the Foundation to say "Well this only applies to
the -projects-, not to -us-, when we're making money from violating
it." We cannot have both ads and NPOV, so I say let's keep NPOV. It's
really pretty done us pretty well so far.
--
Freedom is the right to say that 2+2=4. From this all else follows.
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Although with the current situation, it is more likely that a Treasurer will be beaten into office.
----- Original Message ----
From: Erik Moeller <erik(a)wikimedia.org>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 6:34:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Restricting Appointed members (Proposal).
On 3/18/08, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> How
> would a council of community members know how to pick someone that's
> going to be a good treasurer of the board?
The likeliest answer would be a Nominating Committee, a standard
mechanism used by many non-profits to develop their Boards.
--
Erik Möller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
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Jimmy,
(I did not really understand if the presentation in Facebook was your
own work, or someone else work ?)
I'll be very pleased if you work at a presentation for the coming board
meeting, but it would be a good idea to inform the organizers of the
agenda beforehand. You have neither mentionned that on the board list,
nor on the board wiki. The agenda is already pretty full, so we have no
time to squizze in another long discussion.
I'll need to know how long it will take, what you are exactly planning
to discuss, and when you are planning to be present at the board
meeting. Depending on your answer, Sue and I will try to find a slot for
a presentation.
More generally, if any of you have a topic you would like to discuss
absolutely at that board meeting, please SHOW UP NOW ! :-)
Ant
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: LA Times article / Advertising in Wikipedia
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:55:43 -0400
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales-ADBWotsCEHwAvxtiuMwx3w(a)public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r(a)public.gmane.org>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
<foundation-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r(a)public.gmane.org>
Newsgroups: gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation
References:
<mailman.11257.1205261238.4500.foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
<846221520803120609x5dfcf0ees636e1ae310a31873(a)mail.gmail.com>
<480eb3150803120831k2fa67387l94901c980a804d05(a)mail.gmail.com>
<846221520803120842g66a460bfhf1de93207e2dd546(a)mail.gmail.com>
<9839a05c0803120903u41083720t99cb238b72df666(a)mail.gmail.com>
<47D81504.9020804(a)wikimedia.org>
<9839a05c0803121143l34a3e938l3107a1f203797ba2(a)mail.gmail.com>
<47D84DFD.7070201(a)wikimedia.org>
<9839a05c0803130159u79be2959ua6f4dc206346603c(a)mail.gmail.com>
<47D96E7D.4020501(a)wikimedia.org>
<9839a05c0803131204j4daac784ib188bf2f33b24a2a(a)mail.gmail.com>
<47D99004.4010300(a)wikimedia.org> <47DA1182.3050108(a)hackish.org>
<47DAAC63.6090105(a)wikimedia.org>
I was just reviewing this thread and it motivated me to hurry up and
finish a presentation that I plan to make at the upcoming board meeting.
I was curious to know whether Facebook users understand that Wikipedia
is a charity, and what they think about putting advertising in
Wikipedia.
I mean as regards the PVC. I simply have issues with members being drawn from secret lists.
----- Original Message ----
From: Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:37:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Restricting Appointed members (Proposal).
Hoi,
It is extremely transparant how the new board members were selected; it was
done by the existing board. That is all there is to know right?
Thanks,
GerardM
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:
> I mean any group where the members are not selected transparently.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 1:56:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Restricting Appointed members (Proposal).
>
> Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> > Exactly. I for one will vigorously oppose any provisional group that
> operates in secrecy.
> >
> Then it comes down to what you mean by secrecy.
>
> Having every last bit of conversation out in the public doesn't work
> either. It's great to have this discussed on an open list, but that's
> not an effective environment for synthesizing a solution, because the
> level of noise and repetition gets too high. It often takes alternating
> periods of public consultation, and quiet building. Analogous to the
> scientific method, we develop hypotheses in small discussions, and test
> those hypotheses by asking for public input. The process is repeated as
> often as necessary. When we get close to agreement the public criticism
> diminishes.
>
> Take the relatively simple question of the size of the Volunteer
> council. The suggested numbers have ranged from 20 to 500. We can
> safely say that the optimal number is somewhere between those two. When
> it is discussed by the Provisional Council its members come to an agree
> settlement among themselves, and present reasons why they arrived at
> that number. That is then ready to go back to the public for further
> comment.
>
> Similar processes will happen for other issues that cannot be so easily
> defined.
>
> Ec
> > From: Ray Saintonge
> >
> > effe iets anders wrote:
> >
> >> although off topic here:
> >> because it gives a signal by the board that they are willing.
> >> because it gives a clear timeline
> >> because it gives a little pressure
> >> because this report would not be "just a report"
> >>
> >> BR, Lodewijk
> >>
> >>
> > Exactly. The idea of a Wikicouncil has been knocking about for a few
> > years already, and nothing has happened. Any group can get together to
> > talk about anything, but that does not give any credibility to the
> > report. If the Board passes a resolution to the effect that this is a
> > worthwhile initiative it has a tremendous effect on the credibility of
> > the report.
> >
> > It is not just about what some group wants to hash out. It is about
> > what the community wants hashed out. Making the proposal public when it
> > was has drawn a lot of comments from the community, including many
> > constructive ones. Is it not more community minded to put out the
> > proposal before debate, instead of after when it would be far more
> > difficult to make changes?
> >
> > The name really doesn't matter. We could spend a lot of time on the
> > semantic differences between "provisional council" and "steering
> > committee" for a group that would most likely not exist by the end of
> > the year. What difference would that make to any substantive result?
