Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>> Geni wrote:
>>
>>>>> "The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage
>>>>> people around the world " first line of the mission statement. By
>>>>> actively promoting minority languages you lock more people into them
>>>>> which is not consistent with trying to empower them.
>>>>>
>>
>> I wrote:
>>
>>>> I do not share geni's views at all.
>>>>
>>
>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't seem that anyone does...
>>>
>>
>>
>> I should add at the same time that I think that it is a good thing for
>> people to try to learn a relevant global language in addition to their
>> local language, with the choice depending upon personal context.
>>
>>
I think you are really being too humble here in not mentioning
the fact that despite being a native speaker of *the* global "lingua
franca" you have yourself made an effort to "talk the extra mile"
and learn other languages.
>> In many parts of the world and for many people, English is an excellent
>> choice of a second language. In other parts of the world (Francophone
>> Africa for example), French is an excellent choice. Chinese might be
>> good for some people. Russian for others. Hindi for others. There are
>> many variables.
>>
>> And I hope that Wikipedia is helpful to people both in learning about
>> the facts of reality (usually most comfortably done in your mother
>> tongue) and in learning another language. I don't see these goals as
>> being in competition at all, but rather mutually reinforcing.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>>
At your service,
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
I'm happy to mention that the board has authorized the foundation to
accept a significant grant, for which we just recently received the
funds. This is a restricted grant specifically for use on a project to
improve the MediaWiki software and the experience for new contributors.
Not that this is a direct result of recent discussions here, plenty of
people have mentioned the issue before, including Delphine as Ting
points out. As you may know, grants take more than a day or two to put
together, but it's relevant to mention anyway. I understand a press
release with more details will be going out in the next day or so.
While grants with restrictions should be considered with care (one
reason for the board to be involved), we've indicated for some time that
this is an issue the foundation feels strongly about addressing. As a
result, any hesitation was really more about the challenges involved in
executing the project. I don't know just how far this will carry us, but
since it focuses on the underlying software, I hope it will benefit more
than just "80% of our projects" - even the ones that don't need help, or
don't think they do. I encourage volunteers to get involved in
supporting the effort as the project moves forward.
This grant is also from a source that has provided a smaller amount of
funding before. It's gratifying when donors recognize the impact they
are having and decide they want to add to it.
--Michael Snow
Hoi,
Over the last weeks I have been rather active in promoting improved
usability for the MediaWiki software. What really got me going was learning
from a Wikimania presentation that a UNICEF usability study done in Tanzania
showed that 100% of the test subjects were unable to create a new article.
UNICEF has created extensions to improve on this, extensions that make a
difference. The fact that our usability is poor does not only hurt what some
call "minority languages". A professor in Austria I know, a veteran user of
software, was also hard pressed to collaborate on a wiki.
Our usability hurts all our projects. It hurts our smaller projects because
they do not have enough content and contributors. It hurts our big projects
because it excludes large demographies from contributing leading to bias and
hurting the NPOV of many articles. When we want to reach out, there is no
easier way then by making our software usable.
The CreatePage extension provides a first obvious step on the road towards a
more usable MediaWiki. Implementing only this one extension is a start. When
we have taken this direction towards more usability, many more issues will
arise. The CreatePage extension is best used in combination with a change in
the skin. The CreatePage extension allows for a user to select templates for
specific types of new articles. There are ways in which you can make editing
easier .....
What I propose is that those projects who are interested in improving their
usability ask the WMF to work with them on this. Given that usable software
should be understood, and given that this is somewhat experimental in nature
as well, it makes sense that project should localise the extensions first
before they qualify for an implementation. NB the CreatePage extension has
only eight messages.
What I propose is to have many and frequent updates. We should learn from
our experience and consequently move forward carefully but deliberately. It
is not acceptable that so many of our projects are failing. The UNICEF
studies explain why this is, the studies show how to improve on this. We
just have to apply the lessons learned. We just have to show that we can
apply the lessons learnt.
Thanks,
GerardM
Hi, we've entered December. Has my worry has come true, namely that interim discussion of localization would send the request to never-never land? It would be great if he.wikisource could be implemented :-)
In general, for those who are interested in the topic, information on the implementation of Flagged Reviews may be found at this page:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FlaggedRevs
In my opinion, priority should be given to custom implementation at as many wikis as possible. Only in this way can its long-term effectiveness be tested. Great resources were rightfully invested in creating this extension, which is (in my opinion) an essential part of the functionality of a wiki environment. It is also, on a cultural level, a necessary tool for improving public attitudes about the reliability of wiki projects.
