There are 732 editable wikis on Wikimedia and nearly all of them are
active in some way. Just a year ago, these wikis were getting hit by
loads of spambots and malbots and barely any community to fight them,
but since then we have seen changes in smaller wikis. Apart from maybe
15-20 wikis, I can safely say that most wikis are active and as Jimbo
mentioned somewhere, it will be good to learn another language as your
second tongue, preferably those that are spoken a lot more.We spend so
much time on these language wikipedias, we should atleast try to learn
something from it :)
On 12/2/08, foundation-l-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Finn Rindahl)
2. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Fajro)
3. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Thomas Dalton)
4. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Thomas Dalton)
5. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Pedro Sanchez)
6. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Gerard Meijssen)
7. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (Finn Rindahl)
8. Re: 80% of our projects are failing (geni)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:44:25 +0100
From: "Finn Rindahl" <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
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I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well - and
thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as communicating
with others in a (for them) foreign language.
They may of course also learn the not so pleasant fact of reality that
native English speakers unfortunately sometimes come across as a rather
arrogant lot (an attitude also unfortunately often also adapted by
dutch/scandinavians etc who often are more comfortable using English than
other language groups - I've been arrogant myself at times)
Finn Rindahl (mainly nowiki&commons)
2008/12/1 Michael Finney <finney.md(a)gmail.com>
Jimbo:
Thank you for your comments. As a person who manages a small wiki project
and two language forks from it, I found some of the comments very
disturbing... almost frightening that such exist. Your comments re-affirm
my
confidence in the Wikimedia Foundation and its purpose.
Thanks.
Mike
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)wikia-inc.com> wrote:
Geni wrote:
>> "The mission of the Wikimedia
Foundation is to empower and engage
>> people around the world " first line of the mission statement. By
>> actively promoting minority languages you lock more people into them
>> which is not consistent with trying to empower them.
I wrote:
> I do not share geni's views at all.
Thomas Dalton wrote:
It doesn't seem that anyone does...
I should add at the same time that I think that it is a good thing for
people to try to learn a relevant global language in addition to their
local language, with the choice depending upon personal context.
In many parts of the world and for many people, English is an excellent
choice of a second language. In other parts of the world (Francophone
Africa for example), French is an excellent choice. Chinese might be
good for some people. Russian for others. Hindi for others. There are
many variables.
And I hope that Wikipedia is helpful to people both in learning about
the facts of reality (usually most comfortably done in your mother
tongue) and in learning another language. I don't see these goals as
being in competition at all, but rather mutually reinforcing.
--Jimbo
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:45:07 -0200
From: Fajro <faigos(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
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On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales(a)wikia-inc.com> wrote:
Thomas Dalton wrote:
It doesn't seem that anyone does...
I should add at the same time that I think that it is a good thing for
people to try to learn a relevant global language in addition to their
local language, with the choice depending upon personal context.
In many parts of the world and for many people, English is an excellent
choice of a second language. In other parts of the world (Francophone
Africa for example), French is an excellent choice. Chinese might be
good for some people. Russian for others. Hindi for others. There are
many variables.
Don't forget Esperanto.
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Michael Finney <finney.md(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Jimbo:
Thank you for your comments. As a person who manages a small wiki project
and two language forks from it, I found some of the comments very
disturbing... almost frightening that such exist. Your comments re-affirm
my
confidence in the Wikimedia Foundation and its purpose.
Some of those comments was openly promoting ethnocide and linguistic
discrimination and aparently nobody noticed it.
I knew that wikimedia was a little anglocentric, but this is too much.
--
? ?ajro ?
IM: fajro(a)jabber.org
Lernu! -
http://www.lernu.net
Wikimedia Argentina -
http://www.wikimedia.org.ar
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:48:13 +0000
From: "Thomas Dalton" <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
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Don't forget Esperanto.
Since when has Esperanto been a global language? It was a failed
attempt at creating one, that's all. There is very little point in
anyone learning it except for the fun of it (if you enjoy that sort of
thing).
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:48:49 +0000
From: "Thomas Dalton" <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
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2008/12/1 Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>om>:
I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish
word..?) Michael Finney here.
I think you mean "echo" - to repeat what he said.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:51:35 -0600
From: "Pedro Sanchez" <pdsanchez(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
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On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Finn Rindahl <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish
word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well -
and
thus both learn more about the "facts of reality" as well as communicating
with others in a (for them) foreign language.