> >
> > Ec
> >
> >> 2008/3/17, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Effe, if the purpose of this initial group is only to issue a report
> on
> >>> the need and viability and potential structure of a future group, why
> not
> >>> just have it be called a steering committee of some sort, organize the
> >>> people you think are helpful and interested, and issue a report with
> your
> >>> names on it after talking to other people and forming up some more
> fully
> >>> fleshed out ideas? Why go through the agita of a proposal and a debate
> and
> >>> all the rest, when what you really seem to want is to get a group of
> people
> >>> together to hash out what they want to propose - and then start the
> debate?
> >>>
> >>> Nathan
> >>>
> >>> On 3/17/08, effe iets anders <effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> as I said, there might be no need, even by your definition. It all
> >>>> depends
> >>>> on the report and whether accepted by the board. So please do not act
> >>>> hastely here and do not try to get everything done at once. Rome
> isn't
> >>>> biult
> >>>> on one day either.
> >>>>
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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I simply mean choosing members through a nontransparent means. Simply pointing at friends and calling them a commission will undercut the legitimacy. I have no problems with a dream list, just with appointments being made in secret.
I agree with your suggestions and sincerely hope that the membership of this Council is thus chosen.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:13:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Restricting Appointed members (Proposal).
Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> I mean any group where the members are not selected transparently.
>
Okay, so we're really talking about transparency instead of secrecy. So
Lodewijk is preparing a list of possible PVC members. He may very well
have certain individuals in mind, but it would be wrong for him to make
his dream list public before he has had a chance to ask those
individuals whether they want to serve. If they refuse their names need
not be made public; that's a personal privacy matter. Doling out that
list one name at a time doesn't seem right either, so it's reasonable to
build up a reasonably functional list before making it public. Perhaps,
in the course of preparing that list he will realize that an important
point of view is unrepresented despite opportunities for people to
volunteer either publicly or privately. Individuals then need to be
actively sought to represent those views, but again, that is a
substantially private undertaking. Once he has made a list of
candidates public for approval by the Board there should still be
opportunities for people to voice an opinion on the candidates or to
propose new ones.
I don't think that a direct electoral process would work anyway,
especially not when we have not yet found agreement on who would
represent what, something which itself can't be done until the
Provisional Council has had the opportunity to narrow the options. That
would be an important topic that needs to be addressed in its report.
All that being said, how does it square with your vision of transparency?
Ec
> From: Ray Saintonge
>
> Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
>
>> Exactly. I for one will vigorously oppose any provisional group that operates in secrecy.
>>
> Then it comes down to what you mean by secrecy.
>
> Having every last bit of conversation out in the public doesn't work
> either. It's great to have this discussed on an open list, but that's
> not an effective environment for synthesizing a solution, because the
> level of noise and repetition gets too high. It often takes alternating
> periods of public consultation, and quiet building. Analogous to the
> scientific method, we develop hypotheses in small discussions, and test
> those hypotheses by asking for public input. The process is repeated as
> often as necessary. When we get close to agreement the public criticism
> diminishes.
>
> Take the relatively simple question of the size of the Volunteer
> council. The suggested numbers have ranged from 20 to 500. We can
> safely say that the optimal number is somewhere between those two. When
> it is discussed by the Provisional Council its members come to an agree
> settlement among themselves, and present reasons why they arrived at
> that number. That is then ready to go back to the public for further
> comment.
>
> Similar processes will happen for other issues that cannot be so easily
> defined.
>
> Ec
>
>> From: Ray Saintonge
>>
>> effe iets anders wrote:
>>
>>> although off topic here:
>>> because it gives a signal by the board that they are willing.
>>> because it gives a clear timeline
>>> because it gives a little pressure
>>> because this report would not be "just a report"
>>>
>>> BR, Lodewijk
>>>
>> Exactly. The idea of a Wikicouncil has been knocking about for a few
>> years already, and nothing has happened. Any group can get together to
>> talk about anything, but that does not give any credibility to the
>> report. If the Board passes a resolution to the effect that this is a
>> worthwhile initiative it has a tremendous effect on the credibility of
>> the report.
>>
>> It is not just about what some group wants to hash out. It is about
>> what the community wants hashed out. Making the proposal public when it
>> was has drawn a lot of comments from the community, including many
>> constructive ones. Is it not more community minded to put out the
>> proposal before debate, instead of after when it would be far more
>> difficult to make changes?
>>
>> The name really doesn't matter. We could spend a lot of time on the
>> semantic differences between "provisional council" and "steering
>> committee" for a group that would most likely not exist by the end of
>> the year. What difference would that make to any substantive result?
>>
>> Ec
>>
>>> 2008/3/17, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> Effe, if the purpose of this initial group is only to issue a report on
>>>> the need and viability and potential structure of a future group, why not
>>>> just have it be called a steering committee of some sort, organize the
>>>> people you think are helpful and interested, and issue a report with your
>>>> names on it after talking to other people and forming up some more fully
>>>> fleshed out ideas? Why go through the agita of a proposal and a debate and
>>>> all the rest, when what you really seem to want is to get a group of people
>>>> together to hash out what they want to propose - and then start the debate?
>>>>
>>>> Nathan
>>>>
>>>> On 3/17/08, effe iets anders <effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> as I said, there might be no need, even by your definition. It all
>>>>> depends
>>>>> on the report and whether accepted by the board. So please do not act
>>>>> hastely here and do not try to get everything done at once. Rome isn't
>>>>> biult on one day either.
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