(The latter reason is, especially, the reason we want it on he.wikisource. Only with a function like this can we convince certain organizations to make their texts open-content, by guaranteeing that an authoritative version will appear on the wiki website, not subject at all to vandalism or to well-meaning deprecation.)
So let's get it implemented as widely as possible and track its effectiveness!
Dovi
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Dovi, you're already in the queue which is being worked through; should
> be done within the next few days.
>
> - -- brion
Hey All--
There has been a lot of good feedback on the first set of site notices and we've taken those ideas and, I think, done a pretty good job of implementing fixes across projects and languages. The tech team has done fabulous work.
You can see a brief statistical summary of the Phase I notices here:
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2008/11/25/wikimedias-fundraiser-which-banners-cl…
Please feel free to comment in the blog. We're going to be doing some short term testing of some minor tweaks to the Phase I notices soon.
Which brings us to Phase 2. We are trying to juggle two separate concepts in designing the site notices: 1) we want our viewers and visitors to see and understand that their donations are important to the mission of Wikimedia Foundation and 2) we want our visitors to be stimulated into giving without being too disruptive.
As such, Phase 2 drafts can be found here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2008/design_drafts. We are
attempting to re-define the space in a different manner to encourage those who have not yet donated. The Quotes site notice will have 6 different quotes (all translated, we hope) rotated in. We will continue the same wiki project specific coding and current collapse/expand features that we have now. These are just drafts.
Please comment on the page or in the discussion section. I'm also happy to hear any suggestions that you might have. Post your designs or drafts as well.
Phase 2 notices will go live the week of December 1st...pending the time needed by our volunteer translators and the tech team.
Phase 3 (slate for mid December) will focus on an end-of-campaign push and might include video elements.
On a side note, we updated our comparative statistical presentation: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:FundraiserStatistics. These charts compare 2007 vs. 2008 including only gifts of less than or equal to $10,000.
-Rand Montoya
Head of Community Giving
--
Rand Montoya
Head of Community Giving
Wikimedia Foundation
www.wikimedia.org
Email: rand(a)wikimedia.org
Phone: 415.839.6885 x615
Fax: 415.882.0495
There are 732 editable wikis on Wikimedia and nearly all of them are
active in some way. Just a year ago, these wikis were getting hit by
loads of spambots and malbots and barely any community to fight them,
but since then we have seen changes in smaller wikis. Apart from maybe
15-20 wikis, I can safely say that most wikis are active and as Jimbo
mentioned somewhere, it will be good to learn another language as your
second tongue, preferably those that are spoken a lot more.We spend so
much time on these language wikipedias, we should atleast try to learn
something from it :)
On 12/2/08, foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
<foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Finn Rindahl)
> 2. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Fajro)
> 3. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Thomas Dalton)
> 4. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Thomas Dalton)
> 5. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Pedro Sanchez)
> 6. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Gerard Meijssen)
> 7. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Finn Rindahl)
> 8. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (geni)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:44:25 +0100
> From: "Finn Rindahl" <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <23e544110812011144x3701732ew17b253f88d27c599(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
> people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
> sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well - and
> thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as communicating
> with others in a (for them) foreign language.
>
> They may of course also learn the not so pleasant fact of reality that
> native English speakers unfortunately sometimes come across as a rather
> arrogant lot (an attitude also unfortunately often also adapted by
> dutch/scandinavians etc who often are more comfortable using English than
> other language groups - I've been arrogant myself at times)
>
> Finn Rindahl (mainly nowiki&commons)
>
> 2008/12/1 Michael Finney <finney.md(a)gmail.com>
>
>> Jimbo:
>> Thank you for your comments. As a person who manages a small wiki project
>> and two language forks from it, I found some of the comments very
>> disturbing... almost frightening that such exist. Your comments re-affirm
>> my
>> confidence in the Wikimedia Foundation and its purpose.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)wikia-inc.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Geni wrote:
>> > >>> "The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage
>> > >>> people around the world " first line of the mission statement. By
>> > >>> actively promoting minority languages you lock more people into them
>> > >>> which is not consistent with trying to empower them.
>> >
>> > I wrote:
>> > >> I do not share geni's views at all.
>> >
>> > Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> > > It doesn't seem that anyone does...
>> >
>> >
>> > I should add at the same time that I think that it is a good thing for
>> > people to try to learn a relevant global language in addition to their
>> > local language, with the choice depending upon personal context.