An also a fair share of people who initially engage into enwip ant he
alike, eventually decide to migrate to smaller projects.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:53:23 +0100
From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
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Hoi,
When usability improvements are to be implemented, it will change the
dynamics of a project. It is easy to argue why the smaller projects need
more content and more contributors. It is also easy to argue the same for
the bigger and biggest projects. When a skin becomes available with a BIG
button saying "Create new article", there will be loud voices explaining why
it is a bad idea. Arguments that make sense up to a point.
It is important to start thinking in terms of: when it becomes easier to
contribute to a MediaWiki project, what are the implications. I am of the
opinion that this will be on balance beneficial. But that is just me.
I have not been addressing the board. I am grateful if the board takes an
interest but I would prefer it when the WMF organisation takes up the baton.
At most and at best the board can give usability more of a priority, but I
would not be surprised if the organisation is ready to give usability more
priority without Board involvement. The timing would not be that bad as the
new developers are getting experienced and I expect that most of the work
associated with the fund raiser is done.
If you are a developer, I would LOVE you to have a look at the code. I would
love to see proposals for a skin that does include a "CreatePage" button. I
would love you to fix the bugs that have been identified by MinuteElectron.
I am sure that there is enough that you can do to make usability an issue
that we are now starting to address.
Thanks,
GerardM
2008/12/1 Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com>
Thanks for that, Gerard. In other terms I suppose
my question would be
this:
You've identified a problem (usability, particularly in languages with the
smallest or least technologically wealthy communities) and a partial
solution (usability extensions developed by UNICEF). Your post, though,
had
the tone of hoping that readers would offer assistance of some sort - so
what assistance would you like? Was your post aimed primarily at the
Board,
or is there something that other people could be doing as well?
Nathan
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Hoi,
The software has been tested but not all extensions are considered ready
for
WMF production. I am establishing contacts with, among others, people at
UNICEF to make sure that we identify the outstanding issues carefully
and
fix them efficiently. Given that the CreatePage extension requires
changes
to the skin, it may make sense to consider using
a superset of monobook
(I
do not know how feasible this is).
Given that the software is already being localised at Betawiki, we do
not
need to restrict ourselves to English. I understand that UNICEF uses
some
of
their software in Swahili :) I would love to consider Swahili for this
...
Kennisnet is interested in this functionality,
that would make Dutch an
option. It needs to be clear that it is not only Wikipedia projects that
will benefit.
The benefits from a more useable interface have little to do with a
"simple"
approach. Newbies are not able to contribute. Our need for more
contributors
and content is most dire in our smallest projects. Personally I am not
that
interested in using "simple" as a test
environment. From my perspective,
it
should be there for all the projects that want
it. Obviously, when this
extension is localised first, it will be more effective.
When we are to test this in a Wikimedia Wiki, we need to get involvement
from Brion. It would help a lot when the WMF actively takes part in this
collaboration and make usability a priority.
Thanks,
GerardM
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:02:34 +0100
From: "Finn Rindahl" <finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
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@Pedro :Yep, it's a two way interaction that I believe benefits all projects
(sort of human interwiki)
@Thomas:Echo would be the English word, thanks. "Ecco" however is also
correct eEnglish, ref.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guerilla_non-eEnglish_spelling_and_grammar_c….
(Note to self: Irony should be avvoided in online communication, especially
when writing foreignly)
@Gerard: Yes, there will be a lot of loud voices, but in the end we'll
manage to work out this as an improvement to help new (and perhaps older)
users as well. There was A LOT of load voices at Commons when (what I still
hope is) a more userfriendly uploadsystem was launched, but it seems to be
working just fine ;)
We may get more nonsense articles going straight to speedy deletion, but the
way to raise the quality of wikip/media is certainly not to avvoid maiking
it easier for people to edit,
Finn R
2008/12/1 Pedro Sanchez <pdsanchez(a)gmail.com>
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Finn Rindahl
<finnrindwiki(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I'd like to ecco (is that an eEnglish
word..?) Michael Finney here. Most
people who engage them self in a small language wikimedia projects will
sooner or later participate in projects like en:wp and commons as well -
and
thus both learn more about the "facts of
reality" as well as
communicating
with others in a (for them) foreign language.
An also a fair share of people who initially engage into enwip ant he
alike, eventually decide to migrate to smaller projects.
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:11:19 +0000
From: geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
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2008/12/1 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:
Hoi,
There is no point in usability studies when the lessons learned are not
applied. At the Boston Wikimania there was another person who had done
studies on usability and MediaWiki. She even presented about it at the
"Hacker days"...
The problem is the info tends to be around it an easy to access and search
form.
As to Commons, it is effectively useless to the
people that do not speak
English.
Really? Even with the extensive uselang stuff in say german?
--
geni
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