>> >
>> > In many parts of the world and for many people, English is an excellent
>> > choice of a second language. In other parts of the world (Francophone
>> > Africa for example), French is an excellent choice. Chinese might be
>> > good for some people. Russian for others. Hindi for others. There are
>> > many variables.
>> >
>> > And I hope that Wikipedia is helpful to people both in learning about
>> > the facts of reality (usually most comfortably done in your mother
>> > tongue) and in learning another language. I don't see these goals as
>> > being in competition at all, but rather mutually reinforcing.
>> >
>> > --Jimbo
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:45:07 -0200
> From: Fajro <faigos(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <78eaa86e0812011145q59c3589ct50c26c3ea013b9aa(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)wikia-inc.com> wrote:
>
>> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>> It doesn't seem that anyone does...
>>
>>
>> I should add at the same time that I think that it is a good thing for
>> people to try to learn a relevant global language in addition to their
>> local language, with the choice depending upon personal context.
>>
>> In many parts of the world and for many people, English is an excellent
>> choice of a second language. In other parts of the world (Francophone
>> Africa for example), French is an excellent choice. Chinese might be
>> good for some people. Russian for others. Hindi for others. There are
>> many variables.
>
> Don't forget Esperanto.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Michael Finney <finney.md(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jimbo:
>> Thank you for your comments. As a person who manages a small wiki project
>> and two language forks from it, I found some of the comments very
>> disturbing... almost frightening that such exist. Your comments re-affirm
>> my
>> confidence in the Wikimedia Foundation and its purpose.
>
> Some of those comments was openly promoting ethnocide and linguistic
> discrimination and aparently nobody noticed it.
>
> I knew that wikimedia was a little anglocentric, but this is too much.
>
> --
> ? ?ajro ?
> IM: fajro(a)jabber.org
> Lernu! - http://www.lernu.net
> Wikimedia Argentina - http://www.wikimedia.org.ar
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:48:13 +0000
> From: "Thomas Dalton" <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <a4359dff0812011148p5621873yf7d84dfc9a26c7a9(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>> Don't forget Esperanto.
>
> Since when has Esperanto been a global language? It was a failed
> attempt at creating one, that's all. There is very little point in
> anyone learning it except for the fun of it (if you enjoy that sort of
> thing).
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:48:49 +0000
> From: "Thomas Dalton" <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <a4359dff0812011148l2bc27619r6b5d999e292011a0(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2008/12/1 Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>:
>> I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here.
>
> I think you mean "echo" - to repeat what he said.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:51:35 -0600
> From: "Pedro Sanchez" <pdsanchez(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <9ac45b70812011151r69e71ff1u774702570c5fcad(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
>> people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
>> sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well -
>> and
>> thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as communicating
>> with others in a (for them) foreign language.
>
> An also a fair share of people who initially engage into enwip ant he
> alike, eventually decide to migrate to smaller projects.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:53:23 +0100
> From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <41a006820812011153k5071e06x13c67c5e4012e849(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hoi,
> When usability improvements are to be implemented, it will change the
> dynamics of a project. It is easy to argue why the smaller projects need
> more content and more contributors. It is also easy to argue the same for
> the bigger and biggest projects. When a skin becomes available with a BIG
> button saying "Create new article", there will be loud voices explaining why
> it is a bad idea. Arguments that make sense up to a point.
>
> It is important to start thinking in terms of: when it becomes easier to
> contribute to a MediaWiki project, what are the implications. I am of the
> opinion that this will be on balance beneficial. But that is just me.
>
> I have not been addressing the board. I am grateful if the board takes an
> interest but I would prefer it when the WMF organisation takes up the baton.
> At most and at best the board can give usability more of a priority, but I
> would not be surprised if the organisation is ready to give usability more
> priority without Board involvement. The timing would not be that bad as the
> new developers are getting experienced and I expect that most of the work
> associated with the fund raiser is done.
>
> If you are a developer, I would LOVE you to have a look at the code. I would
> love to see proposals for a skin that does include a "CreatePage" button. I
> would love you to fix the bugs that have been identified by MinuteElectron.
> I am sure that there is enough that you can do to make usability an issue
> that we are now starting to address.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2008/12/1 Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com>
>
>> Thanks for that, Gerard. In other terms I suppose my question would be
>> this:
>> You've identified a problem (usability, particularly in languages with the
>> smallest or least technologically wealthy communities) and a partial
>> solution (usability extensions developed by UNICEF). Your post, though,
>> had
>> the tone of hoping that readers would offer assistance of some sort - so
>> what assistance would you like? Was your post aimed primarily at the
>> Board,
>> or is there something that other people could be doing as well?
>>
>> Nathan
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Gerard Meijssen
>> <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> > Hoi,
>> > The software has been tested but not all extensions are considered ready
>> > for
>> > WMF production. I am establishing contacts with, among others, people at
>> > UNICEF to make sure that we identify the outstanding issues carefully
>> > and
>> > fix them efficiently. Given that the CreatePage extension requires
>> changes
>> > to the skin, it may make sense to consider using a superset of monobook
>> (I
>> > do not know how feasible this is).
>> >
>> > Given that the software is already being localised at Betawiki, we do
>> > not
>> > need to restrict ourselves to English. I understand that UNICEF uses
>> > some
>> > of
>> > their software in Swahili :) I would love to consider Swahili for this
>> ...
>> > Kennisnet is interested in this functionality, that would make Dutch an
>> > option. It needs to be clear that it is not only Wikipedia projects that
>> > will benefit.
>> >
>> > The benefits from a more useable interface have little to do with a
>> > "simple"
>> > approach. Newbies are not able to contribute. Our need for more
>> > contributors
>> > and content is most dire in our smallest projects. Personally I am not
>> that
>> > interested in using "simple" as a test environment. From my perspective,
>> it
>> > should be there for all the projects that want it. Obviously, when this
>> > extension is localised first, it will be more effective.
>> >
>> > When we are to test this in a Wikimedia Wiki, we need to get involvement
>> > from Brion. It would help a lot when the WMF actively takes part in this
>> > collaboration and make usability a priority.
>> > Thanks,
>> > GerardM
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:02:34 +0100
> From: "Finn Rindahl" <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <23e544110812011202p73ea39a8v9effa24b44b8d11b(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> @Pedro :Yep, it's a two way interaction that I believe benefits all projects
> (sort of human interwiki)
>
> @Thomas:Echo would be the English word, thanks. "Ecco" however is also
> correct eEnglish, ref.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guerilla_non-eEnglish_spelling_and_grammar_c….
> (Note to self: Irony should be avvoided in online communication, especially
> when writing foreignly)
>
> @Gerard: Yes, there will be a lot of loud voices, but in the end we'll
> manage to work out this as an improvement to help new (and perhaps older)
> users as well. There was A LOT of load voices at Commons when (what I still
> hope is) a more userfriendly uploadsystem was launched, but it seems to be
> working just fine ;)
>
> We may get more nonsense articles going straight to speedy deletion, but the
> way to raise the quality of wikip/media is certainly not to avvoid maiking
> it easier for people to edit,
>
> Finn R
>
> 2008/12/1 Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez(a)gmail.com>
>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
>> > people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
>> > sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well -
>> and
>> > thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as
>> communicating
>> > with others in a (for them) foreign language.
>>
>> An also a fair share of people who initially engage into enwip ant he
>> alike, eventually decide to migrate to smaller projects.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:11:19 +0000
> From: geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <f80608430812011211l148b4b48sde52fd4c92cc5ca3(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> 2008/12/1 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>:
>> Hoi,
>> There is no point in usability studies when the lessons learned are not
>> applied. At the Boston Wikimania there was another person who had done
>> studies on usability and MediaWiki. She even presented about it at the
>> "Hacker days"...
>
> The problem is the info tends to be around it an easy to access and search
> form.
>
>> As to Commons, it is effectively useless to the people that do not speak
>> English.
>
> Really? Even with the extensive uselang stuff in say german?
>
>
> --
> geni
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> End of foundation-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 8
> *******************************************
>
--
Cometstyles
English -> English dump
> Because myself and others have been frustrated by the lack of good
> stats on the number of active editors on the English Wikipedia, I have
> compiled some stats on the editing frequency on enwiki:
No worries: in only 176 days from now the English dump will be ready and I
can run wikistats scripts on it.
It just started 52 days ago, so let us be patient for a while ;)
http://www.infodisiac.com/cgi-bin/WikimediaDownload.pl
Nice stats though!
Erik Zachte
Because myself and others have been frustrated by the lack of good
stats on the number of active editors on the English Wikipedia, I have
compiled some stats on the editing frequency on enwiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_frequency
I am going to forgo any extensive analysis for now. But I will say
that these trends mostly mirror trends seen elsewhere, with a peak in
early 2007 followed by a decline and then leveling out as we go
towards the present.
In September, 130,000 registered users and 525,000 anons made at least
one edit to an article. If you define "active editors" as those
making at least 20 article edits per month then 14000 registered users
and 6000 anons met that threshold in September.
-Robert Rohde
